JUGGERNAUT

Like Radke his 2nd 1/2 is always superior to his 1st. Career Pre-AS: 3.76E, .247BAA 23W-16L vs Pos-AS: 3.16E, .216BAA, 25W-12L 2004 Pre-AS: 4.62E, .282BAA, 4W-7L vs Pos-AS: 4.32E, .242BAA, 7W-4L 2005 Pre-AS: 4.66E, .234BAA, 3W-8L, .686 OOP, 69K's Past 3 yrs 491K's, .233BAA, .303OA, .666 OOP His era is not indicative of how well he is pitching. 2005 NPERA 3.52 (16th ranked) 2004 NPERA 3.82 (20th ranked) 2003 NPERA 2.66 (3rd ranked) 2002 NPERA 2.72 (5th ranked) No he's not a CY pitcher any more but he's still a solid #2/#3. He's still capable of a dominant start when you need one.

I read an article that after the NYY series in MIN their attendance was up 28%. Not sure where it is now. The Cell looked fuller last night then 28K+. It coulld be psychological on my part. I've guessed wrong on the attendance the past two nights I've been there. It just feels fuller. The Fundmentals deck is cool. They need to build one for us adults

I've been there once & if I can I will definitely be there on the day Frank is.

What about the 1918 Cubs? Where's the disdain for them? I can't wait until that book comes out. I hope they make it into a movie. Not only did this team fix that series but it threatened to strike in the middle of it for a greater pc of the pie from the bigger parks. Chick the prick, & his other stoolies were obviously in on the fix. But many of the better ball players were not. I will believe that until the day I die. There is nothing in their numbers or play to suggest that some of those guys were in on the fix (Shoeless Joe, Buck Weaver being the most notable). Eddie's life & the life of his family was threatened? What is he supposed to do? They went to Comiskey & he didn't want to hear it. Landis' ruling was unfair. This isn't grade school were you penalize all for a few. This is a sports-entertainment business. People's lives & livelihoods are at stake. To throw out those who tried to speak up but fell on deaf ears is a gross injustice to those players & the fans. He was a sanctimonious prick who put his own misguided sense of justice over the game itself.

Reading this thread you can't help but get a picture of the Astros being left for dead in the dessert with a swarm of vultures hovering over them. I won't believe they are planning a firesale until I see it. They are avg'g just under 33K/gm at home. I think the vulture fest is premature. Oakland on the other hand is avg'g < 24K/gm at home. The vulture fest is imminent.

It's pointless to keep debating this. Those who don't like Pods are going to ignore the simple fact that Pods puts far greater pressure on the defense than Lee does. I would agree D Pods is at best as good as Lee. It's true Lee has a stronger arm but Pods has greater range L & R. That allows Rowand to cheat over to RF. With Lee that's not possible. There are stats you don't want to look at for Pods value: 1- SB's from 2nd to 3rd. Lee can't do this. Few players can. 2- SH, SF - Pods is very good at both 3- Bunts. Pods is w/out question the best bunter on the team. This has much greater value when a pitcher is shutting your team down. Lee can't bunt to save his life. 4- vLHP: 9R .340A .421O 5RBI 6W 6SB, vRHP: 32R, .275A, .346O, 10RBI, 21W, 30SB. Lee is hitt .277 vs LH. Pods gives us an edge vs an ALC that features the best LHP in MLB. 5-NON: .293A .386O - Exactly what you hope for in a lead-off hitter. ************************************************** SB (2nd to 3rd): 13, SB (2nd to 3rd, 2 outs): 5 He has 61H & 36SB, 13 of which got him to 3B. That's equivalent to having 23DB, & 13TP on the season in NON sits. Lee has 20DB, & 0TP.

I am against this. If you have no role for him to start then send him back to Charlotte to continue his experience as a starter. We don't need him in the pen. As for Zito there's a thread now devoted to the subject & I will make my sale's pitch there

There is so much talk about range factor but the main stat for a defender is zone rating. Everyone knows Crede is slower to react than Randa when moving L-R. But he is far superior at fielding anything hit in front of him. That's why he has twice as many DP's as Randa this year & that's why his ZR (zone rating) is higher. .825 to .804. It's only a 2% difference because of their strengths & weaknesses. But Crede as 14 DP's (prior to last night's game) & Randa only has 8. Why should I dump Crede for Randa when he has a hot stick, his defense has helped us win numerous 1 run games, he's doing it at the tail end of the order, & his 2nd 1/2 numbers have consistently been better than Randa's in the AL? Let's not forget that Ozuna continues to perform every chance he gets to play.

Most of this re-hash of other threads, but I have to admit I think STL might get less respect from the media than the White Sox. If that's even possible. Seriously, if the White Sox had gone to the World Series last year & lost to anybody the media would be swarming the Cell for interviews & what not given that the team has the best record in MLB. But just look at the lack of attention STL gets. The dominate the NL last year get beat by Boston in the WS but just trail the White Sox by a few games for the best record in MLB. How many times are they even mentioned on Baseball Tonight? It's clear as day that ESPN has their favorites: AL: Yankees, RedSox NL: Dodgers, Cubs - They enjoy talking about these teams. The rest of the coverage is because they have to. Note: When the Yankees or Dodgers look weak their adopted teams are Baltimore & Washignton DC. Thus is life when ESPN owns MLB (figuratively speaking)

I have to admit if Zito is available I'm interested. The 2002 AL Cy Young winner has been asked to front that rotation & hasn't done as well as expected but for 3 straight years he's pitched his best ball in the 2nd half. Good: .690 OOP, .234BAA, Bad: 4.66ERA, 40W I believe he would do much bettter as a #3 for the White Sox. This should help the whole rotation as well with a finesse-LHP being slotted between power-RHP in Garcia & Contreras. As for the post, he's got success there as well. Not El Duque success but we can't all play for the NYY$ & got those kind of opps.

If Zito is really available I'd be interested. It's always better against contending teams to throw two dominant lefties against them. His best #'s are .690 OOP, 234BAA His worst numbers are 4.66ERA, 40W. In 2005 he's been #1 in the rotation. When he won his Cy Young in 2002 he was in the middle of the rotation. That's where I would put him on the White Sox. For 3 straight years his best stuff has surfaced in the 2nd 1/2. Buehrle L - finesse Garcia R - power Zito L - finesse Contreras R - power Garland R - finesse It's an ideal L-R mix with finesse & power. Now I know that disrupts the whole El Duque in the post plan but Zito has some post season success as well.

I disagree that Randa is as good a player defensively as Crede. You'll have to prove it. As for Randa's bat never forget to look at it where in the lineup he is hitting. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...98&type=batting He's got next to nothing experience hitting #7-9. #6 755OPS, #5 783OPS, #3 683OPS, #2 775OPS None of those numbers are good enough to replace the guys we have hitting in those spots. So hitting Randa in 7-9 is rolling the dice & hoping for the best. If you were to slot Crede in between say Thomas & Konerko, Konerko & Dye, Dye & Rowand do you think he'd produce better numbers? I do. Right now he's hitting behind AJ/Widger & Uribe. AJ is 5/32, Crede 12/36, Uribe is 5/29. Do you think Crede's struggles might have something to do with the fact that he is not getting very good pitches with Uribe hitting behind him? I think we're better off waiting & seeing what happens with the tail of our order while we enjoy an 8 gm lead over the Twins.

The problem with the grand scheme of getting Guardado from Sea is that they are playing .500 at home, .500 in their last 10, 7.5 gb in the WC, & 8.5 gb in the div. Pitching wise their 17th in MLB & hitting wise their a woeful 28th. If they think their bats are coming around they could be buyers instead of sellers. It's probably to early for them to consider trading yet.

I am still fuming since the time I learned it was the Cub in 1920 that wrecked the fortunes of my favorite team. One can only imagine what the history of our beloved White Sox would be had the dirty rotten Cub players not fixed that game in Aug of 1920. Do the White Sox go on to win the 1920 WS? Why the hell not? They were in the thick of the race at the time. Does shoeless Joe Jackson go on to be one of the greatest players of all time. Why the hell not? One might argue the scandal would have re-emerged any way but that would be ignoring the timing of this whole thing. If the Cub players don't fix that game in late Aug & the WS go on to win the 1920 WS they become the media darlings. It's even conceivable to imagine that we might be the most storied franchise in MLB & not the Yankees if that Cub game isn't fixed.

That may be true but Pods presence at the plate & on the bases is like that of Frank Thomas' in that it causes a team to alter their play. It puts added pressure on the pitcher, & causes the defense to move in to be able to defend the bunt. That means when Pods does get a solid hit the defense is less prepared to defend it. If there were a stat that measured the frequency of mistakes by the defense when Pods is AB or OB he would be amongst the league leaders. Lee would not. I have never argued against the need for the White Sox to get Pods. They were woeful in the SB dept last year. They didn't pressure any one defensively & Thomas went out they had few players to alter a team's play. Team's became comfortable when playing the 1-dim power driven White Sox. If some of you trully want to cling to the belief that Pods+Vizc & a nothing PTBNL was the best KW could get from Milw for Lee then you are ignoring the facts. Many analysts weighed in on this trade & all of them weighed it heavily in favor of the Brewers. All that you say about the salary dump is true. It's not $8.5M but rather the $16M over 2 yrs. But that doesn't ignore the fact that the Brewers WERE desperate to trade for a STRONG bat this off-season & most analysts felt they were willing to overpay to get it. Their need for a bat like Lee was even more obvious than the Sox need for Pods. When it comes to this trade I can't ignore what so many others have written: We should have gotten more for Lee & there's no good reason why we didn't. As you said it's behind us now. His other moves have far exceeded the failure to get better value in this one. We talk a lot about who he picked up & never enough about who he retained. The commitment to these guys has been a big part of the story. Everett, Iguchi, AJ, Widger, Ozuna, Harris, Garland, Hermy, Cotts, & Politte - They are all overacheivers this year & they are all heroes on this team. They were not expected to perform at the level they have. I can accept Williams failure to get Wise + Adams from Milw because I would not have had the foresight to keep the guys he did. With the re-emergence of Shingo of late a poor performing Vizc can be relegated to mop up duty. If he can perform well in mop up duty then maybe we can include him in a pkg to entice Sea for Guardado.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/cubsatte.shtml http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/wsoxatte.shtml Let me tell the real story. In 1920 following the loss in the 1919 WS they drew 200K more fans than the league average. They were one of the highest draws in the league. Up until that time they had been outdrawing the Cub for the most part every year. Then in Aug of 1920, a story broke that Cub players had fixed a game in that month. A Chicago reporter wrote a column strongly suggesting that the 1919 WS be included in the grand jury investigation of this Aug Cub game. The BlackSox scandal at reached it's peak & a promising season with WS hopes went down the toilet. The Sox suffered at the gate until 1925. They drew below the league avg. Then attendance rebounded to 1920 levels. The Cub was below the league avg in those years. In 1926 Wrigley Field arrived as an icon in MLB. The Cub would consistently draw above the league avg until 1951. The White Sox consistently drew below the league avg in that time. Sometimes woefully so. From 1951 until 1968 the Cub consistenly drew below the league avg. The appeal of the new park could not compensate for bad teams. From 1951 until 1965 the White Sox were one of the best draws in the game. From 1968 until 1981 Cub & White Sox attendance was about even. Both struggled to meet or exceed the league avg. A slight edge probably goes to the Cub. In 1981 the Cub were one of the worst draws in MLB. They couldn't draw 600K when the league avg was over a million. The Sox also failed to meet the league avg but were less than 100K short. From 1981 thru 1983 the Sox outdrew the Cub .. big time. The Sox drew over 2 million for the first time in franchise history. By 1984 the franchises had taken different directions. Reinsdorf opted for PPV & the Cub opted for Harry Carray & national cable with WGN. WGN was the first major superstation in America. More American's saw the Cub play on TV than the NYY$. The league average had reached over the 2 million mark by 1987. The Cub hovered around the average while the White Sox fell on hard times. The Cub reached the NLCS in 1989 & 2.5M fans. Well above the league avg. The White Sox in that same year drew just over a million. One of the worst draws in MLB. In 1990 the final season at Old Comiskey drew just over 2 million fans while the Cub avg'd 30K/gm at Wrigley. In 1991 New Comiskey opened & the White Sox outdrew the Cub by 600K+& outdrew the league avg by 700K+. 36K/gm avg. By this time the White Sox were back on broadcast TV. But the upper deck was too steep & the appeal quickly wore off. Attendance began to drop even during years with a competitive team. By 1993 the avg had dropped to about 32K/gm while the Cub had increased to 32.5K/gm. Wrigley had already become a national landmark for MLB fans world-over thanks to deals made by WGN to broadcast games overseas in the late 80's. Yep. Nobody talks about it much. But when Turner bought the Braves & created TBS as America's 2nd major superstation WGN was already working deals to show the Cubs in all major TV markets in the world. In 1994 during a strike shortened season the Cub overtook the White Sox in attendance & never looked back. In that year the Cub avg'd 32.6K/gm (close to the league avg) & the White Sox avg'd 30K/gm (below the league avg). Hard to believe they would strike in a year when the avg attendance was 30K/gm around the league. As the strike wore on. JR was made the scape goat by the media. He was the man to blame by most for the strike. He was perceived as wrecking his own team's chance at a World Series for financial gain. From that point on the Cub went on to be one of the best draws in MLB & the White Sox one of the worst. In less than a 15 yr period the Cub had morphed from being one of the worst draws in MLB & to a Chicago icon, a national icon, & a world icon. WGN had changed the face of professional sports in America forever. Wrigley became a shrine unto the world. In 1999 the Cub drew 500K more than the league avg while the White Sox drew 900K below the league avg. Ouch! Credit the White Sox for closing the gap quickly. In 2000 the Cub drew 300K over league avg, & the White Sox rebounded to draw 300K below league avg. The winning season was worth 600K more fans in the seat. Dissapointing seasons in 2001-2002 pushed the White Sox 600K below league avg. The Cub were nearly 400K above it. In the infamous Bartman year of 2003 the Cub drew 700K over the league avg while the White Sox rebounded to less than 300K below league avg. In 2004 the Cub past the 3M mark for the first time in franchise history maintaining their 700K mark above the league avg. The White were below 2M or 400K below avg. In 2005 the best team in MLB (Chicago White Sox) are on pace to exceed 2M. Something they have not done since the strike. The 14th ranked Cub are on pace to exceed 3.2M. Something they've never done. Stupid Cub fans.

I remember reading an article where Crede was interviewed & the topic did come up & he didn't seem adamant against it. The reporter asked him something along the lines of "I'm sure you're aware of the history between the White Sox & your agent Scott Boras. Have you given any thought to switching agents?" Crede's response did not say he was happy with Scott or that he would rule it out. His answer was more along the lines of his crossing that path when he comes to it. I'm not looking into a crystal ball but instead just reading the quotes in the paper. Both KW & Oz have given Joe a vote of confidence & Oz has lowered his expectations down to what Crede has produced the past 2 yrs. You don't do that if your trying to trade the kid. You want to keep selling his potential to boost his value. Ozzie just dropped an egg on that potential & said I'm happy with how he plays for me. Team's don't publicly announce they are lowering their expecations for a kid they intend to trade. That's stupid.

No. The answer is no. We do not need the 5th starter for the post season. It would be pointless to pay a high price for such a starter to try & secure home field advantage in the AL. Buerhle, Garcia, Garland, & Contreras are the play off rotation right now. Any starter you trade for better be pitching as good or better as these 4. We need a replacement for Luis in the pen more than we need another starter.

That's not uncommon. Since 2000 I always show up at the game early & it always seems like a 1/2 full house. But every where you look people are walking around. Then by the 3rd inning it looks much fuller. I really think it's all about the food at the Cell. ESPN featured only a smidgen of what's there. I still believe it's 2nd to none to other MLB parks when it comes to the food. It was a great night to be sitting in the bleachers & watching the fireworks both at the plate & behind the scoreboard. I just wish Boyer would have more promotions linked to the food. Every one I go to the games with raves about the food. It's something Wrigley can't come close to competing in. The Sox should do a much better job selling the food at the park. How about a free brat with paid admission?

I've said it before & I will say it again. We did not get enough for what Carlos Lee was worth at the time. Milw was not the only team calling Kenny. There will several suitors for Lee. I don't think you realize how much you overpaid. You traded a guy coming off a career year who was clearly the MVP of a team for the NL's SB leader who was coming off a bad year at the plate & a average at best relief pitcher. The PTBNL was a joke. The Brewers had to be laughing their arses off as soon as KW consented to the deal. That had speed on the team to compensate for the loss of Pods. To them it was no big deal. Getting Lee was huge. The fact he is leading the NL in RBI is something they themselves couldn't have dreamed up. If it had to be Lee (I'm still not convinced of that) then we had better be getting 2 solid RP with Pods. In all trade talk starting from last July it was believed that a team had to be willing to give up a #2/#3 starter for Lee. If you're going to shift that focus to a SB leader then you better damn well be getting top of the line help in relief. 29 yr old RH Mike Wise 04 2.93 NPERA, .659 OOP 26 yr old RH Mike Adams 04 2.95 NPERA .666 OOP Luis Vizc 04 3.34 NPERA .724 OOP Pods+Wise+Adams for Lee is reasonable. The Bullpen could have been: Hermy, Wise, Politte, Cotts, Marte, Shingo You have the option of bringing Adams up when Shingo struggled. How many losses do we at the hands of poor pitching by Luis? At least 6. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6291 All 1 run games & all games where Luis gave up 1 or more R. Mike Wise leads the NL in NPERA for relievers this year. Cost? $350K I don't want to hear that KW couldn't get these guys. C Lee 04 RPG 6.70, 103R, 99RBI, 310TB S Pods 04 RPG 4.34 85R, 39RBI, 233TB When it comes to trades the NUMBERS mean a whole LOT more than potential.

He is not a band-wagon jumper. Don't you see his sarcasm in this piece? It's yet another hatchet job to difuse the excitement White Sox fans are feeling. He's an unhappy Cub fan who is jealous of what you the White Sox fan are feeling right now. So in the midst of your celebration of homer happy Monday night he throwing cold water on your head by mentioning every negative thing that's occured he could think of. That's not a band-wagoner. That's a Grinch. He would like nothing more than to steal this season from you.

Attendance: 34,345. I thought it was more than that. It looked full. I don't know if all parks are like the Cell but there always are about 2K-3K fans moving about at the games. That movement makes the park look even fuller.

Bull Durham quote: We gotta play 'em one day at a time. I'm just happy to be here and hope I can help the ballclub. I just wanta give it my best shot and, Good Lord willing, things'll work out. Let's keep it real & not get ahead of ourselves.

The Cubs edged past Milw tonight & Boston edged past Cle. Cle is 9.5 gb, Min is 8 gb. In the win col Cle is 10 back & Min is 9 back. Who wants to bet the Sox will have a double-digit lead over the entire ALC by the break? Thomas makes Koney a better HR hitter because Koney gets better pitches to swing at. As long as Thomas remains healthy the Sox can only beat themselves. I want Guardado on the team for insurance on a night like to night. It was good the offense came through and scored 11, but against a contender in Aug Vizcaino will lose this game for us. We need to shore up the bullpen so we can hold 2-3 run leads much better.

Umm .. no Joe Randa is no Joe Crede defensively. Let's cut right thru the crap in this thread. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...lumn=zoneRating 2005 ZR Crede .826 (#3 in MLB) vs Randa .804 (#7) DP Crede 14 vs Randa 8 A Crede 117 vs Randa 106 How many times this year had Crede failed to field & deliver an accurate throw for a DP? How often have those players ended a threat in an inning? The best thing that can happen to Joe is to call up BorASS & say sayonara. The Sox like Crede & are willing to sign him to a lucrative multi-year deal to avoid arbitration. It's only going to help him in the long run if he does that.