caulfield12

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 08:19 AM) Greinke was traded for 2 SS who I would take for the future, Alcides Escobar & Jean Segura The Shin Soo Choo deal involved Didi Gregorius as the main piece for the DBacks, and I'd take him too. Rios should bring in a return similar to Choo & for Peavy we should ask for a return similar to the Greinke deals. If we get a SS in one deal and a young run producer in another, then you're talking about shaving at least $48.5M off the payroll from 2014+ which should allow us to spend in another area. Let's say we get an MLB SS + an MLB corner OF/1B plus a couple prospects. Then maybe over the offseason we take some of our prospects and acquire someone like Swisher was in 2008 (only not a douche) who is MLB proven & locked into a team-friendly deal covering his arb years. Add a couple value FA signings and we've turned 3 players plus their payroll space into a new 3+ year core of players. Easier said than done of course. We need to make the right moves & identify the right players. I don't think Peavy is viewed quite in the same category as Greinke, but he at least is under team control for 1 1/2 years at a relatively affordable salary, vis a vis the price of pitching on the free agency market. A lot of teams are going to shy away until he proves he can throw 92-93-94 MPH again, pain free. I'm also not sure which prospects are going to have more value to other organizations than they do to us? Erik Johnson would be the main one, but relief arms like Daniel Webb are better left to mature in our system. Nobody's going to give us much for Carlos Sanchez or Phegley. Trayce Thompson still is around 1 1/2 to 2 seasons away. Mitchell and Walker have negligible or zero value. After that, you have Beck and Snodgress and a bunch of ? marks with talent like Hansen or Olacio or Bassitt.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 02:38 AM) How is that ironic? The fact that almost every single pitcher we've ever drafted and tried to develop internally over the last decade plus has gotten injured or missed significant amounts of time, most with other organizations....30-40% while still members of the Sox 40 man roster. Other than Mark Buehrle, who almost nothing was expected of on draft day. On the other hand, besides Peavy and now Floyd and John Danks, we've had a very good record keeping pitchers acquired from other organizations pretty healthy. We wouldn't be 1st-2nd-3rd in quality starts over pretty much any time frame you look at from 2003 on without health of the pitching staff being a major factor.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 05:23 AM) So you insist the way to go is dump all your good veterans and play for 2018, then on the other hand say historically the Sox get very little for their veterans. Unlike Marty, I know you actually enjoy when the Sox win. I don't see how this "plan" makes it happen. Insist is not the right word. Being open to the possibility...with Ramirez and Rios, as well as DeAza (and that return will be fairly negligible). Where the main argument resides is about what to do with Peavy. And there's nothing to be done for or with Viciedo, Beckham and Flowers right now. You ride it out for the remainder of the season, particularly in the cases of Gordon and Dayan.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 07:11 AM) You are missing the broader point there. Historically this radical rebuilding plans don't work. I think they should deal Peavy, if they get the right return. If not, hold him into the offseason or June/July 2014 again, knowing you're likely to get less back. I'm 50/50 about keeping Ramirez and Rios. Without Ramirez and Rios, the chances of competing in 2014 dwindle to nearly zero. We can still make a legitimate argument that free agency OR trades will help to improve the offense enough to be competitive with a rotation of Sale/Danks/Quintana/Axelrod/Santiago/Johnson. That leaves the bullpen a crapshoot that could go either way...

Somehow, Mitchell is making Adam Dunn look good. Combined .143 average between AA and AAA. And we thought Michael Jordan was bad.

OOOPS. JINX. I guess I was somewhat correct about "false positives," not that it's fun for the White Sox fandom the next 4 months to be so bleak. Hopefully there are some interesting moves made for everyone to discuss.

It's a bit ironic the last couple of seasons that Herm Schneider has become renowned for keeping players healthy. If you look at that 1998-2002 group, almost all of them were wiped out. Jason Stumm, Lorenzo Barcelo, Jon Rauch (was never the same after the labrum injury), Jim Parque, Mike Sirotka, Rob Purvis, Corwin Malone, Rocky Biddle (he went on to become a decent reliever with the Expos), Kris Honel, Danny Wright, James Baldwin and Matt Ginter. The only ones who became "successful" were the least highly touted of the group....Buehrle, Josh Fogg and Chad Bradford. Then there was Kip Wells, Garland and Matt Guerrier. (Of course, Garland wasn't our draft pick, he was the Cubs'). Then, of some of our recent pitchers, Hudson and Brandon McCarthy have had horrible luck with injuries, Clayton Richard some problems as well...Sergio Santos, it has almost been like a curse when we try to draft and develop our own pitchers.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 11:35 PM) Yeah, another post that doesn't back your argument but just changes the subject. Great. For reference: 2010: Matt Capps for Wilson Ramos and Joe Testa (starting catcher) Kyle Farnsworth and Rick Ankiel for Tim Collins, Gregor Blanco and Jesse Chavez (two pros, one better than the one they traded in Collins) Octavio Dotel for James MacDonald and Andrew Lambo (inning logger with MacDonald and Lambo is having a great year in AAA) 2011: Mike Adams for Joseph Wieland and Robert Erlin (both top ten prospects for SD) Brad Ziegler for Brandon Allen and Jordan Noberto (Allen is a bust but was a good pick up and Noberto gave Oakland a great year in the pen last year) Koji Uehara for Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter (Davis second best hitter in baseball to this point) 2012: Brad Lincoln for Travis Snider (reclamation project) Keep in mind, signing relievers to short contracts minimizes your liability and if you pick the right one (something the Sox seem to do well) you have someone producing for you and another asset to trade. Do you think we will get anything for Crain? Signing RPs not only makes your bullpen better but it lines you up with other options. Except the White Sox never have excelled in these trades. What have we got back in return when we dumped Javy or Swisher? Santos? Teahen and Jackson? Quentin? As I said previously, 2010 and 2011 are worlds away from the current market for high ceiling cost-controlled players when there's a cap placed on the June draft as well as signing international players. We can cite Humber, Santos, Quentin, Jenks, Contreras, DeAza, Loaiza, Quintana and MANY others who we've "stolen" from other organizations, but almost no examples where we're trading our older veterans and getting anything of quality back in return, and this goes all the way back to 2001 and 2002. Theoretically, it should be the same principle as a Borchard/Thornton, Gillaspie/Soptic or Marte and Yan for Matt Guerrier deal. But it hasn't worked out that way in reality.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 11:02 PM) You're just wrong on so many levels. Its about acquiring assets. Relief pitchers are needed every summer and you need anchors in your pen. Who is going to anchor your pen if Reed closes? We have nothing. Nothing. Maybe Jones if he gets it back together. I never cited Webb and Jaye as surefire prospect but PLEASE show me how I did that because you're full of s***. I said they were top 15 prospects for us now and they are. Why don't you look up how Chris Davis was acquired by the O's. I'll just ignore your irrelevant comment about John Smoltz and Brian Giles. I don't know why the Royals are your favorite team to talk about but they didn't trade Soria so why would they get anything for him? I don't know who Escobar is to be honest. I know Alcides the SS but no reliever off the top of my head. "You play for the higher draft pick and convince your fans you're following an actual plan or strategy for the future (for a change)." Your favorite team the Royals: 2003 - Christopher Lubanski- 5th overall 2005 - Alex Gordon- 2nd overall 2006 - Luke Hocheavar - 1st overall 2007 - Mike Moustakas - 2nd overall 2008 - Eric Hosmer - 3rd overall 2010 - Christian Colon - 4th overall - http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t...&pid=518568 (2013: .227/.281/.310) 2011 - Bubba Starling - 5th overall - http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?s...&pid=605490 (2013: .223/.280/.353) 2012 - Kyle Zimmer - 5th overall - http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?s...&pid=622092 (2013: 0-6, 6.32 ERA) So with 8 top 10 picks in 10 years the Royals have Alex Gordon and a bunch of busts and under-preforming prospects. There's your plan and that's how it works. Funny how your favorite team is a great example of it's flaws. Here we go again. Because the Astros, Mariners and Royals have made a bunch of bad draft picks in the top 10 (or bad trades/FA signings), that means the White Sox necessarily must do the same thing. The White Sox are going to have the same revenue whether they lose 86, 88, 90 or 92 games next year. However, the difference between picking 6th in the draft and 10th or 12th can be huge. Losing 86 games is not being competitive or having close to a playoff team...not to MOST White Sox fans. I apologize (like Greg) for living in Kansas City for a decade and also paying attention to what's going on with their team. Yost and Moore should be fired, but even if they do that, it won't fix the ownership problem they have. As far as Escobar....I meant to write Herrera. Oh, well. If I'm going to do anything, it's going to be watching the NL teams with lots of young talent like J4L has been doing. There's nobody I enjoy watching on the Royals, other than Alex Gordon all-around, Butler hitting and Escobar defensively. Shields is a quality pitcher, other than that, they're about as boring as the White Sox. Growing up, during the 1980's/90's, the Cardinals were always my NL team, but I don't write about them very much here because it's not interesting to cheer for a model organization.

Three years ago, what you said MIGHT have made sense, but everything has changed since then. At that time, you could take someone like Kyle Farnsworth, Ankiel and cash and get back Tim Collins, Gregor Blanco (who they foolishly undervalued in favor of Jarrod Dyson) and Jesse Chavez (who they also let go to the Blue Jays/A's). A more current comparison would be Jonathan Broxton. The two pitchers the Royals got back from Cincy, one was around the 10th ranked prospect for the Reds and he's got a 5.95 ERA for Omaha (Donnie Joseph). The other one, JC Sulbaran, has an 8.78 ERA for NW Arkansas/AA.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 10:24 PM) It's called a reference to understand what the market and targets would be like. Unlike you, I want to win. I would rather go into the season with a bullpen and go from there. It's a philosophy to either bring in talent and/or help the team win. You're not even worth arguing with because you can't stay on topic for two posts anyways. You just go off on your tangents and make your outlandish predictions as if they are a sure thing. Because your whole argument is predicated on flawed logic. You're arguing a team that could conceivably have 9 different players in the starting line-up for Opening Day 2014 needs to prioritize its bullpen. You do that when you're the Rays entering the 2008 season and are 1-2 players away from competing. You don't do that in the situation the White Sox are going to find themselves in. In fact, logic would dictate trading Addison Reed before it would adding a bunch of veteran bullpen pieces, actually. You're making plenty of strawman posts yourself, arguing that Purcey or Moskos should be the loogy, when I said nothing of the kind...I said I would rather take a risk with actual talented pitchers like Santos Rodriguez or Henry Rodriguez (if he can be acquired on the cheap). Name ONE TEAM in the last 2-3 years that has successfully taken this approach of building a playoff team by getting prospects for veteran relievers at the deadline. You cite Jaye and Webb as if they're surefire major league relievers or anything beyond being decent prospects at this point. The fact of the matter is that you can't get Top 10 cost-controlled prospects because there's been a huge premium placed on them in the last couple of seasons, and it's getting even more difficult with the evening of draft pools and international signing money pools. It's not like you can get Jeff Bagwell for Larry Anderson, or John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander anymore, or Ricardo Rincon for Brian Giles. Look at the Royals' bullpens over the last 2-3-4 seasons, arguably the strength of that franchise. What have they gotten back in return for any of those guys? For Soria? For Escobar? Nothing. What did KW get back for Sergio Santos? It does not matter how bad the bullpen is if it's only making the difference between an 84-86 loss team and an 88-94 loss team. You play for the higher draft pick and convince your fans you're following an actual plan or strategy for the future (for a change).

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 10:05 PM) Basically you cannot defend your flawed agruments any longer. Cool. Because you shouldn't be putting a win total to a season after hearing my opinion on how to approach relief pitching. Those whole post has nothing to do with anything I said to you. LOL. What's the point of arguing about this year's bullpen off-season signing possibilities when it has already happened? Why would they have added ANY of those pitchers coming into 2013? (Unless there's a thread somewhere I missed where you were arguing this off-season that those guys all specifically should be signed for our bullpen, which was a strength for most of last season until the final 6 weeks). It has absolutely zero bearing on anything that happens between now and Opening Day, 2014. It's like saying, what would have happened if Jhonny Peralta wasn't using steroids or if we signed Puig/Cespedes instead of Dayan Viciedo?

If we're still this bad for the next five consecutive seasons, someone might be moving the team to another market.

He had to have just set a record there with his fourth homer. Only five players in major league history since 1921 had at least 3 homers and 9 RBI's in their first 5 games. Only three players in major league history had 3 homers (with the added caveat being one of the 3 had to be a Grand Slam) in their first four games (Puig, Dave Kingman and Middlebrooks last year). What's most impressive is he's doing it against not only fastballs but he just hammered a Maholm off-speed pitch. Two game-tying homers and the game ending outfield assist from deep RF in his first game. First player with 4 homers in first 5 games in Brooklyn/LA Dodgers history. Already being intentionally walked by Fredi Gonzalez (fellow Cuban) so the Braves could face Mark Ellis instead, in only his first week in the big leagues.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 09:26 PM) But they did collapse. The team is worse this year. Dunn is awful, Konerko is awful. 2 of your more important hitters being terrible due to age/decline makes a big difference, it's simply not realistic to expect them to even reach 2012 levels, let alone better than that. Pierzynski is gone, replaced with Flowers, also terrible. There's 1/3 of your lineup. Keppinger's been awful, there's 4. Floyd's done. Peavy's done for 4-6 weeks. There's 2/5 of your rotation. It's not the same team as 2012, which, no one thought was THAT good at any point last year, either. And Youkilis, for at least 2-3 weeks, gave this team a bounce and cockiness that never has come back. Then you throw in all the defensive mistakes, missed cutoff men, base-running blunders, mental errors, bad coaching/managing, botched bunts, lack of hitting with RISP, it's a perfect storm of abysmal-ness and lack of preparation. It's who they ARE, RIGHT NOW. It's now 3 months of this kind of play...it's more than an anomaly, it's a trend.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 09:21 PM) Says the 2012 season. This is, for the most part, that same team, the same team who was in first place for the majority of the season, and save the abysmal late season collapse in those final two weeks, would have won the division with around 90 wins. Except we could have said the same thing about 1960, 1984, 2001, 2006, 2009, 2011, etc. The team we USED TO KNOW is dead from those first 4 1/2 months, never to return. It has been replaced by this impostor of a mess.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 08:13 PM) 2.) http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/transactions/free-agents Show me where I cherry picked. I left out three guys that fit the parameters for the contracts and mostly because they were untradeable. Darren Oliver -he's 46 and would have no worth in trade. Soria- Coming off of surgery and would be 6 mil a year. Vincente Padilla - I personally hate him and would have no trade worth. So no. Feel free to make your list from last season's free agents. They can't be big signings either because that's not what I am calling for. 3.) We don't have Henry Rodriguez. You said AAAA pitcher I said David Purcey, same difference. We also had Thornton, Crain, Ohman and Brett Myers last year too. So no we did not compete 5.5 months with 11 rookies. The guys who made up the bulk of our innings along with Reed and Jones were not rookies. Reed was a legitimate a prospect and we have nothing like him currently in our system. Jones was a wild card and pitched well. You can't expect that season from any Rookie we have to offer. 4.) The point was, and has been noted by other posters, that you jump to absolute conclusions. You are sure we will lose 90 when you have no idea what the roster will look like. This season is already seriously down trending why would we pick up bullpen arms. You go into every season planning to win regardless of what you have and with our pitching, we are not that far away from having an outside chance of playoffs. 5.) Well you already contradicted your first point about Danish. He's beginning his career as a starter, that's that. He won't be in Chicago in 2014. 6.) You have to look at the state of the franchise. '05 we won and made trades for MLB players. '06 we won and made trades for MLB players. '07 we sucked and we traded our MLB players. '08 we won and we traded for MLB players (and dumped off Thome and Contreras in August too). '09 we lost and we trade for MLB players. '10 won and traded for MLB players. '11 We traded Edwin Jackson and Teahen for Frazier actively pursued Dunn. '12 we won and we traded for MLB players. So when were we supposed to sell off players? (aside from when we actually did in '07 and '09) Did I say Royals? Didn't I say A's and Rays? Go ahead, you can be the GM. If you picked any random person from SoxTalk, about 90% of them couldn't make things much worse than they already are now if they intentionally tried to sabotage the team. And yes, I'm sure we will lose 90 games if Viciedo is a bust, Dunn's still on the roster, we trade Peavy/Rios/Ramirez and John Danks is still the same pitcher on Opening Day 2014 that he is today. I guess it could be 87-88-89 losses, but there's no way we'll be a competitive team until 2015 if all those eventualities occur. We can make a bet right now. Your plan will have us at 75-79 wins, maybe...but it's not going to even get you back to .500.

Fielder and Cabrera combined have around 115+ RBI's. We're putting out some line-ups recently that can't beat that with all 9 of our hitters combined.

In fact, I would rather watch After Earth than the Sox, because watching one of the worst movies ever made is still better than watching the White Sox right now. Anyone care to speculate on Danks' fate tomorrow? Between Peavy's injury, Floyd going down, Dunn's return to 2011, Konerko's body failing, Viciedo disappointing....there's just nothing to like right now. Then there's Flowers, DeAza and Ramirez playing like they've never received any formal instruction, it's just one thing after another with this team. All of the back end of the bullpen collapsing at roughly the same time (Jones/Veal/Heath/Omogrosso), Veal being a one year wonder, the entire minor league system other than Erik Johnson and Micah Johnson sucking, etc. Maybe watching Beckham try to resuscitate his career, or Hector Santiago getting an opportunity to start without having to look over his shoulder every time out on the mound. First we have had to put up with Dunn for all this time, putting up with this version of John Danks for 3 1/2 more seasons is going to be hard to stomach if he doesn't come out of this.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 08:58 PM) yep, really sucks Peavy got hurt, as it will do this franchise no good having him on the roster this year and next. I still think it's 75% he can come back effectively in July and be traded for a nice return. Crosses fingers.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 09:00 PM) Been saying this for a while. Beckham and possibly Viciedo might be the only ones that I could see still being a starter. Gillaspie's finally getting exposed, too. Although you have to like that nice, compact swing, especially against RHP. The Dodgers line-up is horrible without Kemp, Crawford and Hanley, but at least they still have Puig and Adrian Gonzalez who are fun to watch. We don't have a single hitter right now you would pay to watch. Maybe Beckham, just for nostalgia's sake. And with DeAza continuing to play like he's a member of the Keystone Kops, I'd honestly rather see Jared Mitchell out there. I don't care if he hits .150, it would be more fun than watching Wells, Jordan Danks, Dunn, etc. It's hard enough to watch Paulie's career ending like this.

Tyler Flowers goes 3 for 3 and is still only hitting .216. SIGH.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 08:52 PM) Why has Viciedo been a bust? Those stats they just flashed suck. Hitting against RHP and against anyone who throws over 92-93 MPH. His loading mechanism, hand movement....he just can't get there unless they overall his mechanics. Power and strength wise, he's up in the Top 5-10 games in baseball to the opposite field. It's sad. In another organization, he might have become a success...and he still might be. After all, he's going to get at least 2 or possibly 3 chances with other teams if the White Sox give up on him. Realistically, for now, he should be part of a DH platoon with Dunn hitting against all righties, Viciedo against lefties. That said....if he can't ever hit against righties or anyone with a decent fastball....we need to find out now, not put off the inevitable. If I was the White Sox, I'd bring in a professional swing coach like Jamie Cevallos to work specifically with DeAza, Viciedo, Flowers, Beckham and Gillaspie.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 08:46 PM) This is not a flame or a death wise to get banned, but after seeing Lexi fail to bunt AGAIN it made me wonder if you guys agree our team is NOT getting any better managing/coaching out of this current staff than Ozzeroo's staff. I mean, my god. That failure to bunt only has cost us ANOTHER game. Ozzie called for the bunt and guys failed. This staff calls for the bunt and guys fail. Our team SUCKS at fundamentals. At what point is this the current staff's fault?? He just can't do it. It's not bad coaching, it's bad decision-making to think that will ever change. He could bunt 100 times before BP and it wouldn't matter in a real game situation. It's just not in his DNA or mentality to believe he can do it, so there's always a bad result...or almost always. You have the feeling when he's going to bunt...what's possibly going to go wrong this time? Double play? Triple play?

QUOTE (Baron @ Jun 7, 2013 -> 08:41 PM) Hope your prepared to watch even worse baseball....I'm pretty sure most people on here are not prepared for that. There's not a single player in our line-up that anyone would be particularly upset not to see in the starting line-up on Opening Day, 2014. If there is one, it's probably Konerko, for sentimental reasons. As long as they keep the starting pitching staff intact, they're not really blowing anything up. Now if you start talking about dealing Sale, Reed, Quintana and Santiago, all bets are off. That's almost inconceivable, no matter how bad things are right now or even if fans start coming to games disguised by paper bags over their heads or as empty seats.