caulfield12

I think one of the original reasons he chose the White Sox was definitely the closeness of the relationship with Jaime Torres, KW and the "kinship" and success enjoyed by El Duque, Contreras and Alexei Ramirez with the White Sox from 2004 through the present. No doubt about that. Many felt we had our own version of a "Cuban Pipeline" of incoming talent. Of course, Viciedo changed agents to Boras eventually...personally, I don't think he will deal Viciedo, simply because KW wants to prove to the rest of the GM's how right he was on both Ramirez (paying low) and Viciedo (paying high). Maybe GM egoism shouldn't enter into the equation, but I think it does sometimes with KW. I really feel he believes that Viciedo will end up something like a Miguel Cabrera Lite, or, to go old school in comparisons, one I've heard mentioned pretty frequently is former Cardinal/Dodger Pedro Guerrero. You don't trade away 5 years of a cost-controlled Pedro Guerrero for the 2 month rental of Dunn, especially when payroll limitations mean you have to get contributions from Dayan, Hudson, Beckham, Ramirez, Santos, Flowers, Danks, Mitchell, Sale, etc.

THEN can we can respectively disagree on CF and RF. And I think Konerko's better now than he was before, as well. We just saw Andruw Jones save the game...a play Quentin or Dye never would have made.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 07:50 PM) According to UZR, DER (defensive efficiency ratio), and PADE (park adjusted defensive efficiency), the 2010 defense is not even comparable to the 2005 defense. I'm not talking about the COMPOSITE/ACCUMULATED seasonal stats. I'm talking about the actual White Sox defensive line-up on the field the last couple of nights. That means Omar Vizquel and not Teahen at 3B, the best version we've ever seen of Alexei Ramirez, a confident Gordon Beckham at 2B and Andruw Jones instead of Quentin in RF. That's a very different team than April/May of 2010. We've had two aberrational games (ones with Viciedo and even Vizquel struggling, although we did win the 5 error game) with a total of 9 errors combined, but I'm sure if you look at those other 35/37 games, you'll see a tremendous difference between the two defenses.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 06:44 PM) How do setup men affect save percentage? You either pitch in a save situation or you don't. Jenks has no control over whether they get the ball to him in the 9th with a 3 run lead or less and it wouldn't affect the percentage of times he's successful. Totally disagree with this on a baseball level. How many teams do you honestly think would've handled Jenks differently? Most teams give a closer of his track record a number of opportunities. I would argue that there isn't a single organization that would've pulled the plug on him yet if they were given the exact same personnel. We yanked Shingo early in 2005 when he was clearly struggling... But I am sure the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Mets, Dodgers, Angels, etc., wouldn't give him as much leeway. #1, they have the freedom to "bench" him and go out and acquire another pitcher, and #2, money is not as much of a core issue with his contract as it is with Jenks now on the White Sox. If they had relievers like Thornton, Putz and Santos, they would probably try one of them (especially Putz) before going out in the trade market. Let's face it, Bobby was a pretty great "steal" and value the first 3-4 years of his time here, and now he's simply not much of an asset at all. I don't know if one team in baseball would take him off our hands and give us anything close to a Top 5-6 prospect in their organization. Not without us subsidizing his contract, which will never happen. There's also the theory that an NL team would take the gamble, but I'm sure their scouts are aware of the same issues we all are as White Sox fans.

Perhaps Jorge Cantu makes the most sense as an added bat now, or Xavier Nady. Someone along those lines...who won't cost a fortune to acquire. LaRoche is obviously still in play, too.

I thought it was a 4 year, $10 million contact, with a $4 milllion signing bonus. Have to check Cott's baseball contracts. $4M signing bonus 09:$1M, 10:$1.25M, 11:$1.25M, 12:$2.5M if Viciedo has enough service time to qualify for arbitration after 2011, he may void 2012 season (if voided, club may exercise option at $3.5M) award bonuses: $15,000 for Silver Slugger; $25,000 each for Gold Glove, All Star start ($15,000 for All Star selection); $50,000 for TSN All Star; $75,000 for LCS MVP; $0.1M for WS MVP; $0.1M for MVP ($90,000 for 2nd in vote, $80,000 for 3rd, $70,000 for 4th, $60,000 for 5th) So we've sunk $6.25 million into him already...and only have to pay him $3.75 million over the next two seasons and then arbitration for two years, like Alexei. So he'll be VERY cheap for 2011, and still quite affordable for at least two years after that. I'm not sure, but perhaps since he didn't play on the big league roster in 09, we would theoretically have him for 3 more years after this? Four? He certainly won't reach that service time for 2009-10 to get him arbitration after next year. My understanding with Alexei is that we'll still control his rights in 2012 and 2013, he'll just be a bit more expensive (arbitration/year to year contracts, or signed to an extension, like that Teahen deal).

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 09:50 AM) That 05 left side of the infield was unstoppable. The outfield was great with Rowand in center, Pods in left, and a still alright Jermaine Dye in right. Iguchi and Konerko were more than serviceable on the right side of the infield. Plus, back then, A.J. was actually able to throw some guys out. Pods was really bad (he improved his second time with us) and Rowand was simply overrated...because he dove all over the field and ran into fences, plays that Brian Anderson or Rios routinely make without breaking a sweat. Dye was never a very good defender at any point with us, because his arm was no longer a weapon. He had the reputation of having a very strong arm, but it wasn't close to what he had from around 1996-02 (not unlike Sosa, who had a great but inaccurate arm when he first came to the Sox from the Rangers).

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 09:40 AM) The 05 defense was better. Maybe they (2005 SOX) played better together as a team or unit, but just comparing Pierre/Rios/A. Jones with Pods/Rowand/Dye, it's not even a contest. Ramirez (of the last 6 weeks) and Uribe are a wash (some would give the edge to Alexei because of his superior range almost equal arm), Vizquel and Crede are a wash, Beckham will be better than Iguchi (not yet at turning double plays and the pivot/foot movement) and Konerko's having his best all-around season, offensively and defensively. I'll just put it this way....there's not one player from 2005 that is clearly better (defensively) at any position on the field compared to the 2010 team. Even AJ has been more successful throwing out runners this year compared to years past....although Contreras, Floyd and Jenks were the reason for a number of the steals, to name 3.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 21, 2010 -> 07:15 AM) I really think being able to trust that the 3b next to him will get what he's supposed to get and more means that alexei has been able to completely focus on what he should be doing, not what he should be doing, plus how he needs to over for 3b. I think you mean not what he SHOULDN'T be doing...but the point is that he can relax, feeling quite confident about who is playing to the right and left of him. Plus it doesn't hurt for him to have someone out there next to him he can communicate with fluently. Comfort level or zone is often underestimated, but Omar's steadying presence has obviously had a positive effect, and we can finally bury those arguments about Beckham playing SS.

Well, Iguchi made some great plays, but I guess you could call him solid, if not sometimes spectacular, still I'd take Beckham's overall defensive potential and youth/range over Tad. Konerko's become an even better defender since that time, but he has always had his limitations in terms of range and athletic ability in terms of leaping in the air or being able to improvise and track down wide or high throws. Pods was sort of a mess for much of his early Sox career (by his second coming, he'd actually improved quite a bit in LF), Rowand was very solid but certainly not in Rio's ballpark as a defender and Dye versus Jones in RF, there's not much of a comparison there, either. The way Ramirez is playing, leading the world in TC and range factor and with Vizquel, who has the softest hands in the history of the game perhaps...you're going to be pretty hard-pressed to beat that.

Well, that's kind of the point I was trying to make....that you have to go back 50 years to find a comparable defense. Vizquel and Andruw Jones are not in their primes, but they're not far off defensively and have a cupboardful of Golden Gloves between them...Alex Rios and Alexei Ramirez are playing at nearly a Gold Glove level this season (especially Alexei since the streak started on June 9th), Pierre tracks down everything he can get to (yes, I know his arm is an obvious weakness), Beckham is full of potential defensively and Konerko's above average. In my lifetime, we haven't had a defense that comes close to the one we put out there the last couple of games.

http://detnews.com/article/20100719/OPINIO...0391/1129/rss15 Here's a Detroit writer who wants to sell off at the deadline instead of adding talent to the Tiggers.

I think they really should study this issue closely. There's a combination of players in Quentin, Viciedo and Teahen that could either play RF, 1B or DH. Psychologically, we have the perception that Quentin needs to play everyday, and yet he's battled the most injuries and the less time he's out in the field, the lesser the chance that he's injured. Viciedo is too young to DH until he proves he can't play either 1B or RF. My assumption is that Viciedo and Teahen would be fairly similar defensively, maybe a notch or two above Quentin (mostly because of their arms), but nothing great. Going forward, having a real RFer and DHing either Viciedo or Quentin has to be the move. Flowers has to stay at catcher or be traded to do much good for us. With Vizquel, you just don't know how long he can last...but you certainly can't bench him in favor of Teahen, and Ozzie would never do that at this point, after what Omar has meant to the team. The only place Teahen fits is taking Kotsay's DH at-bats, and playing RF/3B/1B occasionally.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 20, 2010 -> 10:25 PM) Aramis Ramirez to the Tigers is a scary thought It just became a little bit more expensive one for the Tigers. With all their contracts coming off the books, they have at least $20 million to play with, but sinking a lot of it into Ramirez...I think their biggest weakness still is starting pitching after Verlander. What has to happen again for Ordonez to come back in 2011? I'm pretty sure they shed the contracts of Bonderman, Inge, Damon, Laird, Guillen...although Inge is like Joe Crede there, they might make a play to bring him back, but he's not cheap at $6.6 million, it's a lot like our decision with AJ I suppose.

With Vizquel at 3B, Ramirez at SS, you have two very very good defenders on the LH side of the diamond, playing at nearly Gold Glove level together the last 6 weeks. Beckham and Konerko are both above average, with Gordon only showing the potential to get better at 2B. Then with Pierre, Rios and Andruw Jones, the best defensive outfield we've had. The only obvious weakness is AJ, but he makes up for it with pitching-calling, strategy, "gamesmanship" and leadership qualities. Of course, it won't last, Quentin will probably end up playing more in RF with Teahen taking Kotsay's DH role against RHP, but there's no reason not to give Jones more time in the OF as long as we keep winning and he remains dangerous offensively. Essentially, we've become the Mariners of 2009, with a better bullpen, good speed/athleticism and 25% more offensively talent. It's not a coincidence that Teahen going out of the line-up and Vizquel coming in has changed the complexion of this team...Omar has become something like a mixture of Ozuna and Uribe, injecting an atmosphere of defensive excellence that has permeated itself throughout the entire team. That's why KW must be hesitating to mix with the chemistry, it didn't work in 2009...and this team has become known for it's pitching, defense and versatility. Plus we really need Viciedo and Hudson going forward in order to compete in 2012. If it were possible, I would actually try to convert Quentin into a 1B, DH Viciedo and find an outfielder similar to Franklin Gutierrez.

"I'm very mindful of how this team has banded together and overcome a mountain of hurdles to get to where they want to get right now," Williams said. "So I think you have to be very cognizant of doing something that isn't, like I said, exponentially better and making sure it's not disruptive at the same time." On the rise: Left-hander Chris Sale, the Sox's first-round pick in the June draft, is under serious consideration for a promotion after making the jump from Class A to Triple-A Charlotte last Wednesday chicagotribune.com/sports

The Tigers are going to look at Miguel Tejada, Peralta, Wigginton, Alberto Callaspo, Jose Lopez....but their first options are Sizemore (900+ OPS in the minors) and moving Carlos Guillen back to that position, although who would be worse between Guillen and Josh Fields would be a question up for lots of discussion. They might also try D. Kelly there as well. I think two of the most intriguing infield names that might move are Uggla and Cantu.

Viciedo's ceiling might be closer to Miguel Cabrera, for all we know, without as high an OBP. Yes, I just compared him to the second best hitter in MLB, but every scout loves his swing and hitting ability...this wasn't a question where there was doubt (like with Alexei Ramirez coming out of Cuba), at least half the clubs were interested in him. I don't think there's any logic to paying Dunn $60 million over 4 years to stay, and there's even less logic to the White Sox being able to get develop someone to that level before, say, 2014-15. If they would have played Viciedo everyday as the DH for the last ten days, they'd have a much better idea if they have to make a trade or not. The fact of the matter is that Dunn would have to adjust to a new league, a new position or situation, it's very rare that someone changes leagues in the middle of the season and just lights the world on fire, especially moving from the NL to the stronger AL. If we're trying to get away from Dunn (Thome) types, why would we want to bring in Dunn? That would be like admitting we made a mistake not just re-upping Farmer Jim. With the price tag being as high as it is, I don't see any way KW pulls the trigger. He knows the future with Peavy/Mitchell/Sale/Hudson/Viciedo/Flowers could be even brighter than what we're putting out on the field right now.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 20, 2010 -> 01:31 AM) I'd move him just to show the Sox aren't afraid to make changes. s***, standing completely pat is not a good idea the rest of the way. KW tinkered a lot going into 2006, and what did it get him?

QUOTE (BFirebird @ Jul 20, 2010 -> 12:11 AM) King Felix will be tough on Wednesday...but good win tonight for sure. As will Brian Anderson...when we activate him and DFA Kotsay.

Santos Rodriguez would be a nice piece to a lot of teams, any left throwing in the mid 90's will get some takers....that we would be offered as the fallback if KW wouldn't include the other (Sergio) Santos. Gartrell is basically filler, though.

The Royals have made some other interesting decisions since Glass took over the club, most notably the huge contract for Meche, which was a smart move for awhile, the contract notably for Jose Guillen and then Rick Ankiel. They keep getting "stuck" between trying to compete and going all out with the rebuild and do neither well. Another example of veterans who have flopped, Farnsworth and Juan Cruz. In the end, with the Royals, it has always come down to pitching. If they trade Bannister because they don't want to pay him, that would be another step backwards. Jorge De La Rosa, yet another pitcher they gave up on too quickly. But like Joe Borchard with us, the failure (so far) of Alex Gordon has been the biggest set-back for this franchise. Hochevar has moments of brilliance and moments where he looks like a White Sox 5th starter candidate.

The problem here is that the Royals are going to ask for Beckham for DeJesus. And that will be the end of the conversation. And there's no way we have the pieces for both of those guys, let alone one.

Not to mention the fact that Gordon Beckham looks to be back. But I'm still not ready to trade away Viciedo or Hudson...we should just ride with what we have and let's just see what happens.

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Jul 18, 2010 -> 03:26 PM) 3 horrible losses in a row to a division rival in a playoff hunt. It's going to go worse. Horrible losses? What are you talking about? At least we came back Friday night and made it a game, the Tigers just lost four in a row to Cleveland. It sucks, but that's what happens in a long baseball season. After Thursday, the White Sox had made up 14 games in a little over a month against the Twins. Even without Morneau, the Twins are not as bad as they were playing, and they still have a ton of pitching question marks. However, we really did manage to bring them back to life when we could have knocked them 5 1/2 back or more.