JUGGERNAUT

Allow me to throw a counter-opinion. CWS 05 vs LHers: .291/.820 CWS 05 vs RHers: .251/.717 CWS 04 vs LHers: .261/.789 CWS 04 vs RHers: .270/.790 CWS 04 Aug&Sep: http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batt...Type=2&type=reg Now consider the A's: OAK 05 vs LHers: .282/.777 OAK 05 vs RHers: .258/.724 Here's my point. I think most of us would agree this year's bats in the 2nd half have more potential than last yr's. Do you really believe that the CWS will finish .251/.717 vs RHers before the season is done?

FLM: Do you want Burnett? Take Lowell & his $18M/2yr. Sox names: Marte, Contra, Crede, BMac (mix & match) SFG: Giant scouts following WSox. LHer Eyre interests WSox. PITT: Redman to FLM to replace Burnett? Perhaps this is where Crede's name has popped up. 3-team-deal? TBD: LH OF/DH (as if we didn't have enough of them) Huff interests the WSox. PHI: Wagner interests every contender in the AL because the Phils have Urbina as well. It makes no sense to keep them both. They covet Burnett & will meet his price so see FLM. What would he cost long term? He turned down an extension for $21M/3 last yr. Having served some DL time it might be $16M/2 now. CIN: Griffey. It's WSox vs NYY$ here, but the NYY$ have s*** to trade with. It's been reported that CIN is prepared to pick up a substantial chunk of his contract which I suspect is the deferred $ they already owe him. Note: Nevin rejected the BAL trade. I guess that throws them in the mix for Burnett again too. Update NLE L10: ATL(5-5), WAS(3-7), PHI(6-4) & 3 gb div/wc, METS(6-4), FLM(5-5) & 4.5 gb div/wc. Update NLW L10: SDP(2-8), AZD(4-6) & 3 gb of div, LAD(5-5), SFG(4-6) & 7.5 gb div. * When the guys on top look vulnerable your hopes of getting back in soar. That's why teams are reluctant to deal.

I think FL is just holding so they can see if one more solid start from Burnett can up the price from BOS.

It sounds to me the original deal after BAL fell thru was Marte+BMac for Burnett. But after Sun's game the NLWC standings tightened up: Atlanta 0 gb Washington 0 gb Philadelphia 3 gb NY Mets 3.5 gb Houston 3.5 gb Chi Cubs 4.5 gb Florida 4.5 gb There are plenty of games left between those ball games which mean it's anybody's to win yet. Suddenly FL started thinking about this year as much as next year & said you got to give us Contreras. KW was caught off guard on that & discussed it with Ozzie & the front office as to what to do. They came back with the idea of Lowell but the Marlins have to pick up 1/2. The Marlins are weighing paying 1/2 against trying to entice a team like BOS to make them a better off. That's why we're on hold.

Contrary to public opinion there is a limit to what BOS & NYY can spend. The NYY stand at $209M, & BOS stands at $130M. I think the most Burnett can hope to get is $30M/3 yrs. That's more than Clement got from BOS & he was a more accomplished pitcher. Cashman is already on record as saying they are not interested in Burnett so that takes a major player out of the FA equation. I'm still skeptical on this guy but it's Ozzie's team, the team is 30+ gm over .500, & Ozzie believes in the guy. So what the hell do I know

If the Giants were to make that trade then Deivi Cruz would fill out the year for them at SS & they would want a guy who could challenge in ST for the starting role. I think they would be looking at 23 yr old, Angel Gonzalez. The guy is top 30 in avg & rbi in the Southern League. I'm not sure where he ranks fielding wise but his numbers hitting wise are too good to overlook. The trade from their perspective enables them to say they are still going for the NLW title this year & building for next year. From our perspective we strengthen our bench with Uribe (goodbye Ozuna), we help fill our weakness vs RHers with Vizquel, & of course we have the best .500 pitcher $ can buy in Burnett I'm sure KW will get Villone to replace Marte if the Burnett trade gets done. I'm not worried about Hermanson tiring out before the playoffs because once the White Sox clinch the division (MN down to 54) I think Ozzie will try to groom Jenks into the role & use Hermanson sparingly. If KW gets all that done then I would say we're the favorites to win the WS.

Having scoured the net for information here is what I have found: The only media sites having ever suggested Contreras+BMac+Marte for just Burnett are Florida newspaper sites. So I would disregard that report. Media sites pertaining to Boston, Chicago, Oakland, LA, SEA, & SF have 3 options: BMac + Marte for Burnett Contreras + Marte for Burnett Contreras + BMac + Marte for Burnett + something else. I could not find what that something else was but none of the sights suggested it was Lowell. They did discuss the issue of Florida wanting to get a starter in return to fill the whole left by Burnett. Contract wise: Marte 500K 05, $2.25M 06, 500K buyout 07. Contreras $2.8M left 05, $8M 06. Burnett $1.5M left 05, FA 06. Lowell Signed a $3M left 05, $18M/2yr 06, 07. $-wise 05,06 are a wash. So it's a question of how of Lowell's last yr will the Marlins pick up. Figure they split the difference or $5M. This is just speculation but that would make it Contreras+BMac+Marte FOR Burnett+Lowell+$5M Which Lowell are we getting? Mike Lowell 04 vs LH: .344/1.101, vs RH: .279/.807 Mike Lowell 05 vs LH: .343/.952 vs RH: .204/.562, Jul .294/.809 He's had 5 hitless games in Jul all against RHers. He's had 3 3 hit games in Jul all against LHers. Those Jul numbers are probably just a stretch of LHers coming his way. I don't want Lowell but maybe the Giants would have an interest at a reduced price. If KW could then swing Lowell+SS prospect for Vizquel it looks better. Contreras+BMac+Marte FOR Burnett+Vizquel. Add Villone to the pen & I think KW's done the best job he could.

Let's keep this thread confined to the realm of politics for which it was created.

I've created another thread to debate the value of atheism as a philosophy of life. I've gotten tired of this thread diverging from the near future of politics & law in America. That's the focus of the thread in case you couldn't figure it out. Algebra comes natural to some of us & others struggle mightily. You're forgiven

For atheists who are clueless mathematics is what governs my faith. Not what some man of the cloth thinks or says. I choose to beleive because I have found harmony in my vast knowledge of mathematics & science with that of my knowledge in Christianity. I can write 1000's of pages correlating the three but that would be pointless here because many of you don't value mathematics or science as I do. I have yet to find one scientific fact or mathematical premise that contradicts my interpretation of the Word of God. If you choose to challenge that do it in another thread. Likewise since my foundation lies in math & science I am able to converge other faiths to that same foundation just like my peers do in Asia. We have found spiritual harmony in our love of math & science & we probably will grow to be the biggest threat atheism could ever imagine.

Ignorant to no end. Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduists, & Protestants make up over 5 billion registered believers in the world today. The Muslims were expected to overtake the Catholics but Africa has seen an upsurge in new Catholics to where Muslims are still a few 100 million behind them. In Japan alone (a nation of 120M souls) there are over 100M Buddhists. Japan represents the future of religion. What is happening there is a convergence of faiths. There are many Buddhists that send their sons & daughters to Catholic schools & have them participate in the sacraments. There have been several books written up on this phenomenon & the consensus is that it is the family oriented aspect of the sacraments that is appealing to many Japanese. Every sacrament is celebrated with a family reunion. The Japanese Catholic churches incorporate elements of Buddhism into their mass structure for these sacraments. The same thing is happening in Korea, Singapore, Vietnam, India, & yes China. Catholic Church registration with the communist party of China is growing quickly. The Vatican may not like this flavor of Catholicism but that is not stopping it's growth. These were traditionally the bastions of atheism & they are weakening. That is why your statement is ignorant to no end. Atheism is never going to be the norm. Get used to it. Religion will always be a tool by which those in power can sway the masses. Those in power will never give that up. Even the communist party in China understands this.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/misc/first_amendment.html I suggest you read it. There is such a thing as a FREE EXERCISE CLAUSE & if you study the background of the authors it would strongly suggest they would favor liberty over censorship. But again that HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD! Let me simplify this for the masses. Look over the legislative records of the Democrats & Republicans on issues of faith & religion. It's blatantly obvious to any one with an adult level of reading comprehension that the GOP would be considered the party of Man's devotion to God & the DEM the party of Man's devotion to himself. That applies only to those issues. Today the GOP controls all but the USSC & with Roberts expected to be fast-tracked to chief justice status that's soon to fall under the wing as well. That's reality. You can hide from it if you like but that isn't going to prevent it from happening. Roberts is what I would call a hard core economic conservative & a social conservative. There's a little room for moderate thinking on the social side but none on his economic side. Affirmative action is sure to fall under his leadership. Does any one still doubt that the God-issue has played a role in GWB's re-election? Does any one still doubt it's impact in the House & the Senate? We are at a crossroads in this nation. The religious are in power & they are expanding that powerbase. Yet it does not seem they are intent on expanding freedom & liberty in that endeavor. It seems they are intent are incorporating their dogmatic beliefs into legislation. The ACLU is powerless to fight it because they have cleverly aligned these beliefs with 9/11 fears & anxieties. What's more is that they seem to be gathering support from DEMs like Sen Lincoln who are only too happy to put forth greater sin taxes. Now the DEMs can continue to alienate the religious voter in America or they can start winning them back. Obviously my gripe in all this is that freedom & liberty is going to be compromised if the GOP expands it's powerbase. I don't believe in sin taxes any more than I believe in the government's right to censor an evangelically inspired majority. If the DEMs believe in liberty & freedom then they should play this smart. Appeal to the humanitarian beliefs of the religious, show repsect & admiration for the loyalty they have shown to their faith(s), agree that it's assenine to silence nearly all in order to uphold the "faith" of 1 or a few as the law of the school or the land, & emphasize the "do not judge lest thee be judge" dogma of the bible. The DEMs failure to do so of late is leading us towards a theocracy. Something I don't want any more than an atheist does. A theocracy is not about people in government expressing their religious convictions. Rhetoric is simply that. It's about those religious convictions getting incorporated into law. The ACLU has not a leg to stand on to fight it because these convictions are not associated with religion as much as they are associated with 9/11. IMO, for worse 9/11 has become the "boogeyman". Write a bill mentioning 9/11 fears & it's sure to pass.

Are you insane? Do you have any idea where these two guys have ranked NPERA wise over the past 4 yrs? Buerhle is near the top 10 & Burnett? He's not even in the top 30! Buerhle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Burnett. What Buerhle lacks in speed he more than makes up for with control & change of speed greatness. He's a LH version of Maddux at his prime. Burnett? He's a .500 pitcher who reminds me more of Alex Fernandez than BlackJack McDowell. I personally would not do this deal unless we are spinning it to Philly to get a stud like Wagner. It doesn't take that much intelligence in the game to know that the AL will fear Wagner a helluva a lot more than the erratic Burnett.

I have went ... I expect you will proof-read & edit what you wrote the same as I have. On a message board mistakes are bound to happen. We don't get paid for these posts so you shouldn't expect people to have time to proof re-read them. I attended a public school .............. would be more appropriate

I'm sorry but I have to respond to that propaganda bulls*** he quoted on the birth of the Republican party. Do you honestly believe the Republican party was built on the backs of the abolitionists? I suppose you think the civil war was fought over slavery. I guess you're the product of public education Like a mindless drone you accept the crap they feed you as gospel truth. Thank God the spiritual revival around the world will marginalize wack jobs like yourself. When atheism is the norm? Man are you stupid! Do yourself a favor & take a walk to the library & check out some books on the subject of economics in the civil war. Like all wars the people who controlled the power fought it over economics. Not slavery. That was simply a cause to gain support amongst the masses. That strategy has existed throughout the history of mankind. The civil war was powered by the northern industrialists wanting to expand into the south at the expense of the plantation owners. Go learn about it. They didn't give a rat's arse about slavery except for what it meant economically to the south.

Has to be one of the absolute dumbest & ignorant thinks a SOXTALK poster has ever written. You should stop there. Your ignorance challenges a rock. Seriously. For those who have more intelligence than that consider today's news: Democratic Sen. Blanche Lincoln is expected to introduce the Internet Safety and Child Protection Act of 2005 this week. This ACT will add a sin tax on all adult site transactions. So much for keeping the WWW tax-free. A Democrat never met a tax s/he didn't like.

Actually that report makes it more interesting. There's no mention of the money that NYY gave to the White Sox with Contreras going to Florida. So they would inherit the original terms of the contract. My understanding was that he had $17M left for 05-06 & the NYY's threw in $3M. Dropping his cost to about $7M/yr. But the contract is backloaded which means if Contreras is traded his services to the White Sox will cost no more than $3.5M for 2005. That would make the E-Lo for Contreras deal one of the best in KW's resume.

If Contreras is included then I have to agree with others that there is something else in the works. Contreras+Marte+BMac amounts to WSox freeing up $6M. That's about what they would take on in Wagner & Vizquel.

This Burnett thing is too hot. It's being covered on ESPN, all the local stations, JR quoted as saying rent-a-player on Burnett is ok, all of it seems to point strongly to it's going to happen. I can only hope that AJ & Cooper can bring out the best in AJB like they have in Contreras.

Dude, I agree with you. Vizquel was a perfect fit in the off-season. But he did spurn the White Sox then & he would not come cheap now. The rest of the stats I gave on Uribe were to show that despite his poor avg he still is on pace to exceed his 2004 RBI totals. Yes is R's are down but what do you expect from a guy moved from #2 to #9? I would not trade Uribe's 2004 Aug & Sep for Vizquel's & that's something you have to think of when sitting him down. Defensively I think Vizquel will not disrupt the chemistry of the middle IF. But he won't have the gun to get the outs Uribe does either.

Dude I was way ahead of you. I said to myself if I come back & say .. you're insane .. you could then go back & use real stats in favor of Vizquel over Uribe. So I just decided to respond to cast doubt in any NL stat you use. To expand on this compare the Sag's NPERA lists for 05-04 in AL & 05-04 in NL. There is great improvement in the AL & a significant decline in the NL. I blame Ozzie for Uribe underperforming. He put up the great numbers warranting the big contract hitting #2 in the lineup. Yet for whatever reason Ozzie choose to hit him 9th where he never accomplished much. I believe strongly that order in lineup can greatly impact a guy's numbers. Once a guy overachieves in a spot it's best to leave him there.

Nuke if you are right and unions are being marginalized that badly then our last hope is dying out. If you want to refer to them as a necc evil that's your choice. But we would not have the benefits we've had in this country without their blood, sweat & tears. Already we see the shift of benefits occuring en-masse. Private pensions are coming to an end. Being replaced by 401K's with little to no company contributions. Will these so called medical savings accounts evolve the same way? Yet the media is driven by the social divide between the two parties & that's what the average American hears the most. Who is to blame for that? Republicans? America is hearing the message they want them to hear. Can you say the same about Democrats?

Well I think the solution to the global trade practice problem is to start the reforms at home. There are many reforms that can be done domestically that have nothing to do with tariffs or other protectionist measures. If such reforms were to catch on in other economies the world would be better for it.

I disagree. School vouchers are winning wide spread support across the nation. Every poll & media survey suggests Americans are in favor of the idea. The fact that Daley (a Dem mayor) is one of the more outspoken supporters of extending it to parochial schools means it's already an issue local democrats are linking into. The teachers unions are facing much greater pressure from private education companies than vouchers. Vouchers would likely keep the kids in school rather than continue the growth of home schooling. Did you know you can educate your kids K-12 now with Stanford University? It's true. As for school prayer inititiative I agree bucking up against the ACLU is not without peril for Democrats but this doesn't have to come right away. It would be better for Dems to support the vouchers for several years so that some test results can be compared. That would give them a solid argument on whether spi helps or hinders the process. Assuming it helps that would weaken the strength of the ACLU on the issue. Today it was just announced that the Teamsters & services workers unions are breaking away from the AFL-CIO. That's a clear sign they are fed up with status-quo. This might be a wakeup call to the Dems they better start listening.

If the White Sox only have to take on 3 yrs of deferred money it will cost the White Sox between $1.5-2M/yr from 2009 to 2025. If the White Sox have to take on all 8 yrs (01-08) it will cost the White Sox between $3.5-4M/yr from 2009 to 2025. Griffey Jr turns 36 this Nov. In a worse case scenario where the White Sox have to take on all the money there is the possibility Griffey Jr could enjoy his stay so much so that he renegotiates his last year for an extension. In that scenario your still securing his sevices through some of the years he's earning deferred money.