caulfield12

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 12:48 PM) It's hard for me to classify that as the Sox winning it as opposed to the Twins losing it. The Sox lost 2 of 3 against the Indians at home. All the Twins had to do to clinch the division was beat KC in 2 out of 3 in the Dome when they had all the momentum in the world. Instead, it seems as though they celebrated their division title early, and they choked. It's like the only time in the last 9 years when I can think of the Twins choking down the stretch. Game 163 was still sweet as hell. The closest is the 2001 team, and that squad was competing for the very first time and suffered through numerous second half injuries. Nobody expected them to beat the Indians, as that was their first appearance at the top of the division in almost a decade. About the only thing you can say is that it would suck even worse to be a Tigers' fan, because they were chased down twice by the Twins from behind in the last days, whereas we gave it up in 2006, 2009 and 2010 much earlier from a "fan pain" standpoint. Then they botched the World Series and went into America's worst economic slide.

A lot of times, most of our pitchers are afraid to come inside and knock the opponents (like Young) off the plate. It's like a broken record, but Farmer mentions the reluctance of our pitchers to go inside almost every single game. Maybe the Tom Emanski/Fred McGriff Baseball Fundamentals got switched with the Sean Tracey/Jon Garland one for our minor league instructional video on pitching.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 12:56 PM) The thing that seperates Sale from our other top pitching prospects that Kenny has traded away is that Sale is a pure power arm. McCarthy and Huddy weren't the flame throwers that Kenny always has had an infatuation with. Sale will be a member of the White Sox for a while. I thought Nick Masset, Mike MacDougal, Sisco and Aardsma were all "power" arms, too. (I know, I know...Coop likes this kid, his make-up, his varied repertoire of pitches, etc.)

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 11:09 AM) AJP was 3 for 6 so far this season vs. Liriano You do realize that Jermaine Dye might have been the worst player in the majors last August/Sept. and yet Ozzie started him 45 games the last two months of the year? Ozzie will do whatever he wants to do. I think against Baker, maybe Teahen had really really good stats (could be wrong) and Kotsay was in the starting line-up despite rather pedestrian ones. Ozzie's greatest strength is also his weakness. He was loyal to JD, even after the trade for Rios, and that's one of the reasons they let him go...JD is either not playing or an everyday player, simple. Basically the same as Thome in Ozzie's mind.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 11:09 AM) AJP was 3 for 6 so far this season vs. Liriano You do realize that Jermaine Dye might have been the worst player in the majors last August/Sept. and yet Ozzie started him 45 games the last two months of the year? Ozzie will do whatever he wants to do. I think against Baker, maybe Teahen had really really good stats (could be wrong) and Kotsay was in the starting line-up despite rather pedestrian ones. Ozzie's greatest strength is also his weakness. He was loyal to JD, even after the trade for Rios, and that's one of the reasons they let him go...JD is either not playing or an everyday player, simple. Basically the same as Thome in Ozzie's mind.

As long as he was limited to the neighborhood of 325-375 at-bats, I think he would have been fine. The rest of them would have gone to Jones, Quentin and resting some of the everyday players. It doesn't matter, we'll never know, will we. It will be argued over and over again this offseason...and you're right, Ozzie being Ozzie, he probably would have felt obligated to play Thome almost every day and would have worn him down eventually. Just saw this from Buster Olney: QUOTE "The bottom line: The White Sox made a decision last winter based on logic, based on numbers, based on the recent injury history for Carlos Quentin. And it just hasn't worked out, just as every team makes decisions that don't work out." LOL. My mouth would drop if I heard Ozzie articulate that argument instead of "Fuc- You" Sox fans! Actually, after the 2005 season, if you think of everything that had to go right...well, the White Sox took a chance with ... Dustin Hermanson, Cliff Politte, Bobby Jenks, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Carl Everett, Scott Podsednik, El Duque and AJ Pierzynski ... and every move ended up working out perfectly, almost.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 10:29 AM) As noted, I do not think we make any more stupid plays than any other team. I thought last night the Twins did as many stupid things as the Sox. The #1a issue for me is the lineups. Ozzie Guillen consistently fields a lineup that gives him a lesser chance to win than he should. Putting AJ in that lineup last night was inexcusable. Do you realize he has 27 TOTAL home runs in his career vs. Left handed pitching? This year he's hitting .211 vs. left. And you put him up against one of the best left handers in the league? He has a .654 career OPS vs. left. Where is the logic? He cannot help you. Obviously we all know about Ozzie's undying love for Kotsay, which has been constantly predicated on him being left-handed and breaking up a series of rightys. If the right/left matchups are so f***ing important, Ozzie, why do you choose to ignore things like batting splits when filling out the lineup card? This has been something that has just killed us all year. The #1b issue for me is that we are almost exclusively a fastball-hitting club. Almost no one on our club hits offspeed pitches well, particularly Ramirez and Konerko. Every key out pitch recently seems like a change or slider out of the zone that badly fools one of our hitters. Ozzie doesn't know how to sit players like Kotsay and AJ, yet, remarkably...he knew how to show Dye and Thome the door. What's the main argument for not playing Castro, who obviously hits better against lefties? That AJ DESERVES a chance to play against his former team, and that you should never "bench" starters in key games? That AJ's motivation against the Twins will offset his year-long struggles with lefties? Same thing with Kotsay, how can you NOT PH Andruw Jones at that point in the game when there's the greatest chance to strike a huge, early blow against the Twins? Sure, Jones might also strike out, but the odds have to be exponentially higher of Jones hitting the ball hard and into play for at least a double than Kotsay driving the ball against a lefty.

Well, if there's anyone who can do it, it's Buehrle. Yes, he's had some absolute horrible outings in the past in the Metrodome, but everyone in that clubhouse understands the importance of this game in the bigger picture. A win means we're definitely part of the race, a loss is like a knockout blow...part of me wishes the game would just get rained out, but it would put off the inevitable, we HAVE TO go in there and take a game, maybe that will be enough to get the club to relax again after all the bullpen collapses. I really thought that Danks and Floyd were going to come through when we needed them, and their performances the last couple of times out have been one of the biggest disappointments to me this season. Putz and Thornton are tired, Gavin and Danks have less of an "out" in my opinion for their failures to man up and put the collective team on their back.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 10:00 AM) The comment was made that we need to beat the Twins more than 4 times in 25 games and I agree. But maybe the next four games will be the Sox turn to win? I ain't givin in to no stinkin Twins and neither should you. It ain't ovah till it's ovan someone once said and that's not till the end of the season or the math just don't add up anymore I'm not asking for them to trade Konerko and Buehrle. Maybe I should have said I have prepared myself psychologically and emotionally the last 10 days for not going to the playoffs. As Fathom said, my anger at the White Sox this week is at a 4-5-6 level compared to the 8-9-10 it was in 2005 and 2008 at the end of those seasons. I'm HOPING we can win, but certainly not expecting it. I'll still listen to the games and be more excited about 2011 (even though we probably won't make any major moves this offseason) than I was about the 2008 season, and that turned out to be a very pleasant surprise.

Since1956, Do you realize how many people who have lost loved ones in plane crashes? Probably some of the people on this board. I joined this website to talk about my favorite team in the world, not to be around people who actually wished death on others. It's bad enough to "wish" players on teams get injured, but really? We're talking about life and death over baseball?

Let me ask you this, since56: I challenge you to watch and listen to every game for the rest of the season, because I will be doing that. Will you? Or will you just quietly disappear into the woodwork and come back at a more convenient time? Let's all fight with each other about who is a better fan, okay? Have you ever come up with any answers? Kenny Williams quit on the fans when he didn't make any moves before this season started...when he agreed with Ozzie to go with Kotsay/Jones over Thome/Jones as the DH and didn't shore up the offense at the trade deadline. He obviously felt this team wasn't properly positioned or he would have done a lot more than adding Edwin Jackson...who you can argue was just as much about solidifying the 2011 starting rotation as us making the playoffs this year. But I'll make a bet with you (you can name the price) that the White Sox make the playoffs over the Twins. I'll even let you assign the odds. So, how about it?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 07:48 AM) There's a lot in your post, but thought I could comment on these 4 problems. 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, I agree 100%. Everyone acts like the Sox just don't think they can beat the Twins, and this mental block makes them lose all the time. I don't think its that. How about the fact that the Twins are just a better team/organization and are more talented? The same reason the Twins can't beat the Yankees, they are just a better team. 2) we have no Joe Nathan That hasn't stopped them this year. Matt Capps has looked pretty awful, and Jon Rauch is just another bullpen guy. Look at how good the lockdown closers not named Rivera were in last years playoffs. Jenks has struggled, but the rest of our top relievers have been solid, although they chose to have a bad week at the worst possible time. 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) Our team is based on pitching, and the fact is our starting pitching has been awful vs. the Twins. Gavin has s*** the bed twice. Danks has one shutdown game, but gave up a 4-run & a 6-run inning in the last two starts @ MIN (granted, Sox won one of those games, but thats not the point). If you can't depend on those two to pitch well, then the Sox are going nowhere. In 3 of these past 4 losses to MIN, the Sox have scored 6 runs. You have to win those games. 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan. When you take a chance on a pitcher who makes $17-18 million and you aren't the Yankees, you really need him to perform/stay healthy or he will put you in a big hole. I still like the move, Peavy's previous injury was a baserunning fluke, but not having that ace every 5 days is hurting them, and if he isn't 100% next year, he will burn a huge hole in that payroll. When I was referring to Joe Nathan, it was more the idea of the Twins having a bullpen that just wouldn't let you beat them from the 7th inning on. If you went back and looked at 2002-2004, 2006, 2009, I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a few seasons in there where the Twins didn't lose 5-6 games that they were leading going into the 7th. When they had Hawkins, JC Romero, Rincon (later) and Guardado...then replaced by Joe Nathan, very very few teams ever touched those guys, you knew you had to win the game before the last one-third of it began or you were basically doomed. What Jenks did after the ASB was puncture that idea that our bullpen was unbeatable and arguably the best in the AL...to the point where it's so unsettled now that two VERY inexperienced rookies in Sale and Santos might be the two best options, along with Thornton (when he's not overused).

I'll try to take that as a compliment. Actually, since I'm in Thailand, when the White Sox have been losing all these games, I have nothing to do at 10 or 11 am but think about them...because I can't watch tv or read a book, it's either watch BBC (one of the few channels in English where I'm staying) replay the same headline stories every 10 minutes or go crazy thinking about the White Sox. Of course, the other English channel (ESPN Asia) plays every single New York Yankees game and nothing else, so I have to watch that jack--- Nick Swisher every day and be reminded of one of the major reasons we're going to be missing the playoffs again. I hope I never retire or have another two month vacation again with nothing very much to do...it sucks. Especially after I just had two jobs in China, and I will thankfully going back to them in 2 weeks. The one thing I do look forward to is going to see Tibet and Mount Everest in October, there's that at least. And I do know I'm fortunate to have a job, more than a few posters here seem like they're going through difficult times, and the baseball season gives us all a chance to follow and share something we feel passionately about. I still can't believe Minnesota has the biggest lead they've had all season in the division after we were tied with them one week ago.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 19, 2010 -> 05:28 AM) An ode to the Twins, by Poet Smurf... If we would beat the Twins more than FOUR times every 25 times they play in the second half, I wouldn't have to write about them. I really would prefer to think Ozzie, KW and JR were getting together, saying this is completely unacceptable, and coming up with a better plan than the one we have now. If we played the Twins over and over again (after July 15th) we'd win 26 games and lose 136. Then you would really feel like all the Twins posts were Groundhog Day-esque. Supposedly we've been studying the Twins and trying to emulate their ways since 2002-2004, why are we going backwards off a cliff? Where are the results?

It's too late for this season, unfortunately. KW really has to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror and see if he still has the burning fire and energy left to do his job effectively. Ozzie does, too. One of the observations from this series is that "the White Sox beat themselves," or, "if you wait around long enough, they'll make a mistake." This particular comment has come from both the Minnesota t.v. and radio broadcasters (I think the direct quote was "that's a stupid play by Ramirez" to throw home) alike. How often do we say that about other teams? Not very often, right? Or is it simply that we're harder on the Sox because we watch them all the time? The problem and resulting question, of course, is how do you teach players not to make stupid plays? If Ozzie's going to stay around, I really wish that JR would make him bring in some new coaches (of course, I might as well believe it will rain frogs like the end of Magnolia while I'm at it). And I'm not sure any of us have seen solid reasons or tangible evidence to believe that Buddy Bell has turned around our minor league system...or, if he is, it's basically like turning the Titanic around in mid-ocean and we're missing the progress. Drafting philosophy? Perhaps that's changing a bit...but coaching/instructionally? Here's the main difference between the Twins and White Sox. If you look around the diamond, all of their everyday players except for Hudson and Young spent time growing up/maturing/developing in the Twins' system. Many of them came up together, they won together, advanced level by level...grew to trust each other and believe in each other (Koskie, Mientkiewicz, AJ, Rivas, Guzman, Hunter, Jacque Jones, etc.) What do we have? We have a rag-tag collection of talented players from all over the place, but they can't play with cohesion and sustain it. One simple example, there was a flyball that fell in the outfield that Rios or Pierre could have caught...but they don't trust each other, so as they were in the same line, both thought the other would get it, no communication or leadership from Rios, the ball falls in and it leads to some early damage and everyone saying "oh, no, here we go again." Of our everyday position players, none of them came up in our system. How do you instill "the White Sox way" when there's no such organizational philosophy to be translated from the minors to the majors. I guarantee there's a "Twins' way" and it started with the foundation built by Tom Kelly and continues to this day with very few fundamental changes in organizational strategies (just a much bigger budget). Or look at the situation with 3B this year...you have Ramirez playing with yet another person surrounding him to his right that he didn't trust or feel comfortable playing with and it took him until Vizquel was put into the line-up to have 100% confidence he wouldn't have to worry everytime the ball was hit to that side. Another obvious observation: Their pitches consistently got OUR hitters out with offspeed pitches, whereas our pitchers have thrown way too many fastballs (without much life on them in the case of Putz, Thornton and Floyd) and pitched right into the strengths of the Twins. So it might take a change in managerial philosophy, new coaches all around. In all honesty, I wouldn't be uspet at all if Omar Vizquel was the manager next year (once again, something that will never happen). Ozzie's done a very good job, but his act has worn thin, and you can only go the same well so many times motivationally with the same team/group of players. There's something very wrong when you're 4-21 against your main rival in the second half of the season over the last 3 seasons. I would like to keep KW, but I'm very concerned he doesn't have the patience to try to build another great team from inside the organization and be patient for 2-3 years. Something else that's interesting...we have sort of evolved over time into the Twins, and they've become more and more like the mid 00's White Sox teams. The problem is that we still have to play 81 games at USCF. The Twins have adapted and adjusted (they still have the #1 defense) and we have too, except our adjustments were made to prepare us for a National League schedule, unfortunately. We actually have more speed and athleticism, overall, than the Twins, and yet they're a much better ballclub across the board. I don't know how we can expect to play smarter if we keep the same players and coaching staff in place, but that's on JR I guess. If we're really going to be stubborn and try to win with "small ball" in a small park, then we have to get a lockdown closer (like the Twins had in Nathan), and where exactly are we going to get that on the FA market? It seems it will have to come from either Santos or Sale. And the other problem is we might need Sale as a starter in 2012 or sooner. So, to summarize: 1) Stop making so many stupid plays (see coaching staff) 2) Develop players and bring them all up to the majors together, stop trading them 3) Find a lockdown closer 4) Hope and pray that Peavy is 100% next year 5) Hope and pray that Santos, Sale, Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers are all ready to make big contributions next year 6) Hope and pray that the fanbase will be patient if you finally articulate a strategy that can produce a 3-5 year winning team and not just an occasional blip on the radar every 5 or 10 years In my opinion, we're almost as good as those Twins' teams from 2002-2004. The problems are fourfold, 1) the Twins have surpassed us in terms of major league talent, minor league talent and perhaps even in payroll for next year, 2) we have no Joe Nathan, 3) as good as Danks and Floyd can be, they aren't "aces" in the category of Johan Santana that you can count on for big-game performances (one exception, Game 163) and 4) Jake Peavy, if he's not healthy, there's really no way to come up with anything resembling a solid backup or fallback plan. Finally, I'm tired of these "Camp Coras" and lip service in spring training and occasionally during the season to fundamentals...if we're not going to be able to pound teams into submission, we have to do the little things right, and do them consistently and not suddenly and conveniently forget they exist once the season starts. As much as Ozzie can be a poor in-game manager, one of his biggest weaknesses is talking or stressing something, saying the right things, then one or two days later it's like we never said anything at all, whether it's about Bobby Jenks or bunting, you have to follow through with those types of organizational decisions or the players will start to tune them all out and just shrug their shoulders and say "that's Ozzie being Ozzie." I've already come to terms with losing AJ and Konerko. In the next 12-18 months, we'll go through the same thing with Thornton (he's the best trading chip and Sale makes him a bit less needed if he can give you some major league ready talent back), Danks and Mark Buehrle. They'll try to extend Jackson if he pitches well, but that won't be easy with Boras. Brooks Boyer might have his work cut out for him marketing the White Sox without Konerko and Buehrle. When he started, he must have thought he was in heaven with the 2005/06 seasons. Now he'll really have to earn his money!

This is where the season turns around.

We're going to come back and win this game. Yay! The Twins are just lucky...some good breaks. We're just beating ourselves but we can figure it out.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 08:39 PM) And the negative crybaby woe is me let's predict the next awful thing that the Twins will do to us attitude adds a lot as well. Yes, because nobody else around here has said anything critical. I'm probably the only one, have you noticed anyone else? I mean seriously...

QUOTE (bobryansson @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 08:32 PM) Yes. You can leave, too. Go ahead, be my guest. Because it makes being a White Sox fan so much fun when everyone is fighting with each other everyday. But, if it makes you feel better, I'll take pesonal responsibility for the White Sox losing to the Twins. Better?

Gee, maybe if you win the Superfan Award of the Year, that will get the White Sox into the playoffs and magically reverse our 4-10 record against the Twins this year. You really showed me...that hurts.

If the fans go home, the White Sox won't come back because their feelings will be hurt and they can't survive without the support of the fans. Don't go!!! If you leave now, it will cost us the division!

Well, I don't or won't even get upset anymore. What's the point? If Ozzie wants to keep insulting my intelligence, I'm not going to be emotionally invested in this team.

QUOTE (The Critic @ Aug 18, 2010 -> 04:12 AM) Maybe if this second-half fade didn't happen every goddamned year I'd be more optimistic. Maybe if the Sox didn't seem to fold up like origami against the Twins every year I'd be more optimistic. Maybe if the Sox weren't a .500 team against the American League this season I'd be more optimistic. I was pessimistic (although surprised they were winning like that) during the magical 25-5 run because I saw how many bad teams the Sox were beating during that stretch. Tigers, Cubs twice, Pirates, Nationals, Royals twice. Yes, they also beat some good teams during that run, but 15 of those 25 wins came against the teams I listed. Maybe I'm a horrible negative fan, but I don't see a championship team on the South Side this year at all. I'll happily eat those words if they somehow win it, but I really don't see it happening. WAIT TIL NEXT YEAR, as one team's super-optimistic awesome fanbase always says! The head to head records (4-9 against Minnesota, 4-8 against CLE, barely above .500 versus KC) in the ALCD are evidence enough. At the height of our streak, we really wiped out the Braves, and I thought it was going to be possible to pull it off...but that series after the break up there in Minnesota where we lost 3/4 and coughed up most of the division lead from the ASB, then the blown game in Seattle when we'd put a nice rally together and manufactured a run, that was the beginning of the end. We've gone through four more bullpen implosions in the span of little more than a week. Very few teams can survive that in August, unless they have a lead like the Sox did in 2000 and 2005.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 09:41 PM) Games that stick out in Sox-Twins lore for me in no order: 1. Jose Paniagua (we actually won that though) 2. Jamie Burke getting laid out 3. Game 163 4. Last Thursday 5. Tonight I vividly remember a game that Denny Hocking won with a walk off homer against Keith Foulke in the Metrodome. There was the one that Torii Hunter robbed a Carlos Lee homer. The one that Buehrle gave up about 7-8 runs in the first inning and I'm pretty sure we came back to win that one...must have been in 2005/06. Jeff Abbott with the game-winning hit to clinch the pennant in 2000. The Jenks/Carlos Gomez game from 2008 that looked like the nail in the coffin for the 2008 season. The Jenks blown save the Sunday after the All-Star break was even more of a blow to our chances than blowing so many opportunities against Liriano last week. That two game swing would have had the Twins at 3 1/2, but 1 1/2 and three straight brought them too close and they smelled blood in the water.

QUOTE (Jeremy @ Aug 17, 2010 -> 10:17 PM) Yikes, these Jackson over Hudson arguments are embarrassing: Yeah, the same weak league where our new ace Jackson posted an ERA over 5 this season? Arizona has an extreme hitters park and a porous defense, it's not so easy to pitch for that squad. Also, if we're going to discuss the difficulty of the hitters a pitcher is facing, shouldn't we be mentioning that Jackson has pitched exclusively against 28th and 21st best offenses in the majors since joining the Sox? This argument pretty much only works if you evaluate the entire trade based solely on the three (really, two of the three) starts Hudson had for the Sox this season and nothing else either he or Jackson has done in their careers. Is anyone serious willing to defend this approach to evaluating trades and or players? Of course we should consider players' performances prior to a trade - a few weeks is way to soon to judge a trade - but you can't do that by cherry picking a tiny sample size that supports your argument. You also have to look at Hudson's stellar minor league numbers and the fact that Jackson has only had one above average major league season. I don't see a lot of players signed at a relatively low cost. We have the 7th highest payroll in baseball, despite gaping holes at multiple positions, because we are paying large salaries to a number of players. The many trades Kenny has made where he ships off prospects making the minimum for well paid vets is a big reason for this. I'm not sure which teams have had success constantly dealing cheap young players for pricey veterans, with the possible exceptions of those with much larger spending power such as the Red Sox and the Yankees. Of those teams, even the Red Sox have placed an emphasis on promoting their draft picks to the big league club with Buchholz, Paplebon, Bard, Ellsbury, Lester, and Pedroia all drafted by Boston since 2002. The only White Sox draft pick from that time period that's contributing in the majors is Beckham. The only example of a really high priced player coming in from the outside, there are basically two, Rios and Peavy. If you look at the other big/ger contracts, like Jenks, Konerko, Buehrle and AJ, they don't really fit that example. Now you can add Pierre, Linebrink and Teahen (all players who could/should have been replaced by a good farm system) and that starts to show some of the roots of the problem. We also have Quentin, Ramirez, Sale, Santos and Viciedo that are bringing some younger players into the mix.