beck72

QUOTE (yoyozuna @ Nov 23, 2008 -> 02:10 PM) Sounds like Brian Anderson! If you are going to get a guy who can't hit but is above avg. defensively. I should have put "above avg defense with speed". The sox lack of speed has been talked about by KW and Ozzie. CF is one of the few spots to add that speed.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 23, 2008 -> 02:37 PM) CF is a tough spot to fill. KW apparently dodged a bullet when Fukudome turned down $50 million, although I think he'll bounce back in 2009 and be closer to the player he was in the first half. I would think Edmonds would be down on the list, but you look at his numbers with the Cubs, while not earth-shattering, they were pretty good. I'm not a fan of his, I suspect a lot of his success was "aided", but he is a better option in CF even at 39 than Griffey, Erstad, Mackowiak, Swisher........I suspect KW is aiming way higher, but if all efforts fail, unless his trade refusal pissed KW off, it wouldn't shock me to see an inquiry. The sox might have to get a stopgap CFer. Yet IMO, it's more likely to be a guy who can play above avg defense instead of a hitter. The OF defense has been horrible to watch for too long.

DeJesus makes a lot of sense, but to play LF. If there is any truth to the Dye to the Rays for Edwin Jackson, Jackson could be spun off to KC along with a bullpen arm for DeJesus. Then the sox could make a deal for Taveras to play CF and hit #2 or #9, depending on how well Getz and Nix do. If Hudson or Furcal was signed, the sox wouldn't have a spot for Beckham, who points to being the real deal.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 09:24 PM) I don't quite understand how Jenks is a better bet than Fuentes. Fuentes has been rock solid the past 4 seasons in Colorado. Caufield made a few points. Jenks is also 6 years younger, has thrown in and won a World series, and has shown he can handle the pressures of pitching in a large city. Fuentes is also going to want a 4, 5 year contract. And he has a lot more innings on his arm than bobby. New York demands a winner. Bobby is a winner, if he stays healthy. Fuentes is more of an unknown

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 09:08 PM) Actually the whole declining speed on his fastball and declining k rate comes from soxtalk posters as well. It's a valid concern. Actually, he's been pitching to contact more, as his pitches per inning have been deceasing. His GB rate has also inreased. And he was pitching in the mid 90's and above by the end of the year. His ERA has been decreasing as he's become more than just a thrower.

This sounds like a back up plan if the Mets don't land KRod. See what the money and years are, and if they can't land KRod, get Jenks. He's the next best option out there for closer, via trade or free agency. Doesn't sound too out there. The "Jenks has lost MPH on his FB", "declining K rate" talk might be from other teams to lower the cost of Jenks. Yet he's a better bet than Fuentes. And even Krod has some injury concerns.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 06:34 PM) I wouldn't count on FMart ever playing for the Sox if he were acquired, KW is just as likely to take him and spin him to someone else. KW does not like to leave players of value in the minors when he can turn them into something that can help on the ML level. I could see KW turning Martinez to the Orioles for Roberts and trading Fields for a CF. If Dye were traded to the Rays and the sox got Edwin Jackson, he I could see moved in a deal for a vet [such as for DeJesus]. Then he goes to LF, Quentin to RF, and you deal for Taveras to man CF and hit 9th. Martinez has the kind of upside you keep and let progress for another year in the minors and come up the same time ith Beckham.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 02:20 PM) Also remember that if the trade all those guys for young players, they will be adding payroll somewhere. They raised ticket prices. They have always said what goes in comes out. They wouldn't trim $30 million to $40 off their payroll, raise ticket prices and call it a day after a Central Division title. No way. There is something very big coming. Even if there isn't a big player coming, I like the idea of retooling both the lineup and pitching while staying competitve. The 2009 sox would have a similar "floor" as the 2008 squad but a much greater "ceiling" in 09 and beyond if these players [like FMart and Pelfrey] come the sox way.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 05:52 PM) To get Swisher he gave up: DLS, a possible SP prospect but most likely a closer prospect Gio, a SP prospect Sweeney, who IMO is a 4th OF that could still develop into a starter Then in trading Swisher he got: Nunez, a possible SP prospect but most likely a closer prospect Marquez, a SP prospect Betemit, a UT player who could still become an everday player, but it is unlikely he ever gets the playing time for it 1. DLS has better stuff than Nunez, but DLS missed all last season after injury and Nunez is closer to the Majors. It depends on where DLS is at recovery-wise, but right now Nunez is the best bet to help us. 2. Gio has a better curveball and is lefthanded, but it sounds like Marquez has a pretty good sinker and a better change. Gio is a strikeout pitcher though he's always drawn criticism for being smaller than one would like, although to this point the durability concerns haven't been an issue at all. Marquez's criticism is that he doesn't have a strikeout pitch, but Kenny has said that the Sox feel they can make changes there to up his K numbers. Both struggled last year making jumps to higher levels. Marquez, because he's a sinkerballer, may be a better fit to stick in a rotation at the Cell assuming the Sox are successful in making some changes. Gio OTOH could have picked up a cutter just like Danks, and he has the downside of a nasty lefty setup man. Because Gio would have given the Sox a fallback option I say overall Gio would be the better fit, but it's not like Gio is some baseball messiah and Marquez is utter trash. We could realistically be comparing another Jon Garland to another Damaso Marte, which then brings up the debate of who is better, the guy who provides 180-210 IP at the back of a rotation and keeps his team in games, or the nasty setup guy who pitches a lot less but saves games in the back of the pen? 3. Sweeney would be a capable starting CF for the Sox right now, and Betemit may be a capable starting 3B as he's always shown flashes but has never been given a full season to play. The difference is that Sweeney probably doesn't get a shot at CF here and Betemit probably never gets a shot at starting, so we're comparing a 4th OF that is good enough to play somewhat regularly to a UT man who is good enough to play somewhat regularly. In hindsight, I'd rather have Sweeney because we'd fill a CF hole, but Betemit does have a slim outside shot of making the team as a starter in ST if Fields can't field and Viciedo can't hit MLB pitching. Either way, Sweeney or Betemit as starters are not long-term answers for the Sox at any position, at least that's how it looks right now, so it's not like we lost some vital part of our future here. Overall, I think it's safe to say we got back less talent on paper than we gave up, but again, it's not like we traded the future of the Sox franchise and then got back a bunch of trash in return. Would we have been better off not making the Swisher deal? Possibly, but only if we'd traded for another player. It looks like Kenny was smart to sell high on both Gio and DLS, but as it turns out we traded for a baseball player and ended up with a hairstylist. Hindsight tells us that, since Fields was coming off a huge year, we should have offered Fields plus the Swisher package to the Reds for Hamilton, but I guess we can't go back and ask for a do-over there. Oh well. But if you look at it in terms of us keeping the guys we traded and then comparing them to what we got back, IMO it's not as big of a drop-off as the board will make it seem. Up to this point, no player involved in these Swisher deals can be expected to make the type of impact Kenny thought Swisher would make. Kenny Williams has done a very solid job of evaluating the talent that is already in the sox organization. Few players that he has traded have had above average careers. My point I was making was that it is to his credit that he would admit his mistake in acquiring Swisher and trading him so soon. He didn't go on an ego trip and try and stick with Swisher another year just to try and salvage his own reputation. I think the players KW got should help in some respect.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 01:09 PM) From reading many articles, it seems that there is a very good chance that we deal Fields and/or Vazquez before ST. Now I'm not sure why KW wouldn't at least want to give Fields spring training to re-establish his value and show other teams that he's 100%. Unless they simply have already decided (Ozzie and KW) he is never going to fit their plans and be adequate defensively AND he won't be able to make the transition to LF AND get rid of the hitch in his swing (see Borchard, Joe). I think that's the case. I give Kenny credit. He's willing to cut his losses and check his ego in order to field the best team possible. The Swisher trade is the perfect example. He gave up a ton to acquire him and got little back in return-all in the course of a year.

Even if the sox wind up trading Dye, Jenks, Vazquez, hell, even Konerko, they aren't rebuilding in the sense of writing off 2009. They are trying to compete in 2009 and for the long term by getting younger, better players with upside. This is like the Twins plus. The Twins build around Morneau and Mauer, with strong pitching, defense and contact hitters. The sox can build around Quentin and Alexei, and now Viciedo, and Beckham, with strong pitching, solid defense and guys who can hit for avg and power, and still run the bases some. If the sox add a Fernando Martinez to the mix, that's a very strong core to have in place for years. If the sox add a Pelfrey and Edwin Jackson, to Buerhle, Danks, Floyd, and Poreda, with a variety of bullpen arms, that's a strong starting pitching staff as well that can compete for a few years.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 11:17 PM) Part of me thinks Williams has a standing deal in place with the Rockies to acquire Street, but obviously wants to make sure Jenks is actually dealt before making the move. Probably a good guess. The sox could also net Taveras in such a deal. Not much has been talked about lately w/ Taveras around the league.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 11:37 PM) Street's velocity was down at times last year. If he's throwing at 88-90 he's not good. If his velocity is back up, I wouldn't mind having him in the pen. As long as his slider that he throws 99.999999% of the time has some umfff on it, he can be effective. There were stats that reported his velocity down like .5 mph. Not a big deal

With the Phillies in need of a power hitting, RH OF to replace Pat Burrell, could the Sox give up Jermaine Dye in part of a deal for Shane Victorino? It would take more than Dye, but the Phils have a leadoff man in Rollins. Victorino hit #2 mostly. Though he has had success hitting #1, and has speed. Dye could hit 3rd or 4th, with Utley hitting 2nd and Howard 5th. Victorino has had some health issues, having just played the most games this last year. Dye could take over RF, and Werth move to LF. With the power bat acquired, the Phils could then look for CF and get defense there, ala Mike Cameron. While I haven't heard a peep of him being available, Victorino might be a guy to overpay a bit for-though he'll turn 28 in a week. Speed, defense and top of the order skills. Thoughts?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 18, 2008 -> 02:15 AM) What did Joe Borchard's scouting reports say 4 years before the Sox gave up on him? We can spin it anyway we want, but the bottom line is Jimenez sucks. He sucks a lot. He will maybe pitch in Charlotte or get waived for the 3rd time since the 2008 season ended. What cracks me up about this board is how they take KW's acquisitions and spin them into useful pieces. Marquez, a guy most have never seen pitch, people have pegged as a possible back of the rotation Garland-type because KW described him as such on his conference call. Does anyone really believe KW wouldn't talk up every acquisition even though he probably considers them a longshot. Marquez and Nunez are going to be great. But if KW trades a guy like Gio, a guy with much more success and even younger, we get the "Gio is garbage" posts. If you look at my post, there was no opinion from me. All I put was the information from BA. Yet I can see why some people might be looking for the next big find, as Kenny has had success doing these small moves. I don't expect much from Jimenez.

From 2004 Baseball America Prospect Handbook: #11 w/ Rangers: "Jimenez has never been dominant, but the Rangers say he's on the verge of a breakout season. He aged two yrs after the crackdown on fraudulent birth certificates and is growing into his lean, athletic frame and adding velocity to his plus fastball. He pitches in the 89-93 mph neighborhood and will flash a 95 occasionally. Those readings could become more fequent as he continues to fill out. Jimenez already shows good, tight rotation on a plus slider, another good sign of pure arm strength. He throws strikes w/ both pitches. His change up needs refinement. His future as a starter or reliever could be predicated on his ability to develop a 3rd pitch. Coming out of the bullpen, Jimenez would be a quality 8th inning set up man w/ 2 plus pitches, and he'd likely consistently fire his fastball in the mid 90's"

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 16, 2008 -> 07:06 PM) A couple of White Sox notes from Gammons: • Ken Williams is one of the winter's most significant wheelers and dealers. He is marketing Javier Vazquez, Bobby Jenks, Jermaine Dye and others as he tries to overhaul the White Sox. The Mets are afraid of the red flag on Jenks, whose strikeout rate has dropped precipitously from 50 in 39 1/3 innings in 2005 to 38 in 61 2/3 innings this past season. And although GM Omar Minaya checked in on Sabathia, it does not mean the Mets will get into a bidding war with the Yankees for the 2007 AL Cy Young Award winner. • Scouts in Arizona for the Arizona Fall League and the White Sox's minor league people are convinced that Gordon Beckham, the eighth pick in the MLB draft this past June, will be Chicago's everyday second baseman by June. If this is even remotely possible, the sox will stick with Getz/ Nix heading into 2009 and upgrade in the OF/ 3b.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 06:29 PM) Pelfrey had a decent season over here actually, and seemed to be finally living up to some of his potential. That sinker would work well at the Cell also. Not that the Mets would give him up. He's not arbitration eligible yet IIRC, so he's cheap, and Minaya wants pitching. I think he'd rather give up more highly rated prospects than Pelfrey at this point because that team pretty much HAS to make the playoffs next season, and they're not going to give up major league talent that'll hinder them from doing that. That's the key with the Mets. They can't get a second tier closer, with the pressure to win so great as they've failed two years in a row when they had the talent and high expectations to get to the playoffs. If they don't get K-rod, the next best available closer is Jenks. They might want Fuentes in set up. But Fuentes hasn't proven he can pitch in high pressure games. I don't know if other players would be added to a deal, such as Dye or Vazquez. But the sox should get a decent deal if the Mets miss out on some free agents.

QUOTE (Disco72 @ Nov 15, 2008 -> 05:06 PM) To clarify my own point, I'm leaning towards Anderson in CF since there is pretty much nothing available in FA. Unless someone not named Tavaras becomes available via trade, KW might as well shore up the other areas on the team and let Anderson get one last shot at starting in CF and hitting 8th or 9th. Anderson is an upgrade over Swish, Wise, and Griffey on defense alone and did show some flashes of offensive potential despite exteremly limited ABs at some points in the season. Since none of those three were even very good offensively, it is not a major drop-off year-to-year. I can see the sox trading for a legit 5 tool CFer [think Beltran], and still add someone with speed in LF [ala Taveras], moving Quentin to RF [where he's played the most coming up in the minors]. If the sox added a RHB with speed in LF, they could keep Owens. Anderson provides defense but not much contact or speed, which the sox need from a guy playing mostly off the bench.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 15, 2008 -> 03:32 PM) Great post. I'd like to add that when most of us here talk about potential trades and rumored trades, when we bring up prospects we bring up guys that we've read about. We get the prospect listings while the Sox scouts actually watch these guys play. Obviously we weren't going to get a Phil Hughes type out of Swisher, but there were comments suggesting we should've gotten like Melky Cabrera or Ian Kennedy or something. Who knows if the Sox even like either of those guys? Just because some publication says Marquez right now would rank somewhere in the 20's in the Yankees system as a prospect doesn't mean there are 20-some odd better players in their system. Thanks. The sox scouts have done a good job of recognizing talent that hadn't been consistent [Danks, Floyd, Thornton, et al] and making a run at them when they became available for a decent price in terms of talent. Now that the draft scouting department seems to have improved [with Poreda, Beckham etc looking like impact players], KW doesn't have to rely on project players making big improvement jumps. Marquez and Nunez seem like the project types, who need some refining and work before they can help the sox. Yet the sox seem to be striking more of a balance on how they get their players, through draft, big and small trades, and free agents.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 15, 2008 -> 03:10 PM) The White Sox have increased ticket prices by a pretty good percentage on their better seats. Given the current state of the economy, I think this means they will be throwing some money around this offseason. I don't think they would increase prices and make you watch Owens in CF, Fields at 3rd, Nix at 2B all at the same time. Good point. Right now, those guys are options if nothing better comes the sox way. It gives KW some bargaining room w/ other GM's by not seeming desperate to make a deal. Those guys really are AAA options in case a starter goes down, rather than a starter on a playoff team.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 08:35 PM) Murphy could play anywhere from 2B/3B/LF/RF IMHO, depending on how he handles those infield positions defensively, and what the Sox do in other areas. He's exactly the type of young hitter I think KW should be targeting though. One that can hit around .300, good strike zone judgement, and enough pop to probably hit around 20-25HR's in his prime (especially at the Cell). Sanchez really tailed off in the 2nd half of last season IIRC. I'd still be interested possibly in him though, but I'd want a stud prospect from the Giants if I was going to give up Dye. I think the Mets keep Murphy for LF in 09 and maybe 1b for 2010 when Delgado walks. they don't have a lot of young position players coming up. Even though they'll probably target Orlando Hudson for 2b, the Mets have to get free agents to fill their holes. That's why it makes sense for the Mets to try and trade Beltran. the sox could make a decent offer that fills the mets holes at 3 spots [sP, closer and RF], while only leaving 1 hole in CF. If the mets get Dye, then his bat replaces Beltran's. The sox then have 3 years of an All star, 5 tool CFer. Win-win for both teams.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Dec 23, 2006 -> 10:39 PM) I haven't seen all 15 pages, but my guess is most people dislike this trade? I can't say I like getting rid of BMac. I think he'll be a good SP in the AL, with the ability to regularly post a sub 4.00 ERA. But I really like Danks. And Masset has a high ceiling as well. But for those people saying the sox are writing off 2007--step away from the ledge. The sox have gotten two probable top of the rotation SP's [ in Gio and Danks] and two very good arms [in Floyd and MAsset] for BMac and Freddy. And all four guys the sox have gotten should help the sox in 2007. With the sox top competition being heavy on lefty hitters [Mauer, Morneau, Hafner, Sizemore], getting guys like Danks and Gio into the sox rotation in the next yr or two will make that much better able to beat those teams. I'm glad to see I didn't go ballistic over the trade. Most people were just as upset over losing Freddy too [though not to the extent of wanting to do bodily harm to KW over the BMac trade] For the most part, Kenny Williams has done a very solid job trading for players and trading away those in the sox organization. Why go crazy over a trade that may not make much sense in the short term? Though KW has made some misses, he has gotten far more in return than he's given up via trade. With a better draft team in place, KW will only be helped by having better prospects in the system, and not having to solely rely on getting other teams castoffs or overpaying via trade. that's why the Swisher trade should be kept in perspective. The sox seem to be making a move to get a high salaried player in-someone who can help the next few years--I'd hazard to guess who can hit near the top of the order.

This seems like a case of KW cutting his losses. The sox must think Swisher isn't going to rebound to hit like he did in Oakland. Hopefully, the players turn out and help the sox. But it's early to tell. Betemit seems like a decent option at 3b. I don't know much about his glove, which the sox need. That may make Fields expendable.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 11:58 PM) I was thinking more of a trade for Roberts. I was thinking of players in addition to Roberts. Jenks is worth far more than just Roberts alone.