JUGGERNAUT

Dumb decsion. All you have to do is replace the choc chips with healthier cookies : oatmeal & strawberry fig bars. What a weird thread. From Sesame Street to Zoom then to Metallica & Jethro Tull. You'll only find that at SOXTALK.COM

I would not be surprised if the CWS & LAD don't swing a trade soon. Nakamura for Crede. Naka is not happy w LAD decisions & the WSox were interested in him this off-season. Likewise the LAD have always been interested in Crede. If you need another example of why maybe we should believe in a player's stuff more than there numbers look no further than J Weaver. He just had a great 6-0 start vs SFG. If Weaver can do it so to can Contreras & maybe even Crede. Tap into that great talent & show it on the field.

I've got nothing but love for what Vizcaino did. I think he did a fine job in the 9th & 10th. He had aleady passed the 45 pitch mark by the time he reached the 11th. What's really sad about all this is that if Ozzie puts him in to face Crisp he's likely the biggest hero of the game. He should have done that. Shingo had passed the 15 pitch mark before facing Crisp. I'm assuming of course that Ozzie got Vizcaino up in the bp after Shingo gave up the first HR. That's what a good mgr would do. Out of respect to Ozzie he's learning on the job. As long as he shows improvement he still has the stuff to be a good manager.

Can we skew the vote totals at least? I'm assuming that since the WSox are first that means 1st place.

Game notes: The Metrodome is sold out for tonight's Twins opener. It's no big deal for El Duque but it's the biggest crowd by far for Lohse. Trash-talk: Buehrle last Sept stated the Twins wouldn't make it past the first round. This coming after Hunter stated the CSox were done. Asked about his prediction Wednesday, Buehrle said, "I was right." The Yankees beat the Twins in the first round last season. On Thursday Hunter said, "I ain't got nothing to say to him. I won't even speak to him." Lohse said, "We know we're not happy with what's gone on in the postseason. At least we were there." The Twins are 45-31 vs CSox in the last 4 yrs. But 04 saw a + change: May 23: Sox 17-7 took 3 out of 4 @ MIN. June 30: Sox 9-6 Garcia 9K/6IP. Sox in 1st place. July 26: Twins 6-2 Hunter runs over Burke. Twins sweep CSox. Sept. 14: Twins 10-2 9R in 6IN to break scoreless tie. Sept. 22: Sox 7-6 Koney's RBI single in 9th pulls the CSox closer in the season series (9-10). http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...tesox-headlines This might be the most important series in getting people to the ball park. All eyes on the CSox on Sun night. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...tesox-headlines Oz quotes: "Duque doesn't speak bad English when you talk about baseball. I told Pierzynski when you go out there for Contreras, tell him to throw strikes. When he gets back to the dugout, I'll take care of the rest."

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/co...ia/x08-ard1.htm Is Pierzynski emerging as the runaway favorite among new hitters Sox fans are most excited about? AJP Quote: "Hopefully, it'll be a good fit for me here, and hopefully I can stay for a couple years." Before Shingo's meltdown, Pierzynski had coaxed the Sox to a 1.73 ERA over 26 innings.

Ask me if I care what you think. You're attention to detail is clearly lacking in the fact you didn't even make reference to a post. So I'm guessing you really had nothing to say & just want to s*** in a thread. Good for you. I hope you're relieved. Shingo & Vizcaino are 15-20 pitch pitchers. That's it. Learn to live with reality.

The Big Unit = Ace of Spades. Schilling = Ace of Diamonds. Santana = Ace of Clubs. Buehrle = Ace of Hearts.

Oz quotes: "I'm sick to my stomach right now, but there's nothing you can do about it. All of a sudden, I learned another one: It's not over until it's over. Every day you learn something. Hopefully we move on and tomorrow is another day.'' "I abused that kid," Guillen said of Vizcaino, who has a 17.18 ERA as evidence. "That's all my fault to leave that kid in there that long." Chris Widger (warming up in BP) said he would have relied on a straight fastball & straight slow ball DYK: Both blown saves in Takatsu's Sox career have come against CLE. I think Ozzie will manage the pen better going forward. It sounds like the game was an eye-opener for him. As far as his use of Shingo Oz seems to have a good handle on him now. He stated that Shingo did not look good from the get go leaving to many balls up high in the K-zone. I think he realizes now that he can never expect to go very long with Shingo. If he struggles early he's got to use someone else to finish it. I would say the odds are pretty good he's not going to burn through the pen like that in the near future.

The meltdown had me focusing more on pitch counts. Ozzie needs to do the same. I ignored that split for the most part for the past couple of years but it really does help to define a player's strength & weaknesses. I was surprised to find Shingo's OPS vs to be as high as 840 when he throws more than 15 pitches. But no one can argue with his 439 OPS vs for his first 15 pitches. For every save opportunity Oz needs to view Shingo as a closer on a short leash. If he can't get it done in 15-20 pitches yank him.

I disagree. Most reasonably good relief pitchers can pitch well for their first 15-20 pitches. But what separates the Nathan's from the rest is their effectiveness beyond that. Nathan is nearly as effective in his 16-30 pitches. Vizcaino is bad, Cotts is bad, Shingo is less than good. Marte is the best we have for someone expected to throw 30 pitches in 1 night. Hermanson is 2nd best. Politte is 3rd. As for leaving Herm vs bringing in Shingo the numbers say bring in Shingo. Herm is still effective in his higher pitch counts but Shingo is dominant in his first 15. Even though he messed up the 7th, Ozzie still could have won this game by bringing in Vizc to face Crisp. On avg Vizc's first 15 pitches are much more effective than Shingo's 16-30.

I expect nothing less than another quality start from a CSox pitcher: 5-6IP/2-3ER

Both teams have seen major changes this year. Matchups are probably a better tool to use but even so they don't consider positions in lineup & who's hitting before & after a player. http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bv...d=3858&teamId=9 OH http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bv...d=4235&teamId=9 JG http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bv...d=4454&teamId=9 MB vs http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bv...d=4789&teamId=4 KL http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bv...d=3177&teamId=4 BR http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bv...d=4789&teamId=4 JS Old sig elements: may they rest in peace. Reason's to hope (losses): 04 H 35L, R 44L; 03 H 30L, R 46L; 02 H 34L, R 47L; 01 H 35L, R 44L; 00 H 35L, R 32L Road Warriors(bats): Pods 04 R 274A/741OPS, 3 yr avg: R 295A/783OPS. Igs has the best R #'s on the team (JPL). AJP 04 R 261/720, 3yr R 294/787. ARow 04 R 317/907, 3yr R 296/811. Everett 04 R 296/828, 3yr R 276/792. Thomas 04 R 274/892, 3yr R 250/793. Gload 04 R 311/839, 3yr R 318/848. Dye 04 R 247/738, 99-01 R 291/864, 02 274/825 03 DL. Koney 04 R 239/708, 3yr R 263/763, 99-01 R 284/805 Road Warriors(arms): Marky B 04 R (229/630), 3yr R (260/710). Garcia 04 R (237/679), 3yr R (254/725). El Duque 04 R (237/724), 3yr R (251/700). Garland 04 R (255/762), 3yr R (272/790). Shingo 04 R (180/561). Marte 04 R (182/570), 3yr R (191/590). Vizcaino 04 R (235/724), 3yr R (238/720). Herm 04 R (254/769), 3yr R (272/766). Road Bums: Crede, Uribe, Perez, Contreras, Politte, Adkins, Cotts. Friendly from Demolition Man: I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder gee, should I have the T-bone steak, or the jumbo rack of bar-b-que ribs with the side order of gravy fries? I want high cholesterol. I want to eat bacon and butter and buckets of cheese, okay. I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal? I've seen the future. You know what it is? It's a 47 year old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas drinking a broccoli shake singing "I'm an Oscar Mayer wiener." Moral? MYOFB!! Down with PC? Vote GOP

Ask me if I care. When people make statements refuting something I've said in which I have posted numbers to back it up that opens them up for criticism. If they have nothing to back up their statement then I will rip it to shreds with the numbers. When people say something from the gut or from observation I usually leave them alone but if you're going to criticize something I say you better have enough intelligence to back it up. If you are ignoring the numbers in your criticism then you are being ignorant. Now I've read the last 3 mindless non-baseball related posts in this baseball related thread & said to myself obviously some people don't know the difference between being ignorant & being stupid. Old sig elements: rest in peace. Reason's to hope (losses): 04 H 35L, R 44L; 03 H 30L, R 46L; 02 H 34L, R 47L; 01 H 35L, R 44L; 00 H 35L, R 32L Road Warriors(bats): Pods 04 R 274A/741OPS, 3 yr avg: R 295A/783OPS. Igs has the best R #'s on the team (JPL). AJP 04 R 261/720, 3yr R 294/787. ARow 04 R 317/907, 3yr R 296/811. Everett 04 R 296/828, 3yr R 276/792. Thomas 04 R 274/892, 3yr R 250/793. Gload 04 R 311/839, 3yr R 318/848. Dye 04 R 247/738, 99-01 R 291/864, 02 274/825 03 DL. Koney 04 R 239/708, 3yr R 263/763, 99-01 R 284/805 Road Warriors(arms): Marky B 04 R (229/630), 3yr R (260/710). Garcia 04 R (237/679), 3yr R (254/725). El Duque 04 R (237/724), 3yr R (251/700). Garland 04 R (255/762), 3yr R (272/790). Shingo 04 R (180/561). Marte 04 R (182/570), 3yr R (191/590). Vizcaino 04 R (235/724), 3yr R (238/720). Herm 04 R (254/769), 3yr R (272/766). Road Bums: Crede, Uribe, Perez, Contreras, Politte, Adkins, Cotts. Friendly from Demolition Man: I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder gee, should I have the T-bone steak, or the jumbo rack of bar-b-que ribs with the side order of gravy fries? I want high cholesterol. I want to eat bacon and butter and buckets of cheese, okay. I want to smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly might feel the need to, okay, pal? I've seen the future. You know what it is? It's a 47 year old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas drinking a broccoli shake singing "I'm an Oscar Mayer wiener." Moral? MYOFB!! Down with PC? Vote GOP

http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/sp...9&type=pitching Pitches 1-15 112AB .277 .319 .402 .721 Pitches 16-30 129AB .225 .301 .364 .665 Pitches 31-45 138AB .283 .340 .464 .804 Pitches 46-60 111AB .171 .299 .297 .596 Pitches 61-75 127AB .252 .302 .339 .641 Pitches 76-90 120AB .242 .292 .408 .701 Pitches 91-105 96AB .188 .238 .354 .592 Pitches 106-120 39AB .154 .214 .231 .445 It's tough to manage this guy. I can see why the Yanks have busted him so often. He should be limited to a 100 pc because of his history of being a fragile player but it's pretty hard to pull a guy when he looks like he's getting stronger. Ozzie needs to remain discipline & limit him to a pc of 100. Regardless of the score or any thing else. http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/ga...=6019&year=2004 He looks good for at least 5 IP w/in a 100 pc limit. If he's really pitching well that day you can get 7 IP out of him in that limit. But don't be foolish like the Yanks. They stretched him to 123 pc over 6 IP & suffered a loss. His next start he only made it thru 3 IP. His health is more important than any single win.

The matchups favor the CSox. I don't know what you are thinking to suggest otherwise. OH vs KL: adv CSox JG vs BR: adv CSox - JG has a history of pitching well vs the Twins while Radke is not much better than JG in the 1st half of a season MB vs JS: adv CSox - Right now Mark is pitching better than Santana. BTW, The Twins purposefully set their rotation to get the Mark vs Johan matchup. That tells you right there who they feel is their biggest threat in the ALC.

Any one with enough intelligence to look at the numbers knows that Ozzie was MORE to blame for the loss than either Shingo or Vizc. If you think otherwise you're just ignorant. Just look at their numbers for their first 30 pitches thrown. Both are effective for the first 15 pitches but Vizc is horrible after that & Shingo is not much better. When a manager ignores that & expects more than the numbers show it's his loss to bear. Ozzie lost the game in the 7th, 9th, & 11th. He had 3 opps to manage this game to a win & he blew all 3.

If you take a look at the 2004 pitchers for the CSox for pitches 1-15 there really is no one worth calling up for a 7th arm in the pen. Adkins has pretty bad numbers. Walker & Munoz would be dark horses. The 6 guys we have can get the job done. Ozzie just needs to use them MUCH better.

Today's news: the meltdown & the first big series http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/white-sox/ It's stupid beyond belief to blame Vizc or Shingo. All you had to do was look at their success & failure through their pitch counts. Both are solid pen guys for pitches 1-15, but 16-30 encurs a major drop off. Vizc much worse so than Shingo. This is why a GOOD manager has Shingo on a short leash as a closer & would NEVER pitch Vizc more than 1 inning. A GOOD manager uses his pen as a follows: Politte to lead off the 7th, Cotts & Vizc to back him up if he gets in trouble. The score was 5-1 at that time. Hermanson in the 8th. Shingo in the 9th. Marte to cover if he gets in trouble. He got in trouble. Never should have faced Crisp.

Those career stats are meaningless because of the turnover on both teams. http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bv...d=3858&teamId=9 http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bvsp?pitcherId=4789 OH vs 05 Twins - not much there. Stewart owns him. Jones did ok vs him. Hunter has a little history of failure vs him. KL vs 05 CSox - more there. He owns Koney, Crede but Rowand, Everett own him. Harris & Pods also have a little history of success vs him. I think the Twins lack of familiarity with OH gives him a decisive edge over Lohse in Fri's game. Especially since Koney is on fire right now. That should give him a better chance vs Lohse. Ozzie can NOT F up the management of the pen in this game. There is little room for error vs the Twins pen.

It was mentioned earlier but it deserves further consideration. Even with his HORRIBLE use of the pen, the CWS were still tied going into the 11th. Ozzie had pushed Vizc WAY past his pitch count for effectiveness. His other option was to go to Garland. Jon Garland Pitches 1-15: 114AB 246A, .306O .342S .649OPS = solid #'s. Pitches 16-30: 120AB .283A .333O .450S .783OPS = ok #'s. Pitches 31-45: 124AB .290A .348 .419 .768OPS = ok #'s. Pitches 46-60: 129AB .295A .355 .581 .936 = bad #'s. Pitches 61-75: 107AB .243A .346 .374 .720 = solid #'s. Pitches 76-90: 107AB .262A .298 .495 .794 = ok #'s. Pitches 91-105: 90AB .278A .337 .500 .837 = bad #'s. Pitches 106-120: 37AB .216A .310 .514 .823 = bad #'s. The numbers suggest Jon can be pretty effective for about 3 innings as a RP. CLE didn't have much left in the tank in their pen either so the advantage certainly swings to the CWS. Was it more important for the CWS to win this game than to have Buerhle match up with Santana? I think it was. Hernandez vs Lohse, & Buehrle vs Radke give the CWS the adv in both those games. Coming back to Garland on Sun vs Santana would still have been good. They battled last year & Garland won 2-1. He would probably be limited to 90 pitches but that's when he loses his effectiveness any ways. So we still could have gotten 4-5 innings out of Garland & then 2 innings out of Hermanson vs Santana. Look at the odds: Garland vs bottom of CLE's pen & rotation : adv CWS Buehrle vs Radke : adv CWS Garland + Herm vs Santana : adv MIN vs Vizc vs bottom of CLE's pen & rotation : adv CLE Garland vs Radke : adv MIN Buehrle vs Santana : adv MIN

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...30906&st=1300 Effectiveness ranking of ChiSox 2005 pen: Pitches 1-15: Shingo (439), Cotts, Vizc, Marte, Herm, Politte (710) Pitches 16-30: Marte (601), Politte, Herm, Shingo, Vizc, Cotts (1110) What does that tell you? Shingo is best suited for being a closer with a short leash. Cotts & Vizc are primarily specialists (good for no more than 15 pitches). Politte & Herm are best suited for long relief. Marte is best suited for setup. Did Oz use them that way? No. He should have led off the 7th with Politte with Cotts & Vizc avail to back him up. He should have led off the 8th with Marte with Herm avail to back him up. Then he should have relieved Shingo with Herm before Crisp came to bat in the 9th. If I were running the team: I would alternate setup betw Marte & Herm based on matchups & use so that 1 of them would always be available if Shingo passed a 16 pc. This gives you an effective setup guy & a guy capable of going longer if Shingo should blow a save. I would use Politte exclusively in the 7th. I would use Cotts & Vizc to get the tough outs. Especially against LHers. That's called managing to your strengths & weaknesses. Ozzie didn't do that today.

I looked up the numbers & they don't lie. Shingo's 439 OPS vs for pitches 1-15 is among the league's very best. He threw 12 pitches in Mon's 1-0 shutout victory so when he's on his game he's effective enough to close out a game. But his 840 OPS vs for pitches 16-30 is not very good. He's only going to reach those counts if he's struggling. Ozzie needs to understand this. The more looks the other team gets every night (even from the on deck circle & the bench) makes him less effective. Shingo's PC: Mon 3 B, 9 S Wed 14 B, 19 S That's a sizeable difference. In his first 16 pitches Wed, he gave up a HR, strike out, & a fly out. Crisp had a big hit in the 7th & finished 4/7 on the day. The odds were against Shingo to get him out after he had thrown 16 pitches. That would have been the best time to bring in Vizc. Though it would have been better to have Marte in reserve.

Our 2005 bullpen & how to manage it: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Cotts Pitches 1-15 133AB .203 .291 .263 .555 Pitches 16-30 82AB .329 .415 .695 1.110 Pitches 31-45 27AB .222 .300 .556 .856 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Vizc Pitches 1-15 198AB .207 .243 .389 .632 Pitches 16-30 64AB .313 .416 .609 1.025 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Politte Pitches 1-15 132AB .250 .286 .424 .710 Pitches 16-30 53AB .226 .382 .302 .684 Pitches 31-45 13AB .538 .625 .846 1.471 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Hermanson Pitches 1-15 130AB .238 .289 .377 .666 Pitches 16-30 84AB .262 .315 .393 .708 Pitches 31-45 75AB .240 .280 .427 .707 Pitches 46-60 69AB .290 .363 .406 .768 Pitches 61-75 68AB .279 .342 .588 .930 Pitches 76-90 48AB .313 .357 .458 .815 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Marte Pitches 1-15 168AB .220 .289 .369 .658 Pitches 16-30 78AB .192 .319 .282 .601 Pitches 31-45 12AB .333 .467 .667 1.133 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Shingo Pitches 1-15 156AB .154 .214 .224 .439 Pitches 16-30 61AB .262 .365 .475 .840 The ChiSox do not have any one who fits the role of dominant closer. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Isringhausen Pitches 1-15 203AB .192 .246 .300 .546 Pitches 16-30 71AB .225 .305 .380 .685 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Pitches 1-15 176AB .176 .238 .256 .494 Pitches 16-30 76AB .224 .314 .276 .590 Shingo has the best 1-15 pitch numbers in the pen. That makes him the best choice for closer. But his 16-30 numbers are so weak, that Ozzie must put a short leash on him & be ready to replace him after the 15 pitch mark. It's not closer by committee but rather closer redundancy. Marte & Hermanson are best suited for that role but they are all effective for 1-15. You should be able to close out the 9th w 30 pitches. I hope Ozzie wakes up & realizes this. He did a HORRIBLE job at managing the pen today. Using Vizc for more than 15 pitches is suicide. http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitc...Type=2&type=vsb It's quite a statistic because it pretty much paints a picture that after Cotts there really isn't an arm at Charlotte ready to come up & help out. That's why it makes sense to stick with the 6 man pen. If Munoz shows some strong stuff down there again that might be an option. I think the ChiSox have enough talent on this team to win the division. But Ozzie needs to recognize the team's strengths & weaknesses & manage accordingly. I don't think he's done a good job at that so far in 2005.

Why Oz should have started the 7th with Politte: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/spli...ching&year=2004 Politte 04: Pitches 1-15 132AB .250 .286 .424 .710 Pitches 16-30 53AB .226 .382 .302 .684 Pitches 31-45 13AB .538 .625 .846 1.471 Cotts 04: Pitches 1-15 133AB .203 .291 .263 .555 Pitches 16-30 82AB .329 .415 .695 1.110 Pitches 31-45 27AB .222 .300 .556 .856 Pitches 46-60 5AB .200 .333 .800 1.133 What does that tell you? That Cotts is at best a situational arm in the pen. There's enough there to make that assessment. He should never be the first arm out of the pen in the 7th inning when the team is winning. Do I believe the ChiSox win this game if Oz has Politte pitch the 7th? Yes. It could have stiffled that momentum which would have made it much more difficult for CLE to come back in the 9th.