caulfield12

The trouble was that they seemed to be waiting for the Yankees to hand them an opening as opposed to the Twins creating their own opportunities. Why wouldn't the Twins be thinking that after all that is what Chicago had provided them much of the year in virtually every big game they played. The Yankees are hardly the White Sox. They don't give teams those chances in the playoffs. The Yankee's have scored 8 runs in the later innings compared to 2 for the Twins. You don't need to look any farther then that. It is perfectly appropriate to challenge that culture of waiting patiently for the Yankees make a mistake. Teams that take that approach are not going to advance in the playoffs. from startribune.com message board I also read somewhere that the Twins have something approaching a sub .200 record after clinching their 6 AL Central division championships...so a lot of fingers are being pointed at Gardenhire now for letting the foot off the pedal and playing their Rochester roster instead of flying into the post-season with momentum. I don't think you'll ever again see the Twins having a clinching champagne celebration until they actually win another post-season series. And lots of questions why the Pohlad family didn't have the cajones to bring in Cliff Lee as their "proven" #1 starter when they were rolling in positive cash flow and the Rangers and Hicks were technically bankrupt. Many Twins' fans also feel they have no leaders on the team (see 2005 Sox examples like Rowand, Everett, AJ and Crede)...that this has been something lacking on the team since Hunter left and arguably Puckett/Hrbek/Morris/Gladden/Gaetti, etc.

QUOTE (Real @ Oct 6, 2010 -> 09:12 PM) Gardenhire gets horribly outmanaged in another post season series? Shocker. Crain has been their best set-up guy all season long. He simply didn't get the job done...story of White Sox relievers for about 6 weeks in the second half. It's easy to second-guess and say that they could or should have used Fuentes there, but that would be hyper micro-managing. It will be interesting to see how Pavano and Duensing handle the pressure of the post-season.

It's going to be the ultimate match-up for Pavano if the Yanks hold off the Twins and take the 1-0 lead. This series has gone from looking like a sweep for the Twins to the reverse in the span of 30 minutes or so...with all the momentum shifting. When it comes down to it, I really can't root for the Twins though. About the only reason I'd like to see them win is for Thome, but it now feels like Philly is going to mow down every team this post-season. Swisher, Thome, Logan, Javy, Guerrier...quite a few former Sox players involved in this series.

Yeah, it's kind of like the dreaded "vote of confidence" which only serves to focus more attention on Guillen and his future. And Ozzie's never been known to let an interviewer's question pass without a comment, so, unless there's some type of "gag order" that he can no longer talk about 2012 and beyond without being relieved of his duties with no buyout/compensation, the soap opera continues status quo. It's like the White Sox don't want to be portrayed as the bad guys in this situation (like with letting Fisk, Ventura or Thomas go) so perhaps KW is just hoping beyond hope that Ozzie says something so ludicrous that the legal team feels they can make an argument for dismissal on grounds. It would be interesting to see if Ozzie's contract is different than the standard managerial contract in terms of warnings and/or events that would precipitate a firing. Like the CEO of HP did something insignificant compared to the Ozzie circus and was dismissed relatively quickly...albeit with $35 million or so in shareholder money or something like that, along with stock options too I'm sure.

And DJ Carasco didn't cost us one of our top prospects in Brandon Allen...not Top 3-4, but he was at least a solid prospect. KW doesn't like to admit his trades were busts. There's also the problem we will probably lose both Jenks and Putz from the roster, Sale will be in AAA in all likelihood, so we need some RH pitchers to fill out the pen.

Where's Elliot Ness and the Untouchables when you need them?

QUOTE (beautox @ Sep 21, 2010 -> 02:28 AM) I've been thinking alot about this since the sox traded for jackson. As much as we sox fans rag on our farm system and complain about its rankings; it has produced some very solid major leaguers. I like other posters just wish KW could the teams long term financial stability into its proper perspective as well as letting our farm system bail us out. I doubt any GM would've kept this core but its interesting to think about; the white sox could've fielded a very competitive homegrown or acquired team on the cheap with plenty of money to lock them up long term, acquire whatever was needed and invest internationally and in the draft. TL;DR Sox could've fielded a good cheap homegrown team *some cherry picking moves* DH - {Quentin} Re-signing Thome or PK in the offseason C - Huge hole here, re up with AJ or make a bold trade in the offseason 1B - Brandon Allen or Vicideo 2B - Beckham SS - Ramirez 3B - Morel LF - Rios {Quentin} CF - Young RF - Sweeney {Quentin} SP - Danks SP - Floyd SP - Gonzalez SP - Hudson SP - Richard LR - Poreda LO - Logan MR - Jenks MR - Infante SU - Santos SU - Thornton CL - Sale to me its kind of mind blowing how much above average talent the sox have given up, if they could've just done a better job evaluating from within in addition to the shrewd pick ups they acquired {Santos, Threets, Floyd, Quentin, Rios, Thornton & Jenks} they would be a model of efficiency. Mind blowing? You're joking right. By the way, it's interesting nobody is talking about Chris Carter anymore...maybe that 0 for 30-something stretch has something to do with it. Young, Hudson and Gio Gonzalez are the only players on that list with close to All-Star ability. Hudson, Gio and Richard all pitch in the West, where there are weaker-hitting ballclubs and larger stadiums that artificially keep a pitcher's numbers down. Look at Jon Garland. Heck, even John Ely and Charles Haeger occasionally looked good pitching in the NL West. Infante one of the top four relievers? Really?

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Sep 20, 2010 -> 01:46 PM) DH What do we do with the DH spot next year? Do we sign a free agent like Dunn? Do we attempt to make a trade for Prince or Adrian Gonzalez? Do we go with a cheaper option and go after H. Matsui or even re-sign Manny? One thing is for certain. . KW won't botch this up again. 1B I think there is about a 65% chance that Konerko is going to re-sign. But lets say he does go to LA or Arizona to be closer to home, where to we go from there? Internally we have Viciedo. But honestly i don't think he's ready. Once again, i will bring up Prince or A. Gonzalez. Its going to be hard to replace Konerko's production but one of those 2 guys can definitley come close. The price will be steep to get one of these men, but it something we will need to look into. 3B I love Omar and what he did for us this year, in fact i want back next year as a backup again. This year we need to look elsewhere. The Teahen experiment DID NOT work. The dude is not good in defensively and appears to be sliding even more offensively. I like this Morel kid and i believe we should give him a shot to develop. I LOVE his tools defensively and he has a decent swing. If the Sox aren't ready for him. I would love to sign Brandon Inge. I love his attitude and overall game. He is a great club house guy and wouldn't be too expensive. C I thought for sure we would be entering the Tyler Flower era in 2011. However, he struggled offensively and doesn't appear to be there just yet. Due to this, I would offer AJ a 1 year deal in which he would likely accept. Trades Many people believe the Sox will look into trading Quentin this year. I think it maybe the right move and the time to do so. What are your thoughts on a Quentin for David DeJesus straight up? The Royals are likely going to accept that 6 million club option and im sure they would love to take a chance on Quentin in exchange for DeJesus. Rotation Peavy, Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Jackson, Sale I hope the Sox keep the rotation as is and add Sale to it. Obviously Peavy will be a HUGE question mark so keeping Jackson and adding Sale will likely be essential. What are your thoughts on the direction of this team? DH There is a great chance KW botches this up again next year, if they revert to the approach of crying poor and going with another band-aid solution. As far as Dunn goes, a lot depends I think on whether the Nationals offer arbitration. Signing him is going to cost a ton of money, and a pick in the 16-19 range in the first round, it's definitely not worth it. And we've heard over and over again he doesn't want to DH exclusively. Fielder and Adrian Gonzalez are simply not going to happen unless we traded Danks and Beckham to get them, plus more, like a Santos. There's also simply no way we would give a $120-140 million dollar contract extension to Fielder. 3B Brandon Inge is Juan Uribe all over again, with a little Aaron Rowand mixed in. For as great as he can be defensively, he still makes a lot of errors. And check out his batting line from this season...very so-so for a corner INF. Better than Teahen, probably....but only if we could get him for $3-4 million per season, and just to satisfy Hawk's mancrush on him. He's one of those players like Anderson or Rowand that the fanbase seems to love more than his actual ability warrants. C AJ has done fairly well down the stretch, he'll probably end up with more RBI's than he did in some of his much better OPS seasons. This will be an interesting decision. It would seem to be suicide for KW to bring in a rookie catcher who's far from polished in what might be the final season for this rotation to stay together and make a run. The Royals wouldn't take Quentin for DeJesus. Forget that idea...before he got hurt, there were 5-10 clubs interested in trading for him. If we put Quentin on the open market, how many would want him? No NL teams, and that would leave him in the DH-only category for AL teams, and then teams who need a DH (like the Rays) and finally, teams who feel mentally he could handle this position switch in his 20's. Sale is certainly not a slam dunk for the starting rotation next year. You'd like to think he would be ready by late May or early June...hopefully they don't have to rush him. Then there's the concern about how much velocity he'll lose off the FB as a starter, and how durable he'll be with that frame and his mechanics. From everything we've read, they do intend to make him a starter. And there's obviously another KW/Ozzie "fault line" on Viciedo, with Ozzie recently making the comment he might be 1-2 years away. That seems a bit ridiculous. Can he be a full-time 1B and hit against righties and lefties? Maybe not...but for Ozzie to write him off, you know that's going to cause a huge rift with KW because the organization could have had Dunn (supposedly) if they included Viciedo at the deadline. And then Ozzie's going to refuse to play Dayan?

Not to mention Lance Broadway...

Guillen would do better in the AL with the Braves or Marlins or whatever team, although I sincerely doubt he would be able to beat the Phillies. I just don't know about LaRussa. Isn't he 67? The first issue is the salary, which will be 5X as much as we've ever paid a manager. The second issue is what is his role, GM or manager, or both? I wouldn't mind it for one season, though. To tell the truth, I think if we don't win in 2011, unless something changes dramatically next year, we're really going to be behind the 8 ball in terms of expiring contracts and roster turnover. Of course, I don't think LaRussa would take a one year contract with the constant questions about what would happen in the future from the media...OTOH, TLR would never sit patiently (Piniella had the same problem with the Rays) through any type of rebuild with youth. He would just quit after one year, but you still would have to give him a 3 year contract at the minimum.

But it was a fun in the sense you could hang out in the picnic area and talk to Carlos Martinez, Sosa or Scott Radinsky and that was a time before access to the players was more tightly-controlled...of course, the attendance back then could range in the 6-12,000 vicinity most nights. Ivan Bubbling Calderon was actually my favorite Sox player during those years, along with Gary Redus a Bedtime Story. Sad how Calderon died. Joe DeSa, too.

The obvious problem with trading Rios is replacing him. Sure, you get out from under that contract, but it took KW how long to adequately replace Rowand? It sure would be nice if Mitchell was close to ready...but he's at least 1 1/2 seasons away, unfortunately. If you lost Konerko, Quentin and Rios from the offense, your two best players heading into 2011 would be Beckham and Ramirez...of course we'd have 3 new players, but can KW pull a rabbit out of a hat and get equal offensive production for the same amount of money, something like $25-30 million? Maybe. But then when you start looking at available 1B or available RF/DH or left-handed DH types and especially replacement CFers, there's not a ton of them on the market this offseason. It's not like there won't be a bidding war for Dunn, and someone like Carlos Pena could be a horrible sign or the pick-up of the offseason, a J. Gomes/Cantu or a DFA. Unfortunately, the really big salary logjam is caused by Peavy, Buerhle, Teahen and Linebrink...there's no getting around it. The only obvious solutions are trading one of Danks/Floyd/Jackson in a package with Quentin, but that has disaster written all over it IMO.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? We should be more upset the Twins haven't advanced very far or done well in the playoffs, because that makes our own losses to them during the regular season look even worse? If they were a great team, then it would be a stronger argument supporting either the players, Guillen or KW. I mean, I get the bigger point...it's almost impossible for me to root for them. Appreciate them, fine. Then again, I'm SO tired of this argument about the Twins' lack of playoff success and only beating the A's that I'd rather they at least made it to the World Series and then lost so it would be 100%, patently/clearly obvious we needed to step up our efforts to compete with them instead of this 85-90 win goal and "fixing things at the Break" idea which hasn't worked well at all the last two years.

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 17, 2010 -> 04:00 PM) 1984-1992 was brutal. You don't want that. Not really. That 1990 White Sox team was my favorite of all-time. We were putting the pieces in place like Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Alvarez, Sosa (that went bust), Alex Fernandez, Lance Johnson, Jason Bere, etc., for an extended string of winning baseball and also opening up the new stadium, which turned out initially to be a great disappointment but it was still exciting to be leaving Old Comiskey. In 1991 and 92, you could see the potential that would be fulfilled in 1993 and the strike-shortened 94 season. Unfortunately, the Indians' monster wasn't far behind. Now 1984-1987, I'll agree with you there. There was Ozzie to entertain the fans and that was about it. Thigpen, I guess. And Fisk, of course.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Sep 17, 2010 -> 05:39 AM) Kenny is pretty good at acquiring pitching talent. Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Thornton, Jackson,Pena, and Peavy were all very good pickups without giving a bunch away. My problem with him is that he goes all one way with the everyday players.It's either been all power and no speed/contact or atttempting the opposite this year. Is it that tough to get a good mix of both. The Sox have enough pieces in place to make the proper adjustments. They just need to do it. Pena? Not so much. Peavy? We paid an arm and a leg, salary-wise. You can add Contreras, Loaiza, Santos and Jenks (for most of his time here) to the list.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 16, 2010 -> 02:57 PM) He's had a decent success rate. It would be easier if he had the Yankees job. This year wasn't his best or the worst. He miffed on Teahan so far but was replaced by signing Omar. Maybe Teahan was a short term solution at 3rd to begin with. Jones/Kotsay hasn't worked out but they are still winning games more games than last year. I still get a laugh over the Peavy trade since everyone assumed he would be a Cub. I never thought the 2005 team before the season started would turn out with a ring. Never. I thought 2006 would be a repeat WS. It wasn't. There are some still in the boat claiming trading Rowand was one of the worst moves by Kenny. It would be easy to say go get Beltre but you have to outbid and JR doesn't like long term deals. I can't blame him either. Unless it's a long-term deal for Scott Linebrink or Mark Teahen, who nobody is bidding against us for...well, in Linebrink's case, the argument was always that WAS the market for successful short relievers but there's never been an explanation given for that extension.

Well, one thing's absolutely for certain. If/when the Twins do win the World Series, we won't have this 1 WS title and 12 playoff victories versus 6 playoff appearances in 9 years (and very nearly a 7th) and only one series win (against the A's) argument. I think that Beane's approach with a $100 million payroll gives us a chance to build something for 2-3-4 years and at least a 30-50% chance to beat the Twins every year. If you read the KW article, one thing that stands out is his propensity for tinkering...it's like he can never stick with a plan for more than one year without deconstructing it and throwing together another blueprint that might lead to success or disaster, but usually ends up somewhere in the middle. And that's always the elephant in the room for the Sox...to be great, we'd have to be horrible for 3-5 years and be in a "reloading" process. The problem is that KW doesn't have the patience to do that (remember how many times they said they'd never want to go through another 2007 again, both Ozzie and KW?) and the revenue loss in terms of season tickets, walk up and advertising/sponsors would be tremendous. We'd be back to the late 80's or late 90's again and talking about moving the team even to one of the few gullible/naive and economically anomalous markets left in the US, Mexico and Caribbean. The thing is, if you told White Sox fans they would have to suffer for four or five years with teams winning 65-75 games, then you'd be rewarded with at least one World Series appearance, most Sox fans would take that bargain. But the counterexample will always be where is that World Series for the Pirates, Orioles, Indians (they were close), Nationals, Royals, Blue Jays, Mariners, etc.

We might not be that far from greatness, but it's also hard to argue how we could possibly be improved... 1) Beckham would need to put up an 850-875 OPS 2) Quentin would need to hit consistently all year, especially on the road 3) We'd have to find the money to resign Konerko and AJ 4) We'd have to find a replacement for Jones/Kotsay with seemingly no money to spend (except on Manny Ramirez) 5) Peavy has to be 100% 6) The Twins would have to succumb to even more injuries or bad luck than they did this year (Morneau concussion)...and not bring in any new FA's, and possibly lose both Hudson and Thome, although I can't imagine Jim retiring OR not going back there again in 2011. And you know Ozzie and KW wouldn't bring him back, Jim would probably refuse after Ozzie's idiotic comments and if he did come back, he would be done after all. 7) The one big improvement would seemingly be Chris Sale waiting in the wings instead of Harrell/Torres/Pena 8) The bullpen has to replace Jenks, probably Putz, 50/50 KW lets Pena go, and Sale might be starting in the minors or majors (if Peavy isn't ready)...so that leaves Thornton and Linebrink, NOT good at all, and a huge concern coming off our 2nd half struggles in that area 9) Morel would have to come in and put up a 750 OPS and play Gold Glove caliber defense, because we can't rely up Teahen or Viciedo defensively, and Vizquel due to his age 10) We have to hope the "good" Alex Rios turns up again

The Rockies are kind of like the White Sox, except they're notorious for being hot in the second half of the season. They were pretty good in the mid 90's, went through a pretty long dry spell of rebuilding and losing about 1/3rd of their fanbase, but they've worked hard to become a competitive team through a combination of good drafting and some key trades like the one for CarGo. The Padres were pretty decent in the first half the decade and then turned to a rebuilding mode with the exception of holding onto Adrian Gonzalez. Braves fit that mold....the Rangers, to some extent, they had a core of players like Michael Young and Ian Kinsler, but most of that team has been built around those guys by Daniels, who started off learning on the job but who has rebounded nicely to become one of the best young GM's in the game, and his background was actually in retail/marketing at the corporate level.

Which means you have to make Quentin a DH or dump him and then have to replace both Quentin and Konerko offensively (making Rios, Beckham and Ramirez your top 3 offensive players)... And not having Teahen/Viciedo at 3B. You probably also can't count on Vizquel to repeat this season's success again...certainly not to be the starter at 3B. So that means Morel at 3B, Viciedo/Teahen at 1B/DH and a new RF/DH if/when you ditch Quentin. That's #1) a tremendous amount of offense to replace in the line-up and 2) a plan that will really ago awry if Morel, Teahen, Viciedo and possibly Flowers don't hit. I think Viciedo will hit, but we have no idea (we can guess) in terms of projecting out Morel, Flowers or even Teahen for a full season. One thing it does mean is that our pitching staff and bullpen will have even more pressure placed on them than the starters did the first two months of this season, with the scenario of losing both Quentin and Konerko. There's no way in hell they're going to be able to dump Teahen without eating 75% or more of his contract. So we're stuck with him, for better or worse. And the idea of Manny Ramirez coming back to Chicago is now officially laughable in the span of 10 days. That took some work, Manny.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 08:41 PM) Duensing should be up for Cy Young votes based on his amazing contributions this season (not really, but it's hard to argue with his productivity). Something they were talking about on the radio the other day is how the Twins are going to be a hot spot for FA pitchers, as everyone would love to pitch half their games in that cavernous park. And that's the scary thing...they're six pitchers deep right now, and that's not even including the likes of Perkins and Swarzak. Kyle Gibson has the ability on paper to be a 1/2, frontline starter in the Garza mode. We actually might have to trade away one of our four starters due to payroll concerns...we probably don't bring Garcia back (unless Ozzie's still manager) and who knows what we'll get out of Peavy. In 2012/13, things are looking even more bleak. The only thing that will save the White Sox is Sale becoming an ace, and the odds of that lasting (and we don't know how his velocity and mechanics would hold up over 175-225 IP) for 6 years isn't that great on the surface, either.

I think it all depends on Duensing. If he can take some of their LH hitters out of play and somehow beat the Yankees, the Twins have a 50/50 chance to beat the Yankees. It's really hard to pick just three starters...they can set up for the playoffs early, or decide to go with Baker/Slowey/Blackburn as the 4th. Blackburn, since being recalled from AAA, has probably pitched the best of those 3 guys at the back end of the rotation, although Duensing has faltered a little bit as well.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 09:11 PM) Nice try. The pitching sucked. When that sucks along with defense (2 years in a row, starting 3rd baseman loses job)nothing can overcome that. Next. When we've had Vizquel at 3B and Andruw Jones in RF, it has been the best White Sox defensive alignment since the late 50's/early 60's ballclubs with Aparicio and Nellie Fox. Actually, most of the time, although the Twins are first in fielding percentage, the White Sox have actually been the better overall defense because 75% of the Sox errors have come in bunches and Kubel, Cuddyer and Delmon Young are all horrible whenever they attempt to play defense (except against us).

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 09:08 PM) The team was built poorly. They were built on the idea that we could recreate the 2005 pitching staff and be lights out and win 3-2 games all year long. This is not the NL. We play in the American League and in a stadium that plays like a bandbox in the summer. We took a valuable position and put two bench players and made it into a mess. Its the typical Ozzie formula, take a crappy player that should be the last man on the bench and overuse him. The first two months when we had a horrible horrible offense might of been mitigated a bit if we say actually had 9 hitters up there instead of 8 and a pitcher. And yet we had our surge in June and July, two of the hottest months when the park played smallest and we hit a lot of homers. The offensive numbers, overall, aren't terrible at all, and probably better than most of us predicted. It has been the bullpen and more recently again the starting pitching that has really been the reason for our downfall...along with a tougher schedule and the fact that the Twins have been playing out of their minds without Morneau for the second year in a row down the final stretch.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 15, 2010 -> 09:05 PM) You don't know that. If we got off to a better start this year, especially offensively. we would have had a lot more breathing room. Don't forget Kotsay's horrible ability to hit with RISP and the rally killing that resulted. It would have helped if Pierre and Ramirez hit in the first two months as well... Just so many things you can point to, AJ's hitting pretty much all season, Beckham being last in the majors in OPS about 3 months ago, Quentin's complete inability to hit on the road, the list goes on and on. Pierre and Kotsay were egregiously horrible with RISP during that timeframe. And yet you can trace a lot of the problems to starting pitching (with the exception of Garcia) the first two months and the bullpen struggles over the last two months.