JUGGERNAUT

El Duque got roughed up for 4R in the 1st but he's been battling strong these last 3 innings. Tonight's an important game because 1/2 our bench is playing: Harris 2B, Gload 1B, Perez LF - Koney's DH'g

IMO, I think Yahoo!'s is updating faster. If you like the pitch zone then nothing beats MLB's but if you like to keep track of the other games while viewing the Sox Yahoo's better.

They pushed him a lot in terms of conditioning & for Eddie's season to end like this is a crying shame. SOX 4, CLE 4 in 4th Yahoo! GameChannel as a sleek new design. Check it out at Yahoo Sports.

Last night was a great win because our 7-8-9 hitters came through. I like your signature but I would add Crede on there as well. You might be asking why. Because I'm still not convinced Lee had to be traded to get Pods. Who do they have playing 3B? Russell Branyan. He's played as much in LF as he has in 3B & he's a better LF than 3B. They wanted a RH HR hitter that good fill a hole in the field they have. Lee has avg'd less than 10HR more than Crede in the past 2 seasons. Crede costs less than Pods. I've heard the salary dump argument & I don't buy that either. The 3 new guys Dye, Pods, & Viz will consume all off Lee's 16.5M/2yr. Possibly more depending on arbitration. Did we really need Viz? Was he worth trading Lee? Trading Crede of course means either signing a FA 3B, playing Fields, Ozuna, or bidding on Nakamara. The Sox were rumored to have interest in Naka but that seemed short-lived. In my opinion they just felt Crede's potential far exceeded that of any other player they could get to play 3B. They weren't ready to give up on him. Having made that decision the choice was then whittled down to Lee or Koney & they just like Koney better. I think it's ironic because Lee epitomizes speed & power. He's 15SB/yr avg of the last 2 yrs is amongst the leaders on the team. Defensively he's had his share of web gems. Is improvement over the years has led to his defense helping the Sox much more than it hurts it. As the year plays out I think most Lee Sox fans will be watching his progress as well as Pods, Crede's, Koney's, Dye's, & Maggs. It's definitely got to be Kenny's most controversial trade to date. Of course all of that is overshadowed by Kenny's most important trade for the 2005 season: Carl Everett. He's playing at an MVP type level right now. Even better than Lee. Yes, Kenny traded 5 players to get him these past seasons but Carl's always produced for the Sox.

Don't give me the school teacher crap. I've met LOTs of teachers in my lifetime that didn't have a brain. Good at absorbing knowledge but stupid when it comes to applying it. ZR is the talent stat ignoramous. RF is the sure-hands stat. Just because you are ignorant to it's value doesn't mean it's meaningless. They wouldn't keep track of it or make use of it in more complex stats if it didn't have value. Oh and please spare me the sanctimonious s***. If someone throws a punch at me I'll beat them into submission in an act of self defense. It's the same thing with words. It's pretty obvious who threw the first punches in this thread.

Is that the best argument you can make? The fact that the C was not Mauer but someone else? Who gives a flying F? It doesn't change ANYTHING about the play! That's got to be one of the dumbest F'g arguments I've ever heard. No you can't send Iggy because Mauer's not the C. Get a F'g brain.

You need to get a clue. You over rate Joe all the time. It's sickening to the point you resemble Cub fans. He's not very good. Not with the bad or the glove. Maybe in your mind he is but he hasn't proven a thing in either dept on the field. Yeah that's why you don't like the numbers. They don't lie. They tell the truth. No room for delusional thinking there. Do yourself a favor. Look up Joe's ZR & compare it to other 3B. Choose either LT or 2005. He's among the worst. Not the best.

I'm more concerned with our woeful 185A for RISP. That had better change soon.

That's the kind of guy Mark is. He'll never blame any one else. But it doesn't change the fact that a player with a poor ZR (.684) attempted to make a play in a zone covered by a player with a great ZR (.905). Crede is not even getting to 70% of the balls for a 3B zone. Yet Uribe is over 90% for a SS zone. It's a no-brainer. Believe what you will. I saw the play. Mauer is no where in position to make that play, Iggy has base stealing speed & Hunter's throw would have needed to be perfect to throw him out. No where even close to being out by 10 ft. That's ridiculous.

I didn't see the play. I was hoping to see it on ESPNN but they didn't show it. What I would say from experience is that you are taught early on about zones. Where the 3B zone ends & where the SS zone begins. Typically the primary concern for 1B & 3B is the line. That's because there is no one to defend the line past them. The RF & LF have to move quickly from more centered positions to make a play. That means the range of these guys is limited to what it takes for them to make a play on the line. If you assume a 7ft span then you are looking at about 15ft from the bag. That's the range of maximum range for both positions. Everything else falls in the SS & 2B zones. These are typically the fastest reaction guys on the team. Again here's where the numbers help define the play. Crede has a lifetime ZR of .762 & a poor ZR of .684 for 2005. Uribe has a lifetime ZR of .848 & a great ZR of .905 for 2005. Let me explain what that means again. It means that Crede hasn't been able to get to about 25% of the balls defined for a 3B zone in his career. It means he's failed to make plays on about 32% of the balls defined in his zone this year. Uribe on the other hand is getting to all but 10% of the balls hit in a SS zone. That ranks amongst the league leaders. If I were the manager I would have pointed this out & the start of the season & told Crede not to attempt to make a play towards Uribe unless he's 100% confident he can get the out. Uribe is more capable of making the tough plays.

It's amazing how Magglio's presense has filled their minds with delusions. We have the best rotation in the ALC, & 2nd best bullpen yet we're not a factor in this race. Ummm .. ok

It's pointless to argue this. The guy gave up 7H & had no less than 5 RISP, 2 out sits. The WSox failed to execute. Plain & simple. They did the same against CLE as well. That's why they came into this series hitting less than 200 in that sit. I guess every hit that Santana gives up is a scratch in your mind. :lol If Iggy is sent on that OBVIOUS SF it's a different game.

This is the silliest thing I've read. If the WSox send Iggy Santana is tagged for 3R, yet you want to believe he should have had a shutout. I'll tell you what let's just award Santana the Cy Young now on the basis that we are going to ignore his rough starts on account of his being nervous. I guess we didn't see the same ball game or read the same pitch-by-pitch. The WSox proved to be futile in the RISP sits as they did prior to facing Santana & didn't make him pay. I'll wait & see what he does against the rest of the league before I pencil him in as the Cy Young winner. As far as I'm concerned is head & shoulders above Santana. If he's pitching a do or die game he's going the whole game if he has to. He's not leaving after 5. ================================ As for Buerhle you can easily make the argument that if Crede doesn't mess up that play & Mark gets out of that inning he cruises thru the 7th. It's an entirely different ball game then. Especially if Iggy is sent for that 3rd run. If you're asking me who was the better pitcher in 04, hands down it was Santana. But if you're asking me who's been better in 05 right now it's Mark & the numbers back him up. If you're asking me who's done more their team in the past 4 yrs again it's Mark.

Lastly, Halladay vs Santana: 2002 Halladay finished 4th w a 2.63NPERA & 19W over 239IP. 2003 Halladay finished 6th w a 2.89NPERA & 22W over 266IP. 2004 Santana finished 1st w a 2.09NPERA & 20W over 228IP. 2004 Halladay went on the DL. With the post-season action Santana's 2004 IP came close to Halladay's. With Silva out Santana will be called upon to pitch longer. It's a different ball game then. Just ask Halladay.

No one's disputing he's good. Or even very good. We're talking elite. Clemens, Schilling, Johnson, Pedro, Hudson, Beckett, Schmidt type eliteness. I throw Beckett in there because it did it when it really counted : post-season. He proved to be both great & durable with the CG SO. You can't reach that level until you've demonstrated greatness over years. With all do respect to Santana 2004 was his first year with 30+ starts. It's ridiculous in my opinion to call him an elite pitcher. One more thing I would like to point out. Santana's had one of the best pens behind him the past 3 yrs. If you don't think that makes a difference you're not paying attention. That's afforded the Twins the luxury of pulling him out of a game when he's running out of gas. Can the same be said of Mark or Schilling with the bloody ankle? That's why you see several strong starts by Santana that end after 5IP. Now that they have back end rotation of Lohse, Mays/Mully, & a AAA guy I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens. That back end of the rotation is likely to eat much more into that pen this 1/2 than at any time over the past 3 yrs. When the pen gets over-used & tired Santana won't have the luxury of leaving at the 5th if he himself gets tired. He'll have to go a couple of innings when his fast ball is dropping off. Let's see how he fares then. He avg'd a 95pc / start last yr. Buehrle avg'd a 105pc. Let's see how Santana fares with the extra work.

Only those who don't know s*** about baseball or those who might be mentally challenged to the degree they can't make a baseball argument so they try to bolster thier appearance with dumb arse remarks like the one above. Tonight I saw a pitcher who should have been down 3-0 because he struggled early again. I read about another guy that was cruising until a third basemen who is both clueless at the plate & in the field messed up a play Uribe would have made for the 3rd out. The extra out cost that guy 4R. If that play is made then maybe that guy doesn't start walking people in the 5th. Maybe that guy goes 7IN, 0R. Baseball's a funny game in that respect. I'm sure the Twins will have their share of such plays before the season's done. If your defense lets you down you're usually going to lose. That's practically a Cardinal Rule in the game.

You're pissing me off now. Schilling & Johnson have done it for years. Santana has done it for months. BIG DIFFERENCE. With a 4.50ERA in 2GS he looks more like Halladay than the elite.

For the Santana worshipers: He's at the Jake next & then takes on KC at the dome. He won't be facing us. We won't face him again until after the break. They've got a nice schedule that features plenty of Royals, Tigers, & Indians. Mixed with Yankees, Angels, Giants, Brewers, Blue Jays, Orioles, Devil Rays, Rangers, Dodgers, Padres, & DBacks. It should be a whole lot of fun for Santana, Radke, Lohse, Mays/Mullholland, & the AAA guy.

Incidentally MIN (333 RISP). Opp 280. Mark B 2GS 15IP 0.87 WHIP 3.00ERA vs Johan S 2GS 12IP 1.17 WHIP 4.50ERA I think I'll wait for the day Santana passes Mark this year before rewarding him another Cy Young Oh wait! I forgot. Santana's greatness eclipses his stats. He was nervous in SEA & he was nervous tonight. We should just ignore all his nervous innings. Damn! I wish they would have sent Iggy on the SF. That was a momentum builder. Considering we were hitting < 200 w RISP coming into tonight we had better odds of scoring on the SF than we did of someone hitting him in. The excitement of the play alone would have been worth it. I wonder how many Santana worshipers there would be in this thread then. It was a missed opportunity to go up 3-0 on the great Santana. I wonder if Ozzie will say anything about it.

Might I remind you he was facing a team that has the worst RISP avg in the league. It was hitting 125 w RISP, 2 Outs. It's now 077. It's now hitting 185 w RISP period. You can hardly call this team a fair mark to measure Santana's greatness. However I can say that for a team hitting 240 in RON sits to get 2-3R off him I would say he looks weaker than he did last Aug. Conversely opponents are hitting 261 vs WSox in RISP sits. Let's see how Santana does vs NYY (.239 RISP), BAL (289 RISP), TOR (350 RISP), CLE (222 RISP), BOS (234 RISP), DET (304 RISP), KCR (227 RISP), ANA (306 RISP). The WSox are 4-2 on the strength of quality starts, above avg pen work, timely hits & HRs. But you can't do that forever. At some point if you're not among the leaders in average w RISP the losses are going to come your way. You can see the teams that have that edge right now. Let's see how Santana does against them before we consider him Cy Young worthy again.

For all you Santana is a can't miss Cy Young winner this year let me remind you that Randy Johnson now pitches for the Yankees. The team that usually leads the league in HR's & R. As long as he's healthy enough to pitch 30+ starts he's probably in line for the fewest losses & the most wins amongst all starters. I'm lying my $ down on The Big Unit. Go ahead & put yours down on Santana. We'll see who wins. I'm so sick of this Santana never s***s attitude amongst some of you. The guy pitches 7IP, w 11K, giving up 2ER (should have been 3 for sure), faciing 5 RISP, 2 out situations & you think he pitched great. He had nothing more than a quality start. Less stellar than what Mark did last Monday.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6441...4&type=Pitching http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6525...4&type=Pitching Apply their RON #'s to tonight's game. That's what playing the avg's mean. Of course if you prefer to think that Santana is now a baseball God & his avg's mean nothing as we should expect perfection even in RON situations from here on out well you can live in that world but don't expect me to. Santana should have been tagged w no less than 3R (no avg's being played there) & possibly a 4th (if you apply his avg's). I happen to look at that as a good sign for the next time we face him. If we can drive up the counts better (less first pitch swings) & maybe drag some bunts we might have better success against him. For those of us who did watch the games we saw the Twins are very weak at defensing drag bunts. They are too slow on the corners & on the mound to get the outs in those plays. Maybe other teams will figure this out & maybe not. I'm sure Ozzie has seen the same thing. Why the WSox didn't do more of this tonight when Ozuna beat out a simple play I don't know. They certainly have the personnel to get it done this year.

PLAY BY PLAY: Top 1st: Chi White Sox - P. Ozuna reached on bunt single to first - T. Iguchi doubled to left, P. Ozuna to third - C. Everett hit sacrifice fly to right, P. Ozuna scored, T. Iguchi to third - P. Konerko flied out to center - J. Dye popped out to shallow left center 1 runs, 2 hits, 0 errors Chi White Sox 1, Minnesota 0 There's just no excuse for not sending Iggy on the FO to CF. He's avg'd 30 SB/yr in Japan over the last 4 yrs. It was hit deep enough to where Mauer wasn't even covering the plate on the throw. Score should be 2-0 WSox Top 3rd: Chi White Sox 3-0 WSox - J. Uribe singled to second & stole 2nd - P. Ozuna sacrificed to pitcher, J. Uribe to third - T. Iguchi hit sacrifice fly to center, J. Uribe scored - C. Everett singled to third but Konerko K'd Bottom 3rd: Minnesota - L. Rivas singled to right - S. Stewart flied out to center, L. Rivas to second - J. Castro singled to right, L. Rivas to third - J. Mauer struck out swinging - M. LeCroy singled to left, L. Rivas scored, J. Castro to second - T. Hunter homered to deep left, M. LeCroy and J. Castro scored - L. Ford flied out to deep right 4 runs, 4 hits, 0 errors Chi White Sox 2, Minnesota 4 A RON 1,3 w 2 outs. Castro & Rivas have good speed but LeCroy doesn't. Uribe likely makes that play (if Crede doesn't interefere). 3-0 WSox Top 5th: Chi White Sox RON 1,3 2 outs for Koney. bummer. - C. Everett singled to center, T. Iguchi to third - P. Konerko struck out swinging Bottom 5th: Minnesota - J. Castro singled to left - J. Mauer walked, J. Castro to second - M. LeCroy walked, J. Castro to third, J. Mauer to second - T. Hunter grounded into fielder's choice, J. Castro scored, J. Mauer to third, M. LeCroy out at second - L. Ford grounded into double play shortstop to second to first, T. Hunter out at second Odds are Mark gives up a run here. 3-1 WSox Top 7th: Chi White Sox RON 2, no outs .. missed op - J. Crede doubled to right center - J. Uribe struck out swinging - P. Ozuna struck out looking - T. Iguchi grounded out to third Playing the avg's we get that run. 4-1 WSox. Bottom 7th: Minnesota - S. Stewart singled to second - J. Castro sacrificed to pitcher, S. Stewart to second - J. Mauer grounded out to first, S. Stewart to third - M. LeCroy struck out looking Playing the avg's they get that run. 4-2 WSox Bottom 8th: Minnesota - C. Politte relieved M. Buehrle - T. Hunter safe at first on pitcher C. Politte's fielding error - T. Hunter stole second - L. Ford struck out looking - T. Hunter stole third - M. Cuddyer struck out looking - C. Miller flied out to right RON 3 w 1 out. Playing the avg's they score. 4-3 WSox. Top 9th: Chi White Sox - J. Nathan relieved J. Rincon - A.J. Pierzynski singled to right - S. Podsednik hit for J. Crede - S. Podsednik flied out to center - W. Harris hit for J. Uribe - A.J. Pierzynski to second on passed ball - W. Harris struck out looking - P. Ozuna grounded out to first RON 2, 1 out but slow feet. Avg's would say we don't score. 4-3 WSox. If Uribe makes that play & tonight falls along the avg's we're looking at 4-3 WSox w the Twins coming to bat in the 9th w Rivas Stewart Casto Mauer or something close to that. It could go either way. There isn't much history there but they do have some hits against Shingo. I think Momentum would definitely be in the favor having scored the last 2 runs. I think extra innings favors the Twins because Nathan has the #'s over 30 pitches. I'm just being honest. He threw 12 pitches in the top of the 9th. I don't know if it helps or not but in all likelihood based on how we pitched tonight & they pitched tonight we still lose this game. Maybe a 5-4 loss in extra innings is easier to take than a 5-2 loss but it's still a loss. The one consolation prize is that we didn't use up our pen in that effort so we should be fresh & ready to battle CLE on Mon. Pitches-strikes WSox: M Buehrle 100-66; C Politte 10-9; Twins: J Santana 108-82; J Rincon 19-11; J Nathan 12-9. Unlike some of you I don't think he resembled a Cy Young pitcher tonight. His hits & MOB #'s were not Cy Young-esqe. We should have tagged him for 3R & a possibly a 4th. But if you look at the play by play they are more likely the winners of tonight's game. We won the series. Time to move on. Next up CLE.

Ok, then you may be right about the 3-2 argument. It changes the next innings sequence for Mark. Hunter, Ford, Cuddyer, Miller, Rivas, Stewart, Castro, Mauer, LeCroy, Hunter The first 5 are probably outs but then comes Stewart. He had a walk & hit so I think he gets on. Castro got a hit leading off the 5th so I see no reason why he wouldn't have done it with 2 outs & a RON 1. So we're looking at RON 1,3 .. 2 outs for Mauer. Basically you've got Mauer, LeCroy, & Hunter needing to either draw a walk or get a hit. Mark gave up 2 walks in that inning to Mauer & LeCroy so I think it's more likely MIN does push a run across. 3-2 Twins.

Bottom 3rd: Minnesota - L. Rivas singled to right - S. Stewart flied out to center, L. Rivas to second - J. Castro singled to right, L. Rivas to third - J. Mauer struck out swinging - M. LeCroy singled to left, L. Rivas scored, J. Castro to second - T. Hunter homered to deep left, M. LeCroy and J. Castro scored - L. Ford flied out to deep right I'll assume you are talking the single to LF. That was a Crede muff? Should he have been able to field it & thrown one of the runners out?