caulfield12

Agree about Santiago...as we might be losing both Danks and Buehrle. Addison Reed has to have a place in there somewhere, obviously. Possibly Lindsay, Infante, Jihan Martinez (Marlins' acquisition), we can fill out the two end pieces from our system or trading away Danks and/or Quentin. The one thing I don't like about keeping Quentin is that it forces DeAza back to the bench, essentially, or Viciedo back to AAA. Unless we're just totally giving up on Dunn, and it doesn't seem like we can afford to do that YET. Keeping Gavin, that's a 50/50 proposition, depending upon what he's worth to other teams. I'm not sure spending $30 million for 3 years (something like that) makes much sense from the standpoint of the Sox rebuilding to keep him around, but obviously dealing both Floyd AND Danks AND losing Buehrle, doesn't seem that all THREE of those things can happen for us to remain competitive in 2012.

QUOTE (spiderman @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 10:28 PM) It's not going to be a total rebuild, but I do expect 2 themes: 1) Save payroll whereever possible* 2) Mix in as many young players as possible. *The exception to this rule is Mark Buerhle. Do they give him a 2 or 3 year deal at $12 million or so (which is less than he's making now)? I think it's doubtful unless he takes a significant discount (say $10 millin a season for 1 year with a club option on Year 2), which is unlikely given that he'll likely find an attractive deal on the open market. C - A.J. Pierzynski: He's due to make $6 million next season. I expect the White Sox to move him to anyone who wants him. I think the White Sox will be happy to take little in return assuming the team who acquires him picks up the remainder of the deal. I'd prefer to have him come back since I'm not convinced that Tyler Flowers will hit .230 in a full season and he can also provide another left handed bat, and possibly some at-bats at DH if Dunn doesn't produce again. Still, I think there will be a few suitors for A.J., on a 1 year deal, likey saving the White Sox $6 million next season. 1B - Paul Konerko: He's getting older, and it's a shame that his last 2 seasons have gone for nothing, but he's one of the few offensive bright spots, and despite the impending age, is the least of the concerns for the White Sox. 2B - Gordon Beckham: He's been a bust. Yes, he plays pretty good defense, but he simply can't be given the 2B job next spring training without a battle. Personally, I'd love to see Brent Lillibridge get a shot here, but my guess is that the White Sox view him as a utility player. The player acquired from Florida, I believe Ozzie Martinez, is also being viewed as a possible 2B. In either case, this position will be filled internally next season. 3B - Brent Morel: Good defensive player who was a pretty bad hitter this season. He has to get on base more to be a productive player, and hopefully can keep the power stroke going next season. I'd like to think he can increase his OBP next season by drawing a few more walks, and hit about 15-20 HR. I may be aiming high here, but he's the unquestioned 3B of the future (for now). SS - Alexi Ramirez: Still hoping him to put up better offensive numbers, but this may be what he iis, and that's a pretty solid MLB SS. Not great, but will make the defensive plays, and is a good position to have settled for the long-term. LF - D.Viceido: This is the one guy from the minors who has upside and is their home grown prospect (well, sort of). I expect Juan Pierre to be allowed to walk, saving the White Sox a few million. CF / RF: De Aza and Rios: I would hope that there is somebody else involved here. It could be Lillibridge. I'd prefer to see Rios in RF going forward, maybe an occasional start in CF and I think De Aza, based on strong play this season on the White Sox, is the favorite to earn regular playing time in CF/RF next season. OF is a spot the White Sox ould still add help via trade so I leave open the possibility that another young player could be added to the mix here. Carlos Quentin will be moved via trade since Vicedio can replace him and the Sox aren't likely to pay him on a long-term deal. He can save the team another $8 million or so, and net them a good prospect (or two) in a down market for power hitting. SP: Chris Sale will be in the rotation. I think Mark Buerhle will be gone - that saves around $14 million if they let him walk. I think the White Sox will try to sign John Danks to a long-term deal, but, if not, he'll be on the market, and he's a guy they can bring back 2 good prospects for. It's unlikely both prospects could help immediately, but, if one is a young pitcher, that's another guy who could be in the mix. Gavin Floyd could also be on the market - I suspect it's either Danks or Floyd - and he can probably bring back a good prospect because he's under the teams' control for another 2 seasons and is a solid MLB starter, albeit a bit up and down. Phillip Humber had a good season - I'd love to see him have to earn a spot, but my guess is that with Zach Stewart and maybe another young guy from a trade in the mix, he'll be as high as the #2 or 3 starter. Jake Peavy probably can start no better than a #4 starter, maybe #5 early on because he can be passed on off-days. So, I think we're looking at having 1) Danks or Floyd, 2) Humber 3) Sale 4) Peavy 5) Stewart/Axelrod (with the chance of another young prospect being in the mix. Sale has top of the rotation stuff, but could take time to develop, but this is a rotation that is likely to get hit hard in the AL. RP: Will probably be strength of the team again. Jason Frazior could be moved to save a few million, but it still leaves them with a solid closer in Sergio Santos, 2 leftie relievers in Matt Thornton and Will Ohman, and Jessie Crain fron the right side. Stewart and/or Axerlrod got their feet wet so they could be in the mix here as well. It's not going to be as deep if Sale and Frazior are not in the bullpen, but it's still 4 deep, and that could be a lot worse. So, from possibly letting Buerhle and his $14 million go via free agency, trading A.J, and Frazior to save another $6-8 million depending on how the financials are worked out, plus re-tooling the OF by allowing Pierre to leave and moving Quentin (along with another starter in either Floyd or Danks), the White Sox could potentially cut payroll by around $25-$30 million. In exchange for all this payroll, the White Sox will probably acquire 3 or 4 good prospects (primarily for Danks and Quentin) although there's a reasonable assumption that at least 2 of these 4 guys wouldn't be MLB ready. Still, adding 2 guys who could compete for a spot, say one in the OF and another as a starting pitcher would provide some much needed young ntalnet and payroll relief. Bottom line, the team is likely to be down for a few seasons until they can start developing more young talent and get out from under the bad contracts on the team. I highly doubt this team spends $125 million anytime soon - we'll probably looking at a max payroll of $100 million, maybe less. If Adam Dunn and Alex Rios can provide some offense to help Konerko, then there is less dependence on the starting pitching, but will probably only allow them to hang around in a weak division. With how poorly FRASOR pitched, he's definitely someone KW has to be wavering on offering arbitration and/or picking up the club option. OTOH, he's not going to want for Stewart to be the ONLY return for Edwin Jackson, either. In general, in agreement with almost all of what you said. I think Peavy has to come to spring training ready to be a legit TOP 3 starter again for this team to have ANY chance to compete. I'm not sure how easy it will be to get rid of AJ without eating a little bit of that contract, perhaps $1-1.5-2.0 million.

There's ZERO chance that was written by Ozzie Guillen personally. It was written by someone in the PR office of the Florida Marlins, 100%. There's not a single grammatical error....so obvious, it's not Ozzie's style of expression at all.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 11:17 PM) OK, Francona is likely gone according to this Fox story by Rosenthal that just went up on the Web. How can the White Sox NOT hire this guy. This could work out GREAT in the long run. As much as I LOVE Ozzie, Tito HAS TO BE the man. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/manager...-red-sox-092911 Tnis guy has won TWO WS and we don't want him? Over a couple million bucks? If we don't hire him this has been a s*** time for me. Lose Ozzie and my favorite team won't hire a 2-time WS champion manager who is just 52 years old??? f***. Has he ever won a World Series with a payroll of $90-105 million? That's perhaps the main issue of importance.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 10:28 PM) Okay CF, but please no more beatdowns. I mean that was severe. Since you joined in 2004, I was really hoping you could pull a post out of the hat suggesting your current deconstruction/rebuild-THINK but for the impending 2005 season. That would be most impressive. I don't think anyone honestly could have predicted the 2005 or 2008 seasons going in...just like no Red Sox fan possibly could have predicted September, 2011. Or a White Sox fan predicting 26-5 in 2010 or 4-18 in 2011.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 08:17 PM) So much so that I'm thinking about putting him on IG-NORE. C'mon Marty, I'd miss you too much!!! You and your comrade-in-arms, VictoryMC. Once upon a time, there was a poster at chisox.com named Ncorgbl. You aren't even close to him as a poster in terms of daftness and tin-foiled theories. Keep it up.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 08:48 PM) Not to use a college basketball analogy but Roy Williams at Kansas had a winning "culture" to the tune of about an .820 win percentage. Virtually all of his assistant coaches were huge flops when they became head coaches including Matt Doherty who just about killed Carolina's program he was so bad. COACH K's tree at DUKE hasn't been so successful either Brey foundered originally but has done well recently at ND Quin Snyder, enough said Tommy Amaker, failed at Michigan, "banished" to Harvard David Henderson has done fairly well at a smaller school, Delaware I think Cris Collins, Wojo and Dawkins If you want a successful coaching tree, try Hayden Fry's at Iowa from the late 80's/early 90's Kirk Ferentz, Iowa, 1999–present Bob Stoops, Oklahoma, 1999–present Mike Stoops, Arizona, 2004–present Bill Snyder, Kansas State, 1989–2005, 2009–present Barry Alvarez, Wisconsin, 1990–2005 Bret Bielema, Wisconsin, 2006–present Dan McCarney, Iowa State, 1995–2006, North Texas 2011–present Chuck Long, San Diego State, 2006–2008 Jim Leavitt, South Florida, 1996–2009 Bo Pelini, Nebraska, 2008–present I'd put a LITTLE more credibility into the coaching tree idea for football than for baseball. That said, it's certainly far from irrelevant.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 07:21 PM) Alomar may prove to be a better manager than Martinez none of us know. What we do know is that Alomar would be the comfortable pick for this organization. I think they need something more than "comfortable" at this point in time even if that comes with more risk. I like the assumed risk here of Martinez more than the considerably higher risk of trading Ramirez and Santos for prospects with KW as GM.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 06:03 PM) Yes. Exactly. He markets himself well, and clearly that's the direction he's been taking his brand the last 3-4 seasons with the tweeting, the proposed website... he wants to create a Guillen-family legacy far beyond managing and playing. I can see an Osbournes-esque reality t.v. show not too far in the future... Loria will like it, as long as it makes him more profit.

I was just playing Devil's Advocate back. Guillen and KW are equally responsible for Swisher, IMO. It was never a good fit, with Ozzie, or the entire veteran-led clubhouse. KW knew bringing in both Cabrera and Swisher would lead to some volatility. If he didn't anticipate it, he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 04:00 PM) He had PK, Dye, Thome, TCQ, Alexei in his one year here before we dumped him for nothing cause his sparkiness couldn't be handled. But none of those guys were leadoff hitters, unfortunately. Except Alexei on Opening Day, I think.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:59 PM) You're making stuff up. Joe Cowley doesn't do that? Surely, you jest. I thought all journalists were filled to the brim with integrity and a never-ending desire to win a Pulitzer.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:54 PM) What? You clearly saw the 2004 team, at the end of that season...had the makings of the 2005 World Series champions, largely because Ozzie "Knute Rockne" Guillen was the manager? But because of Ozzie's absence, the 2012 White Sox have zero chance to compete for the World Series title, correct Wizard from Zanzibar? My point is, with your all-seeing, all-knowing omniscient omnipotence, clearly you've correctly foreseen everything that has ever happened in the history of the White Sox and perhaps the rest of the world, true? Just hoping you could put that same talent into good use to save lives, that's all. Or at least enrich yourself by picking the winning lottery numbers.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:45 PM) I was serious in all of those statements. Ozzie is definitely brilliant. He managed to make himself a superstar in this whole ordeal, and despite being a failed manager for 3 straight years making his move to Miami big-time news while getting another $10 million. He's making money. So Ozzie is an entertainer, more like Lady Gaga or Rush Limbaugh in leveraging his own brand to personally enrich himself? I'll buy that.

Watch Ricardo Andres be the only player of the 3 who makes it to the big leagues... That would be pretty telling for KW's not so renowned Latin American scouting department.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:46 PM) This post speaks for itself. You see a potential World Series team in the making. I do not. But you clearly did in 2004, right? You were there with Rodin to notice "The Thinker" lurking in that block of granite...or warning onloading passengers to leave the Titanic before its maiden voyage, or the Hindenburg. Only Kenny "The Genius" Williams can see it. Mere mortals cannot.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) KW should be fired if he doesn't go after the best available guy. I have this weird feeling some guys may turn the job down, though. You got a pretty boy GM with an ego and an owner who at any moment might go on the cheap again. And you got the Dunn problem. Assuming he has a blank checkbook. Which clearly he doesn't. Otherwise, any one of us could get on a plane (ala Billy Beane in MONEYBALL), go to St. Pete and bring Dave Martinez back as the new Sox manager, or Terry Francona, for that matter. And the manager has to be signed off on by JR, as well. So if JR wanted to spend $7.5 million, give LaRussa a seat on the board/partial ownership interest and promised a "golden parachute/front office" position for TLR at age 70, do you really think LaRussa would still stay in St. Louis?

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) Misconception: Ozzie was a good in-game manager. Misconception: Ozzie was good for the image of the Chicago White Sox. Misconception: Ozzie cares about you. Misconception: Ozzie is in it for anything but money. Misconception: Ozzie is not brilliant. Phil Rogers called Ozzie, not KW, a "genius." (That was Marty on KW) That must make it true, and empirically more true or valid than anything said on a messageboard or blog.

Greg will poll 100 Jayhawks fans and they will claim never to have heard of Dunn or Rios but will be conspicuously wearing their brand-new Miami Marlins glow-in-the-dark gear. After Bill Self and Roy Williams, #3 on their "I'd most like to have a beer with..." list would be Ozzie Guillen, followed by the Reverend Fred Phelps, anyone from the cast of "The Big Bang Theory" and Minka Kelly.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) Well if Marty were running the team, think of what we could have gotten for Crede, Rowand, Buehrle, PK, Garland, and Garcia after '04!!! That 2007 team would have been STACKED Just like the Twins and Indians really took off with the hauls they got back for Johan Santana and CC Sabathia...clearly the White Sox could have leveraged an even bigger haul for their remaining stable of players. We could have sold "high" on Bobby Jenks before he ever pitched for the Sox because clearly he was going to break down in 2010 and 2011 as he was only a one inning, 60 IP per season pitcher.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:24 PM) Swishers numbers by year (OBP and OPS): .322 .768 .372 .864 .381 .836 .332 .743 .371 .869 .359 .870 .374 .822 Such a shame Ozzie hated him. Maybe Swisher just needed.... 1) To be surrounded by All-Stars at every position so his offensive game would pass by unnoticed 2) Not to be forced into the leadoff spot, which is at least 50% KW's fault because Cabrera wasn't a protypical leadoff hitter and Jerry Owens was doomed to fail...at least to objective scouts who had been following him since his Expos/Nationals days 3) A wind tunnel to the RF bleachers In the end, it's still far from clear the Yankees will retain his services. We'll see.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:14 PM) So the gist of all this is the Sox aren't 15 games worse than the Tigers? If you believe that, good for you. Well, Marty "The Genius" 34. We finished 9-10 games back of the Twins in 2004. Clearly they were more talented, they'd crushed the White Sox in 2003 and won three consecutive division championships. So tearing apart the entire organization and dumping everyone to rebuild at that point in time would have been the prudent move from a financial standpoint in order to protect JR's pocketbook. Oooops, they did that, well, sort of....getting rid of Ordonez, Lee and Valentin. But KW clearly didn't trade away every talented player left for "prospects/suspects," like you're suggesting with Ramirez and Santos. And we actually won the World Series the following year. What do you know? A clever retort besides we finished 15 games behind the Tigers would be nice, but I'm not expecting much...thanks in advance for your time and consideration. So Marty, how is 2011-12 any different for this organization with KW in charge than 2004-2005? Because we finished 9-10 GB instead of 15 and were OH SO CLOSE (seemingly) to the juggernaut Twins?

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 02:03 PM) Can it be argued the second Swisher trade was Ozzie's fault because he forced Williams hand? We should also blame the entire veteran clubhouse, too? DeWayne Wise, for being on the roster to take his place? What about Greg Walker and Steve Swisher, for him refusing to work with his own batting coach? Like the Rasmus situation in St. Louis, should Ozzie have forced him against his will to work with Greg "The Guru" Walker?

I know. We should name Bill James as our manager, just to prove how good (or bad) the father of all SABR movements would actually be as a "real" manager and not just a Strat-O-Matic one. Probably a better idea than Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashian. Although Ryno's a close 2nd, just because it would annoy the Cubs' columnist from the Quad-City Times who named his first-born son after him.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 03:06 PM) I'm personally offended by your use of logic Well, sometimes it works. Surely, it will end up with a brief, pithy one or two sentence deflection about Kenny "The Genius" Williams.