caulfield12

If they can clear 100% of Danks' salary, you have to do that. Now how likely this is to happen in the next 2 months, we have no idea. It's fine if he's back with us next year, we need some veteran leadership coming from SOMEWHERE in 2014. We're likely to have a MUCH younger team next season, no matter what happens for the remainder of 2013 (okay, Konerko would be back if he somehow rallied to finish in the Top 10 in the MVP voting, for example).

And the Indians are playing even worse than us, 4-14 over their last 18, vs. the White Sox 2-10 mark. On the flip side of that, they're also creating some distance between themselves and 2nd place, 4 1/2 games right now. (Amazing how uneasy that DET crowd was today with Valverde in for the save, runners on 1st and 2nd, former Tiger Ryan Raburn hitting again after a 2 run homer in the 7th...DET has already blown 8 games this season when they had the lead in the 7th/8th/9th innings, without that, the entire division would already be packing things in, if they haven't already).

The crazy thing is that if you just glanced solely at OPS numbers, Hawkins at his young age would be putting up a mid 800's number in the Carolina League, which isn't traditionally known as a "hitter's paradise" compared to the SAL. Granted, his batting average is still "only" .224, and the K numbers look awful, but it's not reflecting the overall improvement in play since he came back from his time on the shelf.

http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2013...leyand_not.html Verlander/Leyland feud (mostly on Leyland's part)....Indians' announcers were saying that you NEVER EVER do anything to disrespect Jim Leyland and how upset he actually was with Verlander. Compared it to when Bonds was on the Pirates in the early 90's and his head was getting too big (figuratively, at that time) and cut him down to size to teach him a lesson. Ah, those "old school" baseball guys...don't make 'em like Leyland anymore.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:50 PM) Wow caulfield, not only did you claim he made post against my argument, Fathom made a post remarkably similar to my view points! First, it's viewpoint. Next, he wasn't agreeing with you. He was disagreeing with the point about how bad the bullpen should actually be. And he was arguing essentially that spending a extra $10-12 million in that area (and hoping to punch those lottery tickets in July) isn't worth the difference in first round draft position between a 100 and 90 loss team.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:44 PM) I never said anything about signing Granderson, Morales or trading for Olt to you. It was another poster's post that I went off of. No on around here seems to recognize that Floyd, Konerko and potentially Peavy and Rios We know your scenario, put together the world's s***tiest bullpen and hope we lose a 100 games. I don't think Fathom proved that all. He wants us to be the worst team in baseball so we can get Rodon. Not only is that not going to happen if you are a fan of this team you should not want it to. I don't think he ever said anything about my views on the bullpen either. YOU HAVE IT COMPLETELY BACKWARDS. IF THEY TRADE ALL THEIR VETERAN BULLPEN ARMS, RIOS, RAMIREZ, PEAVY....THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME WHAT THEY DO WITH THE BULLPEN FOR 2014. THE PEN WOULD START WITH REED, JONES AND WEBB. IF THEY DON'T, IT DOES MATTER BECAUSE A WEAK BULLPEN WILL KILL THE CONFIDENCE OF ANY TEAM TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO WIN.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:44 PM) I never said anything about signing Granderson, Morales or trading for Olt to you. It was another poster's post that I went off of. No on around here seems to recognize that Floyd, Konerko and potentially Peavy and Rios We know your scenario, put together the world's s***tiest bullpen and hope we lose a 100 games. I don't think Fathom proved that all. He wants us to be the worst team in baseball so we can get Rodon. Not only is that not going to happen if you are a fan of this team you should not want it to. I don't think he ever said anything about my views on the bullpen either. YOU HAVE IT COMPLETELY BACKWARDS. IF THEY TRADE ALL THEIR VETERAN BULLPEN ARMS, RIOS, RAMIREZ, PEAVY....THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME WHAT THEY DO WITH THE BULLPEN FOR 2014. THE PEN WOULD START WITH REED, JONES AND WEBB. IF THEY DON'T, IT DOES MATTER BECAUSE A WEAK BULLPEN WILL KILL THE CONFIDENCE OF ANY TEAM TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO WIN.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:44 PM) I never said anything about signing Granderson, Morales or trading for Olt to you. It was another poster's post that I went off of. No on around here seems to recognize that Floyd, Konerko and potentially Peavy and Rios We know your scenario, put together the world's s***tiest bullpen and hope we lose a 100 games. I don't think Fathom proved that all. He wants us to be the worst team in baseball so we can get Rodon. Not only is that not going to happen if you are a fan of this team you should not want it to. I don't think he ever said anything about my views on the bullpen either. YOU HAVE IT COMPLETELY BACKWARDS. IF THEY TRADE ALL THEIR VETERAN BULLPEN ARMS, RIOS, RAMIREZ, PEAVY....THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER TO ME WHAT THEY DO WITH THE BULLPEN FOR 2014. THE PEN WOULD START WITH REED, JONES AND WEBB. IF THEY DON'T, IT DOES MATTER BECAUSE A WEAK BULLPEN WILL KILL THE CONFIDENCE OF ANY TEAM TRYING TO LEARN HOW TO WIN.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:42 PM) You should never go into a season with a completely garbage bullpen. You can rebuild while having a few solid veterans in the pen. Heck, a team like the Marlins have some relievers that every team in baseball would like to have. I doubt they're actually going to trade Reed. Nathan Jones and Daniel Webb alone give you three quality arms without considering all the other myriad possibilities. They're certainly not going to be spending Linebrink and Dotel money and giving 2-3-4 year contracts, either.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:32 PM) Yes, thank you for clarifying. I actually quoted you in the post and said you were "being optimistic" as well. Caulfield tends ignore details and would rather say I'm a copy cat. I appreciate the comparison to DA/Marty though. Dick Allen is one of the best posters on the site here and I'd be happy to be compared with him. The similarities between Marty and Caulfield are them not being able to defend their arguments. At least in Marty's case he keeps his argument succinct and doesn't go off on irrelevant tangents like Caulfied. "bbilek will not be a part of the front office that constructs the next White Sox World Series winner." Trademark pending. Two sentences for brevity and pithiness, if you're counting at home. Make that four, lol. Hopefully Marty won't sue you for libel/slander by associating him with me.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:24 PM) Okay, I am done as you can't ever stay on subject. If we lose a hundred games next year, I'll buy you a bottle of champagne for celebration. One step closer to Kansas City's success!! The topic was the bullpen you wanted when you're bringing in all these guys like Granderson, Morales and Olt (which means trading Rios, presumably)...although you didn't state it that way, I suppose one was just to assume that's what you meant. My scenario was the exact opposite, the worst-case scenario where they were in full rebuild mode, however we choose to define "full rebuild" around here these days. In that scenario, as Fathom has correctly pointed out, patching together a bullpen comprised of 2-3 veterans who can be leveraged into prospects at the trade deadline is LESS IMPORTANT than having a top 1-2-3 pick in the first round of the draft. If you want to argue that point, go ahead.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 01:22 PM) If the Sox get rid of Rios and Peavy, then it is a rebuild for next year. It wouldn't be the worst thing for this franchise, as they'd need a replica of 2005 where every FA they brought in excelled in order to compete next season. I don't see that happening, especially with the health issues of the top free agents like Morales, Utley, Granderson and McCann. And there were so many unique circumstances there. Dye coming off a major leg injury that many thought would be career-threatening. Pods coming off a .240 something average, although his SB's were up. Iguchi only scouted by KW via video (we could use a random Korean/Japanese import at SS, just to show the rest of the team how to play fundamentally sound baseball). AJ with the Brett Tomko/playing cards/college football and pro wrestling standoff with the SF Giants. Yankees dumping El Duque/Contreras and Freddy Garcia being related to Ozzie Guillen. (For example, if Jose could have beaten the Red Sox consistently, he never would have been traded to the Sox). Hermanson, Politte and Cotts coming out of nowhere, particularly Hermanson. A reliever with the best stuff in baseball tucked away at BIRM that the Angels simply got fed up with and gave away.

IN ORDER TO HAVE LOGICAL DISCUSSIONS.....we should FIRST refer to what the actual scenario is.... Everyone would love to sign Granderson, Morales, Utley and McCann. Odds of it happening. ZERO. If they ONLY trade Peavy, Crain, Thornton and Lindstrom, they still have a chance to compete in 2014, depending on what offensive pieces they get back and who they sign as FA's. If they trade all of the above-mentioned players, and Rios/Ramirez, then you're in rebuild but not complete rebuild or tear down mode, which would obviously mean dealing Sale, Reed, Quintana, Santiago and Axelrod. In those last 2 scenarios, the bullpen doesn't matter because you're already punting the ball into 2015. Trading Peavy, Crain, Thornton, Lindstrom, Rios and Ramirez...you can make arguments either way about whether you can compete against the Tigers in 2014, but it's going to be inconclusive at best. The White Sox are not going to go through a season with roughly 1.5-1.6 million in attendance, trade those 6 guys, then turn around and put a lot of money into rebuilding the bullpen for 2014. It's just not going to happen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 12:44 PM) Straight up? Not a chance. If they add in $40 million? ok. I would take my chances with BJ Upton over Ethier in that same scenario. With the $30-40 million coming the White Sox way, of course (which is probably unlikely to happen with the Braves, quite possible for the Dodgers).

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 12:40 PM) While it's pretty optimistic, I like the approach. I really think Granderson can be had cheaper than he's worth. He's having a terrible year in his contract year. I think he's a smart player and a winner too. Plus, he would have to like coming here it's his hometown, he's building UIC's baseball stadium, he grew up a Sox fan, etc. Sign him to an affordable 2-3 year contract. Plus, he's black guy with tools, if KW has any say still he'd be interested. LF De Aza (not a fan of keeping him around but we don't have any other options.) 2B Beckham CF Granderson 1B Kendry Morales DH/RF Mike Olt RF/DH Dayan Viciedo/ Adam Dunn 3B Keppinger vs LHP, Gillaspie vs. RHP C Phegley/Flowers/Veteran SS Alexei Ramirez Granderson shifts to LF after next year, De Aza gone. No long term commitment and a couple wild cards who can become good/serviceable MLB players (Olt, Tank, Phegley, Gillaspie) Sign a couple RP and we could be in contention while our farm hopefully starts producing. DUH. Now you're copying the idea from a thread already started. I'll take Granderson in CF, Utley at 2B, Morales at 1B and McCann at catcher. GENIUS!!!! THEN, you can utilize your bullpen construction idea and nobody will argue with you because we're actually capable of contending with that line-up. Now all you have to do is go out and get JR to open up the pocketbook and convince them to play for the White Sox when we're going to finish this season with 84-88 losses at the current rate.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-b...-all-star-break This whole idea is dumb for ONE SIMPLE reason. Kenny Williams added Kevin Youkilis in June, then Francisco Liriano and Brett Myers in July. No GM was more active, even if he took off the All-Star Break to go to Egypt. Everyone in baseball (major and minor leagues) considers their league's All-Star break as a well-deserved vacation time. Now he might have missed ONE day from work (if I recall, it was 4 days instead of the customary three, or included one or both weekends in that trip, but C'MON!!! It's asinine. What did KW have to do with the White Sox collapse in August/September? He could have been out of the country for 2 full months hiking the Appalachian Trail or with a mistress in Argentina and it wouldn't have mattered one iota. Now the whole process, from what has been reported about the Sergio Santos/Molina deal...that's a fair reason to criticize him, if it's accurate. Thre definitely was enough due diligence done by the GM or too much delegating for an asset who was so important at the time.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 12:26 PM) Shingo Takutsu - 2004 stats: 2.31 ERA, .98 WHIP, 62.1 innings. Damaso Marte - 2004 stats: 3.42 ERA, 73.2 innings, 8.3 K/9 Cliff Polite - 2004 stats: 4.38 ERA, 51.1 innings, 8.4 K/9, threw very hard. Neal Cotts was our third best prospect going into '04. Former 2nd round draft pick. Threw 65 innings in '04 with an 8.0 K/9. He was a project, they didn't give up on him and it worked out. Dustin Hermanson: Former first rounder with injury problems. 2004 stats as a reliever: 4.33 ERA, 9.3 K/9, 17 saves. Luis Vizcaino- 2004 stats: 3.75 ERA, 72 innings, What do any of these guys have anything to do with any of the chumps advocated? NO ONE from your squad has experience except Nate Jones and Henry Rodriguez and they're doing f***ing wonderful this year! You should really stop citing old players that have nothing to do with anything and stop pinning win totals to teams you haven't seen the final product. Your posts are laughable. And how long did "TAKUTSU" last as closer with those gaudy stats? About a month or month and a half. Henry Rodriguez throws very hard. There's one million relievers who throw very hard. Nobody could have predicted him (Politte) to have the type of season that he did, NOBODY. If Cotts was so good, why did he only last for one season and disappear from baseball for almost a decade? What happened to Cliff Politte after 2005? Did ANYONE at any message board in the world predict Hermanson to have the type of season he had in 2005? Or Jenks? NOBODY EVER KNOWS WITH BULLPENS, on a year to year basis, what they will do. Other than if you have an elite closer or set-up guys like Marte and Thornton (in their primes).

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 12:12 PM) Yeah, we are just in different realms of understanding baseball. I like to attempt to win with an approach similar to the Rays and A's (and only temporarily because we have more money) you like to lose and you want the Sox to be the Royals because you lived their ten years and they have great prospects (who then turn into busts). You want Santos Rodriguez and Henry Rodriguez and their spectacularly bad walk rates. You want to go into the season without a LHP that has EVER thrown a MLB inning. You want Nate Jones to close. This one I understand because his 2013 campaign has merited it. Wait, no it hasn't. Simon Castro (6.10 ERA in AAA over 25 starts and only four relief appearances in the minors throughout his career.) Andre Rienzo (5.40 ERA in AAA over his career. With a WHIP at 1.57. Not to mention this season both his ERA and WHIP are worse than career norms. Also minimal relief experience, 103 games, 89 starts. No relief appearances since '11.) I am starting to think you're actually a Royals fan and you want us to suck for the years to come so a 3rd place finish feasible for them. You're funny. Because I quoted every single move the D-Rays made over 2006 and 2007 heading into the 2008 as an example of WHAT TO DO. The problem is that we don't have Evan Longoria, BJ Upton, Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, Jason Bartlett, Iwamura, and Ben Zobrist as part of our starting line-up for 2014, NOW DO WE????????????? This WHOLE SCENARIO IS PREDICATED ON WHAT TO DO IF WE WERE IN FULL REBUILD MODE, with the caveat, ONCE AGAIN, being that Sale/Danks (no choice)/Quintana/Santiago and Erik Johnson weren't traded. It's the worst case scenario. It's unlikely to happen. The Rays would never have been in a position to acquire Alex Rios' salary, Peavy's salary or do half of the things that the White Sox have done over the last 10 years. And the only mistake Andrew Friedman made was giving Percival $8 million to be the closer, actually.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 11:58 AM) That might be the worst bullpen ever assembled on paper. To that, I'll respond. Shingo Takatsu Damaso Marte (the only proven member of the pen) Neal Cotts Cliff Politte Dustin Hermanson (huge question mark coming off what looked like a career-ending set of injuries in the NL) Luis Vizcaino (a veteran, but one who was dumped when we acquired him and whose fastball was down 3-5 MPH, and was throwing 75% sliders) Everyone knew that Takatsu was a one-trick pony...and that Cotts wasn't cutting the mustard as a starter. They would go on to give innings to Jon Adkins, Bajenaru, El Duque, Jenks (who started in AA), David Sanders and Kevin Walker. I'd have to check if McCarthy ever came out of the bullpen, but he wasn't part of the Opening Day roster and was perceived 100% as a starter at that juncture. KW actually put together a much worse bullpen (other than Jenks/Thornton) coming into the 2007 season, and that was when we were under the illusion of competing despite running out of steam coming down the stretch in 2006.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) Jesus Christ. So the prospects we got in some of our trades didnt pan out. Is that out of the ordinary? You can bring up your off topic rants on random players we used to have but they prove nothing. Hahn is a money guy, sign some RPs to team friendly contracts (not that hard to do as I proved and you failed to prove wrong). Then regardless of our offense, our pitching can perhaps keep us afloat. If July 2014 comes and we are out of it, then you deal them. Scenarios: 1.) Don't sign any relievers and go into the season with the likes of Heath, Marinez, Ommogrosso, Veal, etc. (caulfield's preference). We go with virtual nobodies and have no option to improve the organization. 2.) Let our scouts do their homework and Hahn work his magic and sign 1-3 established relievers and/or project relievers. (My preference) 2a) We win and our bullpen isn't a trainwreck like you want. 2b) We lose and we have assets to trade to reinvigorate the farm or even a ML ready player. PLEASE others step in and say what you would prefer because my points don't seem to be getting to caulfield. I'll give you the bullpen I'd go into 2014 with... Reed traded (ONE cheap FA signing OR salary dump like Heath Bell OR Nate Jones, possibly Webb as closer when his secondary stuff is better) Crain/Lindstrom/Thornton traded Santos Rodriguez or Charlie Leesman Henry Rodriguez Simon Castro or Andre Rienzo (or both) Definitely, at least one power arm we're getting back from all the trades that won't fit into the rotation picture Dylan Axelrod or Erik Johnson There's NOBODY on that list that we already know is going to fail eventually or is fatally flawed....like Heath, Marinez, Omogrosso, Troncoso, Veal. It's not likely to be a very good bullpen, but that's not important at all if you trade Rios, Reed, Ramirez, Peavy, etc. If they're legitimately trying to keep the team together and give it a shot at competing with Peavy and the entire offense overhauled (and not sure how you do that without making a huge number of trades this season, spending $30-50 million on free agents or dealing Erik Johnson)...that changes the storyline. This whole idea of a cheap/homegrown pen is 100% based on the tear down of everything but the core of our future starting rotation. In that scenario, 2015 and certainly 2016 would be the years where you'd have to start worrying about save success ratios and veterans compiling holds. And we have NO IDEA if we're going to be able to get the return we want on Rios/Reed/Ramirez/Peavy...so there's always that caveat, we continue to hold all of them. The only thing that IS CERTAIN is the need to deal Crain/Thornton/Lindstrom this season.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 09:42 AM) when we start trading off players, who exactly do you think is going to be playing for us? The Jared Mitchells and Thompsons of the world are next in line. These are the guys everyone is rooting to see when they want to trade off players. Well, playing Mitchell and Walker over DeAza makes no sense, either, because both of those guys don't even belong as 5th outfielders at this point. That said...I wouldn't be opposed to trying Mitchell just to see if it lights a spark. It can't get any worse than hitting .143 combined between Charlotte and BIRM. With Walker, they should wait at least until September and see where he is. Playing Thompson this season at the big league level, unless he goes on a huge tear for 2-3 months, would be lunacy. We're already writing off Mitchell/Walker, that's fine, but Thompson/Hawkins/Viciedo, at least 2 of those guys have to become regulars on the 2015-16 teams for all that outfield attention to be considered a success.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/...five-mlb-games/

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 08:36 AM) I'm not sure Beckham would sign such a short term deal. DeAza I'd want on something like a Keppinger deal. Give him the guaranteed money but you're paying him to be a really good 4th OF & hoping he outperforms it. I'd try to get him on the type of deal that doesn't hurt much if you have to eat it, but is also worth something decent should he perform decently & you want to move him later to clear CF for someone more long-term. Don't love creating these $3-4-5 million quasi starters. We've learned that lesson the hard way with Teahen, Thornton and now Keppinger. Who would be the starter in CFer, in that scenario? Certainly not Trayce Thompson.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 08:27 AM) I think I need a restraining order issued against you Dick Allen. You can't stop harassing me. There's no such thing as an internet/message board "restraining order." Good try. Maybe management will create a new policy for your unique situation.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 8, 2013 -> 08:24 AM) At this point DeAza might bring back someone with a really high ceiling in the low minors, not necessarily much proven MLB value, but if you deal DeAza you do it to open up CF I think. Both DeAza & Gordon could be candidates for 3 year extensions after the offseason if those players were amenable to friendly contracts. Both players have been so close to falling off the radar completely that maybe they would take some guaranteed money & then the Sox would have a little more wiggle room knowing that they have some cost certainty & a couple extra pieces to move around (particularly DeAza in LF/CF). You would do that even taking into consideration DeAza's K rate, lowered OBP, baserunning blunders, inability to play CF (or even LF now) competently and his propensity for swinging for the fences this season? I think if they can't trade him, they'll bring him back for one more year simply because Thompson and Hawkins aren't close to being ready...and also assuming they don't want to spend money to bring in the likes of Curtis Granderson via free agency. With Beckham, I actually think I'd be more amenable to a two year deal....but not 3-4. There needs to be SOMEONE for the fans to identify with, even if it's a fallen idol.