JUGGERNAUT

If it's implied how do you not know about it?

That's not a reference to a MLB rule. It's nearly the same reference as the ESPN one. Perhaps I didn't state it clear enough before so I'll make it indisputable this time: When a team has exhausted it's right to withdraw a player from waivers the act of putting the player on waivers is irrevocable. Anybody find a Rule 10 reference yet? Play time is getting tedious.

Why would they report something that is implied by the rules?

If you guarantee it then I would expect you to certainly have proof of it Let's recap this debate so we know where it stands. We both agree that a player can be placed, withdrawn, or clear waivers without it being reported SO LONG AS it does not change that player's status as it pertains to their being on the 25 man or 40 man roster. Where we disagree is that you believe most (601+) players are put on waivers from Aug 1st to Sep 1st 12AM EST & I do not. You have offered no factual evidence to support your assertion & I have offered factual evidence opposing your assertion. Neither of us have provided indisputable evidence which is why the debate lingers on. But common sense would strongly suggest that given the public interest & value of such information when marquee players are put on waivers someone is going to write about it. On a side note, if such information is confidential wouldn't there be an uproar when Levine reports that KGJ is on waivers? Didn't Kevin Shea say that such information is confidential in MLB rules &/or the CBA? So who's crapping who? I skimmed the CBA & didn't find anything about confidentiality of waivers.

You people are sad. It's IMPLIED that during THIS waiver period any team seeking to trade a player must first CLEAR that player thru waivers. Just as it is IMPLIED that any player out of minor league options during ANY waiver period must CLEAR waivers to be DFA'd. The rest is common sense. 08/05/05 - Cubs DFA Remlinger. DFA w/out ml options = MUST clear waivers. Bus day 1. 08/09/05 - RSox complete trade for Remlinger. 3rd bus days. The Cubs & RSox worked a trade out for Remlinger prior to the Cubs DFA'g him. The RSox claimed him off waivers but had to wait it out for any competing claims. After the close of the 3rd bus day RSox completed the trade.

I will be kind in my reply & give an example of your logic: A: A is a fact because I told you so. B: A is not a fact because I told you so. A: It is too a fact because you can't prove it's not. B: It is not a fact because you can't prove it is. And so A & B argue endlessly without being able to prove anything. What's the point? With respect to Moyer why was he put on waivers? To facilitate a trade to the NYY$. He was not put on waivers just to gauge interest. The two GM's had talked over the trade parameters prior to Seattle putting him on waivers. This is common sense stuff.

With respect to waivers the CBA makes reference to MLB Rule 10. If you can find information pertaining to that rule that should end this debate. There is no mention of irrevocable waivers in the CBA or any official document I've been able to find in MLB. I will always believe official documents over ESPN news reports. Reporters make mistakes all the time. That's why they print corrections.

That's a DIFFERENT waiver period altogether! We are talking REGULAR season!

This is too easy If it never gets reported then what basis do you have for your statement? How do you know that Frank has been put on waivers repeatedly? Where did you get that information if it was never reported? Let's try to use common sense here. If a player is placed on waivers then all MLB teams know about it as does the player's union & player himself. There is no confidentiality agreement governing this information. So it's ridiculous to suggest ALL or even most marquee players get put on waivers & no one ever reports it. Put another way, if the NYY$ put A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, Randy Johnson, or Mike Mussina on waivers do you really believe not one NY reporter would write about it?

It helps to know what you talking about when you throw out a new term There is no such thing as irrevocable waivers, but there are limits to how many time's a team can withdraw a player during multiple waiver periods. I'm not certain but that might be what happened with Manny. If you clear waivers in one period & then your team puts you out on waivers in another period they can't withdraw you from waivers. There might be one other instance of withdrawal in between there. So unless you have something more substantial to offer in your belief that at least 601 players are put on waivers during this period your statement remains ridiculous.

I'd be willing to accept the reasoning that a team can place a player on waivers & then withdraw him before the 3 days & it never gets reported. That seems reasonable since no action occurs with respect to that player. I doubt very much that GM's do that with all their players because the player's agents would find out about it. But if the player is then DFA'd, claimed, or traded then that transaction would definitely be reported. In the case of marquee player's like Manny we've already seen that the act of a team placing such a player on waiver's gets reported. That's the main reason why I don't believe KGJ has been put on waivers. How could such an act escape reporters in NY? How could Levine be the only one to report about it? It makes no sense.

You can look thru the MLB transaction logs for previous years and search on DFA or clear to see where it's reported. The main reason why I don't believe Levine is telling the truth is because when Manny was put on waivers by BOS last year it was BIG news. Every major news circuit reported it. I would think KGJ being put on waivers would be just as big. Yet I can't even find a Cincy source reporting it.

No it doesn't. Unless he wants to name names it's just heresay. Secondly 150 players represents about 13% of MLB players on 40 man rosters. A far cry from EVERYONE. Other GM's that have been interviewed on the subject have said it's rare for teams to block. It's considered reasonable by contenders but definitely would be frowned upon by the league if a non-contender did it. Teams do not use the waiver wire to guage interest. They use it to dump salaries or DFA a player in the course of the season. During the course of the ENTIRE season it's reasonable to suggest that has many as 20% might get put on waivers but most of them are put there because they are out of ml options and a team seeks to DFA them.

Griffey is owed $30M in deferred payments on top of the remaining guaranteed years of his contract. Which means if the NYY$ were to claim him their luxury tax assessment would be hit by what he's making this year & a portion of the value of those deferred payments. That's simply too much to even expect the NYY$ to take on. As for the other teams you mentioned the Cubs & Giants are out of the race. They can get KGJ for 2006 for a much lower price than claiming him off waivers. The same applies to BAL which is practically out of the race. Adding a bat won't help thier recent pitching woes. Which leaves SDP, & WAS as potential suitors. I don't think either team has that kind of $ to spend on an often injured player they must play in the field.

You have to understand the relationship between DFA & waivers. Unless the player has ml options left he must first clear waivers before being DFA'd. Remlinger has no ml options left. In the transaction log: 8/5/05 Chicago Cubs ...and designated LHP Mike Remlinger for assignment. 8/9/05 Boston Red Sox ...Acquired LHP Mike Remlinger and cash considerations from the Chicago Cubs for Minor League RHP Olivo Astacio. Activated LHP Mike Remlinger. Now what happened for this trade to happen? Boston put in a claim when he was placed on waivers. Both teams had to wait for 3 business days to pass to see if any lower standing team puts in a claim. After the 3 days Boston is awarded the claim. The Cubs can either withdraw the claim or proceed with a trade.

Player's clearing waivers show up in the transaction reports. If KGJ is either claimed, withdrawn, or cleared of waivers it will be reported in MLB transactions. Some more info: The salary of a player claimed off waivers DOES count towards the luxary tax assessment for that year. So KGJ's $41M will cost the NYY$ & BOS much more than other teams. The most any team has ever claimed salary wise in a so-called block move is $14M. That's the infamous SDP Randy Myer's claim. A far cry from the $41M owed KGJ. I highly doubt Levine was telling the truth. It makes no sense that the owner would approve the GM putting him on waivers to dump $15M/3yr & risk getting 0 talent in return.

The official link: http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf I've not found anything suggesting a limit on the number of times a team can put a player on waivers & withdraw him. But if they do put him on waivers & he clears he's then considered cleared for the entire waiver period. In this case the rest of Aug.

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/spo/mlbpa/mlbpa_cba.pdf F. Waivers Any assignment of a Player contract must conform to the rules regarding waivers contained in Major League Rule 10. In addition, each Friday, not later than 3 P.M. E.D.T., the Office of the Commissioner shall notify the Player's Association, by facsimile transmission, of all waiver requests and their disposition. Notification shall include: (1) the date on which the waiver request was made; (2) the date of expiration of the waiver period; (3) if the waiver period has expired, whether or not claims were filed; (4) if claims are not filed, the period for which waivers have been granted; and (5) if claims were filed, whether or not the Club requesting waivers has withdrawn its request. In the event claims were filed and the Club requesting waivers has withdrawn its request, the Office of the Commissioner need not identify the claiming Club or Clubs. Translation: By Friday 2PM CDT we will know if Levine was telling the truth or not about Griffey Jr being placed on waivers this week.

The mass confusion in this thread is getting ridiculous (every player on every team being put on waivers ). http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/spo/mlbpa/mlbpa_cba.pdf

The point is obvious: Heathens, atheists, & communists are responsible for the VAST majority of murder in human history. An estimated 160 million & counting.

Levine is full of crap. He's not on the waiver list. That's makes ZERO sense. The owner vetoes a trade before the deadline but ok's putting KGJ out on waivers just to dump his contract? Levine's an idiot. If he is on waivers it's 3 days. If after 3 days no one claim's him then the Reds can work a trade directly with the White Sox.

Looking at the MLB transaction list it appears that a player gets put on the waiver wire when a team designates him for assignment. There is no "put on waivers" transaction. If another team claims him off waivers that day they'll forgo the report of the player being designated for assignment & just report the team claiming the player off waivers & the trade being worked out. Levine seems to have gotten it wrong again. If KGJ has been DFA'd then I don't believe he would have been eligible to play in today's game. His 2 RBI day says otherwise.

That was reported in the USA Today as well. He has a home in Orlando where his family spends their off-season time. But I don't think ST will be a problem because you can take the family with you. Nearly all of the ST games are in the Tucson-Pheonix area & the weather is not bad that time of year. There are two other reports this week that could have bearing on this trade. The first is a report that the Reds GM will be fired this winter. The second is that the 4 OF crew is not happy. All 4 players are good enough to start on other teams. They can't see this situation existing in 2006. The money of the deal is essentially the White Sox are on the hook for $30M/3 yr. That's salary + 2009 buyout option. The talent of the deal was Young, Rogowski, & prospects. All but the Reds owner Carl Linder approved the deal. It is said that Reds President Allen continues to talk to Linder about re-visiting the deal. As for Griffey Jr he reportedly approved the trade. His short list (believed to be NYY, ATL, & HOU) all do their spring thing near Orlando but I'm sure the White Sox can talk Griffey Jr into bringing the family to Tucson for those 6 weeks. The feeling of the deal is that $20-23M/yr spent on Griffey+Kong for those 3 yrs in addition to the team we have now would make the White Sox serious WS contenders. The two would share duties at 1B+DH. The only question then would be to pick up Everett's option for $7M. If the White Sox win the WS that goes w/out question. As for Thomas' role in all this it might be the best thing for him to sit out a whole year & then try it again in 2007. I think it goes w/out saying the White Sox will give him a WS ring if the team should win it & they still would like to see him hit his 500th HR as a White Sox. Thomas might just sign a ml contract in 2006 during which he tries to rehab the ankle. Because Everett, Griffey Jr, & Thomas have all proven to be injury prone of late keeping them all in the organization is good insurance.

Trade-wise: We have to face the reality of having the best record in MLB. Anybody we would want that doesn't cost a whole lot to get is not available to us. That leaves KGJ & Thome the only likely candidates. With KGJ you have to entice the Reds CEO to trade him & then make the best offer amongst contenders. With Thome you just have to make the best offer. But then again if Thome is worth getting he might just be worth keeping to the Phillies. So we should prepare for the possibility that our ml's may be the only source for new strength in the stick. If you don't know them already allow me to introduce them to you: AAA Roosevelt Brown : age 30, 279 ab, 37 rbi, 133 tb, 32 bb, 40 K, .366O, .477S, .294A, 1E AA Jerry Owens: age 24, 404 ab, 38 rbi, 162 tb, 40 b, 58 k, 31/47 sb, .398O, .401S, .339A, 2E Owens looks like the proto-typical Ozzie player: fast, good glove, & nice stick. Roosevelt won't give you Owens speed but he looks more ready to make the jump. Both in my opinion offer the team more than Timo does.

The White Sox originally offered to pay all but $15M of the $$$ owed to Griffey. So my guess is as Griffey continues to hit multi-rbi HR's the White Sox are thinking of absorbing the $15M & upping the talent cost as well. The Reds have no obligation to trade Griffey which means the White Sox have to entice that CEO to make the trade. As for clearing waivers that's where his price tag favors the White Sox. All the scouts that have weighed in on the issue believe he will definitely clear waivers should the Reds put him on waivers. Short of getting Griffey we need more LH bats in the lineup & we need to move Uribe. He's not going to break out hitting 9th. He had a breakout Aug & Sep last year hitting #2 in the lineup. You expect a struggling hitter to give himself up to move the runner over. It's foolish to push that role on your hottest bat. SP: MB, FG, JG, JC, OH. RP:LV, NC, CP, DM, DH, BJ, JA The extra arm weakens the bench. Adkins was last used Aug 2nd. That's a waste. It's also a sign the SP is becoming dominant again. It's a tough decision to make. Lineup change w/out KGJ: Pods-Uribe-Iguchi-Kong-Rowand-DH-Dye-AJ-Crede DH candidates from bench: Everett, Widger, Blum, Perez The only flexibility you have is Perez. He's expendable. ml candidates: Roosevelt Brown : age 30, 279 ab, 37 rbi, 133 tb, 32 bb, 40 K, .366O, .477S, .294A, 1E Jerry Owens: age 24, 404 ab, 38 rbi, 162 tb, 40 b, 58 k, 31/47 sb, .398O, .401S, .339A, 2E Even though it will cost us an option I say bring Owens up now. Even if he struggles at the plate he still has a good glove & solid speed to be a better PR than Perez. 404 ab in AA is enough for one season. I say spend the option & bring up Owens now. If he gets hot then KW doesn't need to trade for another bat that isn't KGJ. If he's cold then KW might be able to entice Philly into dumping Thome. That's another contract that should clear waivers if Philly should put him on waivers. Thome played as a DH in an A game this week as he continues his rehab assignment. Both Thome & Griffey Jr are unique options for the White Sox because as long as Chicago agrees to pay more of the contract than the other teams these players should clear waivers.