caulfield12

QUOTE (Jake @ May 5, 2012 -> 09:10 AM) WHAT? No. That's not it. The 13th pick in the draft is on our team and will continue to contribute...we have control of him for years. If anything, Sergio Santos pitched just well enough that we were able to delicately develop Sale away from the tough closer's role (ala Reed right now). Also still trying to figure out why we were supposed to get a future ace for an average closer with just a year's track record in Santos. Chris Young - He and Adam Dunn are in a tight race for career batting average, stay tuned.What do they have in common, one plays CF, the other is or should be a full-time DH. A .765 career OPS out of CF for relatively little money (the average of his contracts since 2006) compared to the $50-60 million we paid or are paying Alex Rios, Anderson, Griffey, Erstad, Pods, Pierre, Mackowiak, etc. Do you know what the OPS out of CF for the Chicago White Sox from 2006-2011 is? I don't even want to embarass your argument with that statistic, it might not be believed. Gio Gonzalez - Good player. We traded him for Thome (good deal) and Swisher (who you want back)Ozzie Guillen is able to get along with Swisher and we don't have to acquire Dunn. We don't have to acquire Dunn, we save millions of dollars and have another top outfield prospect in Brian Goodwin. Clayton Richard - Well. He's had one good full season in a pitcher's park, missed half of another with injury, and is now 28 and off to a slow start. Daniel Hudson - Promising young player, but again just one full season under his belt and a slow start underway. Traded him for a player you want.I'm glad you're not Hudson's agent in 2-3 years convincing an arbitration hearing of his worth. That's about the weakest description of a young/promising/affordable #2 starter that I've ever seen. Edwin Jackson - Reliable starting pitcher/innings eater, the type of middle of the rotation production that you blasted Nestor Molina for projecting out to.You can quote me on this and bring it back someday. Nestor Molina will never throw a no-hitter, be considered the best pitcher on the White Sox for any stretch or come close to throwing a shutout or complete game in Chicago. David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system) - who knows, just a prospectsure, and when we have almost none, that bodes so well for the future, doesn't it? Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost (SEE ABOVE) Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost (SEE ABOVE) Mark Buehrle - He's old. Sorry, the Marlins gave him way more money than he's worth. Kenny would have been blasted for spending the money.If they had the choice today to bring back Buehrle under Danks' contract, a clear majority would pick that over Danks Sergio Santos - Career 3.5 ERA in the bullpen, now at 28 years old in just his third season he's doing his best Hector Santiago impression.If you're going to go off the results of just a few games in 2012, then Ryan Sweeney will be the American League MVP and negate anything negative you said about Santos Nick Swisher - Career .254 (.360 OBP) hitter that hits 20-30 HR/year and plays average defense in the corners. Played like s*** here and b****ed about getting benched for it. After that 35 HR season he seemed like he'd be great, but now he's over 30 and he's just an okay player.LOL...and we have how many of these "okay" hitters in our line-up right now, after Konerko? Ryan Sweeney - Hardly has played full time in his career and never found the power stroke that would define his prospect status. Slugging a grand ol' .386 for his career.Traded because the Sox grew impatient...heaven forbid they give a 22-23 year old player with potential time to develop Fautino DeLosSantos - His arm exploded as an A ball player after we traded him for a player you'd want back. Now he's 26 years old and just getting his first taste of middle relief.more depth at RH relief equals no need to waste more money on Jesse Crain when you're rebuilding from scratch These players aren't that great??? Sure, it'd be nice to have another starting pitcher but we thought we had more than enough. I guess Swish/Sweeney might play over Viciedo but that's dumb, we want Viciedo there for 10 years. If Viciedo wasn't playing there he'd be on this list.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:28 AM) Now you're crying about Ramirez? When I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I think he's a lot older than what the record shows, you gave my post crap as you assumed it was a get rid of Ramirez post. I think you must be currently under the influence. Like you and your boy Walker, drinking that good 'ol Georgia moonshine with Boss Hogg and Sheriff Roscoe P. Coultrane. Ramirez has been declining every season offensively. His OPS this season is around 500. He's gone from a franchise shortstop to one whose contract we will be lucky to move in another year or so. As good as his defense is, we can't afford to have no offense from over half our line-up when you've got starters like Axelrod, Molina, Castro and Stewart to cover for.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:57 AM) Peralta's HR came on an 0-2 count, is that correct? Unbelievable how many times the Sox have given up big hits on 0-2 counts over the last year. Maybe Coop should tweak his attack the strike zone philosophy some. Kind of like the slider/slurve that never developed, either for Thornton or Poreda. Yes, Dick Allen, it's possible that there are some pitchers out there who can't be "cured" completely of their issues. That's why in his prime from 2002-2004, Marte was even better than Thornton, he had two pitches.

You're telling me that Rick Hahn being named GM TODAY would or actually could somehow prolong the suffering? Until 2017 or 2018 instead of 2015? Give me a break. Those moves that KW made to salvage 2008 have ended up putting off the rebuild for four full years. But what's left of Quentin, Floyd, Danks and Alexei Ramirez? Floyd has decent value, but not enough to get a potential frontline starter in return. Nobody would take Danks' contract today as is (like the Rios claim). Alexei Ramirez would get claimed based mostly on his defensive abilities, but the time to trade him to get the highest possible value in return has passed. Without the good fortune of hitting the lottery simultaneously with all four of those guys, the rebuild could have started much sooner and we'd now be in a much better position instead of waiting for 2014 or 2015.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:36 AM) Go back to that draft on google, and tell me who they should have selected instead of Sale. You will have a definite advantage as you can select ANY player from the 2010 draft picked after the "wasted selection of Sale". Give me that name, you will have the advantage of being able to determine 2 years worth of development, I will take Sale the releiver, you can have your selection and I will bet you whatever you would like to bet that 5 years from now, Sale was the better pick. Ring, Poreda, Sale. See the pattern? It's pretty bad when you're defending using the 13th pick in the first round of a draft on someone (essentially) who the GM traded for Nestor Molina. How valuable is that? You mean to tell me that Chris Sale could have gotten us Molina AND Stewart because he's left-handed? Wow! Consider me impressed. And, ONCE AGAIN, who will Chris Sale and Addison Reed close or lock down games for? We're going to trade our best starter or lose him after the season (Jake Peavy), so why is the bullpen so important for a team now in full rebuilding mode? Chris Young Gio Gonzalez Clayton Richard Daniel Hudson Edwin Jackson David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system) Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn Mark Buehrle Sergio Santos Nick Swisher Ryan Sweeney Fautino DeLosSantos I'd like to have all those players back. Then Chris Sale ending up as a reliever wouldn't be make or break for this organization going forward.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:26 AM) Now, you're in Williams' head too? You know what the organization was thinking. You guys are going to b**** when we draft safe. You're going to b**** when we take risks. The last few 1st round picks have been great IMO, including Sale. It beats the hell out of Broadway and McCulloh or whatever the f*** his name was. The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND. You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell. You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:23 AM) So Sale has superstar ability and it was stupid to take him in the 1st round? You need to get out of the crib more. Take a walk or something. Grab a drink and wake up in somebody's yard. Can you READ? Just because he has superstar ability in his ARM doesn't mean his arm will stay attached. See Mark Prior. It was STUPID to take a reliever with the 13th pick in the first round, end of story. I shouldn't have bothered to say superstar, because there's NO SUCH THING AS A SUPERSTAR RELIEVER EXCEPT MARIANO RIVERA IN ALL OF BASEBALL HISTORY.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:18 AM) He was the 13th overall pick. It's not like he's Strasburg. The risk was worth taking and I'd take it again. Were you crying when they picked him? Most people weren't. The Sox will get more out of Sale than most teams will out of their 1st round pick. ONCE AGAIN, you have to LIKE ACTUALLY look at the future when you draft a kid. KW was only looking at the short-term (as usual) time period of 2010 and 2011 when that draft pick was made, and bolstering the bullpen immediately, as well as signing someone for less money who wanted to get to the big leagues more quickly. If he actually would have kept Jim Thome around, we probably would have won the ALCD in 2010 and it would have been at least somewhat logical. As it now stands, it doesn't help us at all for 2013/2014/2015 and beyond. We already had Sergio Santos, who was cost-controlled and effective. Why do we need for our top two prospects to be relegated to the least valuable status possible for a team in rebuilding mode? It's called planning and future projection.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:15 AM) If Don Copper is the miracle worker you continously claim he is, finding a starter to take Sale's innings should be pretty easy. The fact is, Sale was going to be removed from the rotation in July or August even in the best cast scenerio.What has Don Cooper done with John Danks? Chris Sale has/had actual superstar talent and ability. You can't take a Jeff Marquez or Dylan Axelrod or Nestor Molina and make them 1-2-3 starters in the major leagues. No pitching coach in history could pull that off. Cooper has done nothing wrong with John. Danks is clearly having a dead arm period or more serious physical problems that no pitching coach could overcome. THE ONLY hope I have for the starting rotation in the future is the possibility that Santiago and/or Castro can make it. And after Zach Stewart's no longer with the White Sox, we'll see how many other teams pick him up and turn him into a 20 game winner.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:06 AM) You want KW to hide the problem, run the kid out there and further risk ruining his career, and then, trade damaged goods. Great f***ing idea. Step away from the computer, dude. No, if you were paying attention to your computer monitor. DO NOT DRAFT PITCHERS WHO ONLY PROJECT AS RELIEVERS DUE TO THEIR MECHANICS AND/OR FRAME, NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY THROW OR IF THEY'RE LEFT-HANDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many major league teams do you know of that have drafted relievers in the freakin' first round THREE TIMES (Ring, Poreda and Chris Sale) in one decade, let alone ONCE? All supposedly hard throwers, all left-handed. It's just stupid, stupid, stupid. In fact, I'd rather they just did the TJ surgery today, and tried to get him ready to be a starter again in 2013 and 2014. He's worth pretty much nothing right now, about as much as Gordon Beckham.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:04 AM) The Sox can have Sale close and Reed work in the 7th and 8th innings. You're making no sense BTW. You claim the Sox need Sale in the rotation to be any good, yet you seem more concerned with what other teams would be interested in giving up to acquire him. Who cares what other teams value him at? Closers are extremely valuable. The giant RED FLAG would have been Chris Sale undergoing surgery. What starters will they be closing out any wins for this season besides Jake Peavy (and after he's traded to save cash, who then)? Starters are 5-10X more important than relievers on rebuilding teams. And taking Sale out of the starting rotation means we're 100% in full rebuild now. No going back. Santos was the first move, albeit idiotic. Signing Danks long-term makes even LESS sense now than it did when Sale was going to be a fixture in the rotation for years to come. And Ventura doesn't even trust Reed, FWIW.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118053548 Avengers makes $65-70 million box office on Thurs/Fri, putting it right in line with Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. Already close to $300 million and rising overseas.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:56 AM) Stone went over this last night. As a starter he throws 4 or 5 different pitches. He really only needs to throw 2 as a closer. Its hard to understand how people can be up in arms the White Sox have decided to protect one of their players. Because our two best young pitchers (Reed and Sale) are more or less worth (at least to our genius GM) one Nestor Molina. Maybe not even Molina, because we just raised a giant RED (not white this time) FLAG for all to see for any team who was potentially intrigued by acquiring him for something decent. And, because we have no hope of contending with our rotation from here on out this season. Other than that, everthing's great.

Manto said Viciedo, who went into Friday’s game batting .213 but was 7-for-23 in his last six games, has close to a slump-proof swing because of his bat speed. ‘‘Viciedo’s numbers are definitely deceiving,’’ Manto said. ‘‘He’s a guy we actually enjoy watching at the plate. We can’t wait to get to him. Although his numbers don’t indicate that, his bat speed will never put him in a slump.’’ Viciedo is a free-swinger — he had walked twice while striking out 20 times — but Manto is more than fine watching him take three big hacks every at-bat. ‘‘Every at-bat he has, there’s always one pitch that you think he will hit for a double,’’ Manto said. www.suntimes.com/sports

“It’s not disappointing to us; it’s disappointing to him because this was something he’s always wanted to do,’’ pitching coach Don Cooper said. “We’re not making this decision based on what’s best for the team because obviously he’s starting and doing well. ... We feel we’re doing what’s best for him, his career and his health. It’s the best way to keep him healthy and strong.’’ Sale has been the Sox’ second-best starter behind American League pitcher of the month Jake Peavy (4-1, 1.99 ERA), who gave up three runs in 72/3 innings and left with a 4-3 lead. Sale pitched in the bullpen last year and saved eight games. “Chris is going to be fine,’’ Cooper said. “He was upset. He wanted to continue to do this. But sometimes we have to make decisions based upon what we feel is best for that individual, and that’s what we did.” Sale tried to make a case to stay in the rotation. “I tried, but when you got professional guys who have been there and done that and know what’s going on, there’s really not much to fight,’’ Sale said. “I was more upset with myself and more disappointed in myself letting the team down. They kept reassuring me I wasn’t letting the team down. “It’s a tough pill to swallow.” http://www.suntimes.com/sports

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:37 AM) you mean the best pitcher in the AL this year? While we're at it, we might as well take the Pujols contract from the Angels. We wouldn't want CJ Wilson.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:37 AM) this is the first time, in my 15 years of sox fan-dom, that i'm officially angry and pissed at the management. it's an idiotic decision from every standpoint. You think they moved Strasburg to the pen because of injury concerns? No. They let him get hurt, fixed it, and now he's super strasburg. If that had to happen with Sale so be it. We're not competing this and next year ANYWAY. Moving him to the pen destroys whatever value he had, because now what do we do with Reed? Waste HIM as a set up guy? Relievers are a dime a dozen. Ace starters to replace your face of the franchise guy who just left don't come along very often. And lastly if you KNEW he was prone to injury, why not TRADE THE f***ER instead of destroy his value like this? You could've gotten a HAUL for Chris Sale, but no. This organization is run by a bunch of idiots, and now I'm really not interested in watching us this year and especially next year. The return of Danny Wright. Don't forget James Baldwin, Jim Parque, Jon Adkins, Josh Stewart, Mike Porzio, Arnie Munoz, Felix Diaz and the Curse of the Missing 5th Starter (see 2003).

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 06:23 AM) This is pretty good, and most likely at least 80% true. I blame the entire Dunn contract on listening to Ozzie concerning the DH position and not signing Thome to a $1 million contract in 2010. Not only did it lead to overpaying for Dunn, it also led to paying Manny Ramirez 4 times what it would have taken to sign Thome for one month and 2 RBI . KW has made some really bad decisions the past few seasons. He does need to go but he's not the reason the Sox lost last night. Letting Peavy face Cabrera wasn't wise. That cost a run. Thornton gave up a broken bat hit, and then a bad mistake on 0-2 where Peralta lit a line drive out of one of the few areas you can hit a line drive out of Comerica Park. And how many hits like that has he given up in crucial situations since he was acquired? He can't miss bats when the opposing batters are waiting on a straight fastball (ahead in the count)...he has the worst knack for attracting swinging bunts, flares, bloopers, bleeders, infield singles into holes, broken bats, Texas Leaguers, shanks, but they ALWAYS seem to happen to him in critical situations!!! It's a mathematical certainty with Thornton because of his arsenal, which is essentially 1 pitch most of the time. I guess we'll see how valuable he really is when KW puts him on the open market. He has zero value to this organization going forward, except for acquiring prospects and/or clearing his salary from the payroll.

I'll take knightni's list and expand upon it (in another irony, Richard and Buehrle faced each other last night while our future Randy Johnson's career prospects careened rapidly downhill) KW lost/traded: Chris Young Gio Gonzalez Clayton Richard Daniel Hudson Edwin Jackson David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system) Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn Mark Buehrle Sergio Santos Nick Swisher Ryan Sweeney Fautino DeLosSantos Javy Vazquez Jason Frasor Jim Thome They got Zach Stewart, Mark Kotsay, Andruw Jones, Manny Ramirez, Nestor Molina, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, LHP Santos Rodriguez, waiver/release candidate Jon Gilmore, Jaye/Webb (Blue Jays) and three albatross contracts (check that, POSSIBLY FOUR, if you add John Danks to the list). And there's another bone to pick with Williams, if that's not enough. We signed Dayan Viciedo with the idea there was a 50% possibility he could stick at 3B because of his arm. Because we lost Joe Crede to injury and failed to re-sign Juan Uribe, KW got super desperate and eventually made one of his worst moves, shockingly trading for Mark Teahen and then inexlicably extending his contract. In the meantime, we were forced to move Gordon Beckham out of his natural position and to one that was new and unfamiliar to him in the middle of his rookie season. Because Teahen was so bad, we eventually had to dump him to save money...and because he had to be included in the trade due to KW's poor decision-making, we got absolutely nothing serviceable back in return for Edwin Jackson. Without a position for Viciedo to play, he was forced into the outfield, which precipitated the trade of Quentin to the Padres (since he couldn't DH with Dunn already on the payroll for 4 years). If nothing else, Quentin was a slugging force to be reckoned with when healthy, which is more than you can say for 50-60% of our current line-up. At least that move was understandable, all things considered, but our offense would have been much more dangerous with Viciedo at 3B and Quentin still in the OF. Every judgement bad, whether it was projecting Brian Anderson as a future Torii Hunter, Josh Fields, thinking Viciedo could play 3B, thinking Chris Sale had the durability and mechanics to last as a starter, or that Santiago could be a major league closer. Chris Sale was the 5th watertight bulkhead on the RMS Titanic (aka White Sox organization). Andrews: From this moment on, no matter what KW does, the White Sox will founder. Ismay: But this organization can't sink! Andrews: She is made of iron (aka a series of bad decision after bad decision), sir. I assure you, she can. And she will. It is a sabremetrics certainty.

Major League Baseball released the complete 2011 draft order this afternoon, and the Nationals learned they received the 23rd pick, where the Chicago White Sox would have picked in the first round, and the 34th pick, the very first pick in Compensatory Round A, as compensation for losing Adam Dunn to free agency. Along with the sixth overall choice, earned thanks to their 69-93 record, the Nationals have three of the first 34 picks. It’s a great opportunity to add talent, but it will mean a significant financial commitment in terms or signing bonuses. Last year, the Nationals signed Bryce Harper, Sammy Solis, A.J. Cole and Robbie Ray with signing bonuses well over the MLB-recommended slot. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nation...hXZdD_blog.html Alex Meyer RHP R / R 6' 9" 220 01/03/1990 1 23 08/15/2011 Brian Goodwin OF L / L 6' 1" 195 11/02/1990 CA 34 08/15/2011 In a further bit of irony, the Nationals used that pick to select the same player that we couldn't sign in the 17th round in 2009. He went on to the Univ. of North Carolina and is their version of our own Mr. Mitchell, currently in Hagerstown (SAL). In Meyer, they have another solid starting pitching prospect out of the University of Kentucky who turned down a high school offer from the Boston Red Sox in 2009 to sign.

Mujica got the save last time...somehow the Marlins won it in extras. At least when they blow a save the roof doesn't always cave in completely like with Santos and the White Sox saves the last 2 seasons.

Santos injured. Quentin injured (be interesting to see how long it takes the SF Panda to recover from a similar injury to the Quentin 2008 one)...Ramirez with an OPS hovering around 500 and possibly 2-3 years older than his official MLB age, Floyd wildly erratic and maddeningly inconsistent, Danks causing us to question if the same contract wouldn't have been better put to use on Mark Buehrle for the fans' sake at least. Juan Uribe leaves the team and becomes a post-season star with the Giants and his clutch RBI's are missed from that day on. Joe Crede is never replaced or seen again. Javy, Swisher and Cabrera force themselves out of the equation for various reasons, leading to multiple bad KW moves/counter-moves. DeWayne Wise is only remembered by Greg775 and Mark Buehrle.

"Some can and some can't," Sale said of the transition. "I wouldn’t say that I can't, but this year it’s not in the cards. It’s something I’d like to get back to doing. Sounds pretty darned definitive that this is not just a temporary situation. Maybe he's been talking to his family and they suggested he do something before he suffered the same fate as Peavy.

QUOTE (Jake @ May 4, 2012 -> 11:21 PM) I don't think this is even worth responding to. But I want you to know that you are overreacting. No, not really. The exact same thing happened in 2011. Remember? Everyone was saying it's going to be hard to recover, it's going to be hard to recover...look at the 2006 Cardinals or the 2005 Astros, etc., etc. This isn't about the Indians being in first place. It's the fact that when we had a chance to get off to a good start and take first place by the horns, we completely whiffed. The Tigers played like crap for most of the first 4 months (except for Cabrera, Verlander and Valverde) and they won going away at the wire like Secretariat. 2-8 in the last 10 games isn't far from our 5-19 fall at approximately the same time and further irrelevancy. Our main advantage coming into this season compared to last was having Chris Sale in the rotation. Now that's gone. The one thing that has stayed the same is that Matt Thornton doesn't miss bats when he throws only straight 95-96 MPH fastballs in bad locations and behind in the count. 2009. 2010. 2011. 2012. There's a pattern that simply won't be broken with the same people in charge. It's not going to be enough to change the manager, clearly.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ May 4, 2012 -> 11:18 PM) Hey, Kenny got Jeff Marquez (the next Contreras), Wilson Betemit, Jon Gilmore, Tyler Flowers and Ozzie Martinez. what's your beef? Well, actually the next Jon Garland, but who cares anymore? The Astros have the youngest team in the majors, so at least they have a clear direction. Other than Wandy Rodriguez and Carlos Lee, they've cleared almost every single veteran from that roster, the expensive ones at least. What about the Sox? We have Thornton, AJ, Peavy, Rios, Crain, Ohman, Konerko, Dunn, Ramirez, etc. We're in no-man's land right now, neither young nor old, but not enough talent.