caulfield12

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ May 19, 2009 -> 03:53 PM) This is comical post. First off, why do we need to sign 2 "front-line starters"? Danks, MB and Floyd are being counted on to anchor our rotation for the next few years. Secondly, sine you do feel we need "front-line starters" (your words), I guess you're insinuating Bobby Jenks would be one, since that was who my comment was about. And if you are, that's just laughable. Danks has had 7 starts this year. S E V E N. In 4 of those starts, he has allowed 0 or 1 runs. In the other 3 he has been bad. Yet, you are already comparing him to John Danks version 2007. WOW. Then, despite Floyd's success last year, his pure stuff and what we know his potential is, you are already penciling him in as a serviceable number 5 starter if we're lucky. WOW. Then, you mention yourself that 1-2 starters don't grow on trees, but you ask me where we are going to be finding TWO of them before next year. Really? Really? I'm waiting to hear where we're going to find two pitchers for 2010. Since even Cliff Lee had three really "average" seasons in his career...and at least half the posters here believe Poreda's ultimate destination is the bullpen. Can we be certain that Danks is a #1/2 starter based on one season and the Blackout Game? No more than we can assume the Quentin will be in the Top 10 in the MVP voting or that Alexei Ramirez will hit 20 homers over the remainder of the season. Even if that did happen, it wouldn't necessarily prove anything if they were so far out of the race that all those statistics were put up in stress-free games. I'm just trying to think outside of the box. I'm sure KW would be welcome to hear any ideas you have...and I said it wouldn't happen anyway, because he's already four years into his contract. I bet nobody here thought they'd see Scott Podsednik in RF, Jayson Nix in CF/LF/RF, SS and 3B (when he had no very little experience in the minors at any of those positions)...Brent Lillibridge in CF, etc. It's not as if I said Dayan Viciedo should go back to pitching.... As far as Gavin Floyd goes, there's been hundreds of pitchers who had his stuff that didn't even make it to the major leagues. Pitching is 90% mental, as referenced by the example of Kip Wells in one of these threads. We read for weeks and weeks how his peripherals and BABIP were "lucky" and how his success last year wasn't sustainable. Just like we heard how it would be crazy to go after Edwin Jackson because he would always be an example of hype over performance (like Bonderman). But Gavin Floyd being counted on as a reliable #3 starter for 2010? Really?

QUOTE (Molto @ May 19, 2009 -> 03:45 PM) Didn't care for Gonzalez, can't say I've ever seen De Los Santos, so I'd be lying if I say I did. I saw Poreda pitch on TV. Can't think of anyone in our system (at least by name) that I was fine with. I think it's easier to get a feeling for a pitcher rather than a hitter. You can watch a hitter bat an entire game and a good game could very well hide some flaws. But pitching, at least for me, is easier to pick apart in a smaller sample. And you had the same impressions about Brandon McCarthy's erratic/herky-jerky delivery in 2003-2005 I'm assuming? As far as Liriano, I'm not sure it's so much his delivery as it is the torque from the slider, which he's stopped throwing so much...with pretty pedestrian results over the last two years. I guess they kind of go together. Danks or Johan Santana or Buehrle look a lot more natural on their changeups than Liriano or Poreda, that's for sure. It's also going to be the single biggest indicator whether Clayton Richard can go from merely a FB pitcher to a 2 or 3 pitch repertoire pitcher on a consistent basis as a starter.

QUOTE (Molto @ May 19, 2009 -> 03:32 PM) I've watched him a few times, which is enough for me to gauge a pitchers delivery. Not having a secondary pitch doesn't help, of course. Did you also have the same feeling about Gio Gonzalez or Faustino DeLosSantos? Second, what pitcher have you seen in our system that you DO like their mechanics/delivery? Have you seen any of the Kannapolis starters in person or on t.v.?

QUOTE (Molto @ May 19, 2009 -> 03:30 PM) I'm not sure why you are talking about Wells, unless you are comparing him to Beckham. I don't think much of Poreda, therefore I don't think he'll do much at the major league level, so I'd rather that become a fact sooner rather than later. Unless he's future trade bait. Then keeping him down. Nope, comparing Poreda to Wells, although I think the expectations for Kip were even higher, especially at that time period where even the likes of Snyder and Parque looked really good compared to 1998. I guess your thinking is that he is a sure-fire bust...well, only KW knows if that's the consensus viewpoint of the rest of the organization, but we certainly have to find another GM that believes the opposite of you with just as much conviction. With everything being so modernized, I'm sure they have diagnostic computerized simulation programs that can determine exactly the torque on the elbow and shoulder that any given motion produces. One would think they could smooth or straighten out his mechanics and maintain his velocity, unless that velocity resulted from performance-enhancing drugs, which we have no reason to believe.

QUOTE (Molto @ May 19, 2009 -> 03:01 PM) Not sure I understand your first part. I don't much care for Poreda. He'll be a reliever at best, and that's assuming he doesn't lose 5mph in the next two years, which I suspect he will. So I'd rather him come up and show he can't do it sooner rather than later, so there is time to look for other options. As for Beckham, I'm talking mentally. He appears mature enough that he'll be able to handle coming up sooner, but there is no point to it. Kip Wells came up and pitched "well" under no pressure and then quickly collapsed when expectations were placed on him in 2000. We've had pitchers like Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins and Nick Masset lose 5 MPH before they ever made it to Chicago based on false hype, but Poreda has a legit fastball for now. Are you saying that because you think his delivery is not as repeatable or as smooth as Matt Thornton's? Conjecture? Simply the fact that the White Sox pitchers with the least hype (Buehrle and Fogg) ended up having much better results than many "top" prospects? The whole reason for him to fail is because of his secondary pitches at this moment in time? Just curious how many times you have watched him.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 19, 2009 -> 03:02 PM) Why the heck do they need two front of the rotation starters? Danks and Floyd are the guys, like it or not, the Sox have to hope they pan out cause if not, than the whole rotation is a mess. Buehrle fits as well, so your talking about 2 spots and no, moving Jenks or Thornton isn't an option. Jenks makes way too much and all your doing is risking him losing his value or getting hurt and Thornton doesn't have the skill-set to start. Find one starter via FA, hope you can acquire another starter and than slowly get Hudson added to the mix, but the reality is you don't sit around and wait casue the Sox don't have any starting pitching prospect that you can just pencil into the rotation for the next 5 years. Assuming Danks is as good as he was last year, or almost, that's workable. Maybe he's just going through the same type of inconsistency that Cliff Lee did...I don't know. I'm not sure if I were the White Sox I would pencil in at 2.75 - 3.25 ERA for the rest of the season, either. The whole finding a starter through FA thing hasn't happened in Chicago for 8 years now. It all depends on how dire the situation gets, and perhaps a little bit the Cubs, too (if they won the World Series). Maybe the media will get tired of the Sox "White Flag" history and the Blackhawks can also take some of the focus away for now. Even the most optimistic front office member is already cringing thinking of marketing this team to season ticket holders without 1-2 serious additions to the team for next season. Personally, I would hate if KW did something dramatic (like Albert Belle) just to raise attendance but with no rhyme or reason about fitting this into the long-term plans, but he's kind of between a rock and a hard place. If we were in the AL East, it would be a lot more cut-and-dried and perhaps the fans would be more understanding as well. But it's hard to get much sympathy for the product on the field when ticket prices were already increased 11%.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ May 19, 2009 -> 12:02 PM) Um he also has a history of injuries when he used to start, he has a metal rod in his elbow, he has established himself as an upper-echelon closer....so ya, it would be asinine to try and make him a starter again at this point in his career. The fact that we are think on close to ML ready starting pitchers in the minors, should not be a reason to be making ridiculous decisions like that. Would love to hear your ideas about where we're going to get two front-line starters between now and the start of the 2010 season? Contreras and Colon will be gone...Danks is looking (for now) like his late 2007 version before they shut him down and Floyd is abysmal. Let's say Floyd becomes a serviceable 5 starter and Danks a 3 starter and Buehrle doesn't ever show signs of wear and tear or go down with injury for the first time in his career...we still have to find a 1-2 starter and a 4. Richard or Poreda might be the 4. Might. The 4 can be found, but the 1-2 guy that Danks was the second half and Floyd for much of the first half...well, they just don't grow on trees.

QUOTE (Molto @ May 19, 2009 -> 02:26 PM) Even if Beckham is the real deal and ready to play now, and I don't doubt it from the way he looked during spring training, it's too too risky to bring him up now. Make sure that once he comes up, he's up for good. Let him go through some ups and downs at the minor league level before he experiences it on the big stage. With regards to Poreda ... I wouldn't mind him starting, but that's just because I'd rather him struggle now and show he's not a major league starter than next season when there are certain expectations that he'll never live up to. Kip Wells came up and had relative success in 1999 and it put a lot of pressure on him to be the savior of the rotation in 2000...so it goes both ways. Thankfully, we had Sirotka, Baldwin, Eldred, Parque and Garland to fill in the breach, as well as a young Mark Buehrle. Beckham's OPS is around 830. It's not like he has been destroying the ball down there....and, of course, he is just coming back from an abdominal injury. Not to mention the fact that he's had his struggles defensively, just like Viciedo. That Barons team needs to win a championship together and bring their enthusiasm and winning attitude/confidence to the big leagues...instead of being split up and brought to Charlotte or promoted to the Sox. We don't need them to be infected by the current malaise that is Charlotte/Chicago.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 19, 2009 -> 12:07 PM) The bolded really makes no sense. So, you can K a lot, if you hit homers, or play defense, but not if you have a high average or OBP? Simply put, saying he can't be successful going middle and right is ridiculous. If that is what he needs to do to improve his hitting, then add power as time goes on, that is what he should do. Josh is never going to be a high average hitter. Just like Crede, who has a similar profile. If Josh was hitting .280-.300 with a .350 OBP, that would be one thing. But he's not. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/battin...ull&minpa=0 Top 20 in K's in the majors today. The only ones who are close to as low in OBP as Josh are Sizemore, Schafer and BJ Upton. C. Davis, Pena, Mark Reynolds, Howard, Dunn, Sizemore, Fielder, Weeks, Swisher, Thome and Branyan are all noted XB and HR hitters. Jordan Schafer is a rookie who will be sent down soon if he continues to struggle. But still considered a bright prospect. Upton and David Wright have track records, not unlike Kemp and Jhonny Peralta. Corey Hart, same thing. If there's a comparison, it would probably be to LaRoche, but I think he has six homers. And Fred Lewis gives you speed and defense. So, in summary, gladly Josh...hit .280 to .300 with 350 OBP and you can go for the rest of the season without hitting another homer...

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ May 19, 2009 -> 11:31 AM) you don't think they're underachieving? i'm not saying they're going to turn it around and end up above .500 at the end of the year, i'm merely pointing out what would happen if they completely blew it all up and went with all league-minimum players it would be unbearable even compared to what we're currently watching I wouldn't mind watching Poreda, Beckham and Viciedo if I knew they were going to play every game for the rest of the year. That would give me enough of a reason to watch the games. The problem is we need to see what we have in Fields, Getz and Nix first. And Poreda's not ready. And there's no reason to start their arbitration clocks early....entertaining the fans and keeping them engaged probably isn't their first priority now. It has never been KW's. Sometimes I get the impression he wants to piss people off, even though I hope I'm wrong with that assessment. At least he and Ozzie are honest, I'll give them that much. We respect their emotions and sometimes hold it against them when things aren't going well.

QUOTE (SI1020 @ May 19, 2009 -> 11:37 AM) You're right, that pitch was devastating because he could locate it with speed and movement. His drop down motion this year seems to me to be used more often and is more laborious. It's a get me over motion and pitch. He in no way looked like the pitcher he was the last half of 05 and the first half of 06. Which brings me to another point. Other than those two parts of a season when has he resembled a true ace for any decent period of time? He was pretty good the first half of last season until he tried to pitch through nagging injuries and didn't tell Cooper and Ozzie. He pitched well in NY until he started to have so many problems with the Red Sox and it got into his head and started affecting him.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 19, 2009 -> 11:25 AM) I disagree, his drop down 2-seamer in 05-06 was one of his best pitches and he threw it because it was unhittable, not because he wasnt healthy. But there's a huge difference when you are at 95-97 and in the low 90's. Your margin for error on fastballs is razor thin...Jose got away with bad location because they would foul off the pitches when he was the best pitcher in the game that they are now dialing in on. The other thing is that he consistently worked quickly, got ahead in counts and had that equalizing weapon nobody could hit, the forkball. The majority of his pitches were fastballs, but he was punching out batters with the off-speed stuff. Now, they just wait on the fastball, which he throws it 90% of the time from drop down. That's not enough variation. If he threw that slurve/slider 20-30% of the time, to the outside corner of the plate against RH hitters, he'd be much more effective. He comes inside almost every time with the fastball against RH hitters (08/09), but he doesn't ever knock batters off the plate, his velocity isn't a weapon anymore and everyone knows they can wait for a good fastball.

QUOTE (MO2005 @ May 19, 2009 -> 11:18 AM) And again...Everyone is acting like this is a shocker that the Sox are where they are. All offseason a few of us said that this team will suck and not compete. People bashed claiming we are not real Sox fans, but I will say one thing about that. Real fans are realistic. This offseason was garbage! Kenny didn't do jack this offseason except pick up guys he thought were going to come out of the gates hitting and pitching. The problem with that is that they are too inexperienced and YOUNG. We have a selfish ballclub that I have been saying since 2007 needs to be broken up. We have a hitting coach who might as well not have a job if the hitters keep getting the blame. We have a manager who puts out a different lineup everyday and can't stay consistent with one. I mean in all seriousness this thread should be changed to As expected... I think everyone EXPECTED it, about 70-80% of posters on Sox message boards. Now whether they were openly saying KW was making mistakes, some were quiet and waiting for the other shoe to drop. Obviously, most of the media thought they'd be 3rd or 4th...some in last place. Baseball Prospectus called for 72-90, they might be right on the Sox two out of three seasons. Just horribly off last year. Everyone had a sense the 2005 season was about to evaporate in terms of our roster (maybe only Buerhle, Paulie and AJ will survive this year...possibly Jenks)....and most were excited about the infusion of talent from the Birmingham squad. I'll be honest, I enjoy listening to the Barons games a lot more than watching the major league team lose game after game in similarly mind-numbing fashion. Winning is fun, losing sucks and sometimes makes you question why you even passionately follow sports or White Sox baseball, in particular. It would be one thing to watch a young/enthusiastic team that was making youthful mistakes...but this is largely a veteran bunch, and it feels like they're playing out the string and we still have 4 1/2 months to go. No part of our ballclub is alive. At least in CLE, they can hope that their offense can get them back into the race. We don't have any one aspect of this team that's working well right now, not even the bullpen this past series. The only question remaining for everyone is what to do about it...to that, there are no easy answers.

QUOTE (shipps @ May 19, 2009 -> 11:07 AM) Your only reason for making Jenks a starter would be to get him back in shape? Why do you care if he is ripped or not? If he can throw the ball effectively it doesnt matter if he is "in shape". No, I didn't say only reason, I said ONE reason. Another reason is that we don't have anyone at the AA level of above who has his stuff and he also has a history as a starter with the Angels. Poreda is our only minor league starter who's not at least 2-3 seasons away. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Tell me who you would start if Floyd continues to perform like this for the next 6 weeks? It's not going to happen, of course, but starting Thornton or Jenks is more logical than Broadway, Marquez, Van Benschoten, Egbert, etc. If this season goes like it looks like, starting the likes of Omogrosso or Santeliz or the likes of Harrell or Ely makes more sense than using pitchers who aren't a part of the future of this ballclub. This team won't compete again until we produce at least one starter of our own or KW makes a trade like AJ for Nathan, Liriano and Bonser that replenishes the upper levels of the system. Probably they will have to go to Carrasco and move Floyd to the bullpen. They need to do something to shake this thing up. Replacing Walker with Baines isn't going to do it, that's for sure. What would you do if you were KW to fix the starting rotation between now and April, 2010....???

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 19, 2009 -> 10:50 AM) The payroll was going down there anyway. Do you really think after they get rid of Thome, Contreras, Dye, Dotel and have to pay Viciedo $4.3 million less next year, that they are going to sign someone for big money? No way. They will indeed use the economy as an excuse for this year, but all the other teams in town have no problems filling their places when they give the people buying tickets something good to watch. Its like a guy opening a restaurant saying he's going to use old food because he's afraid no one will come to the restaurant. When no one comes, he lets everyone know how he was right. Its total BS. Its the defeatist attitude KW claimed he didn't have. I'll ask you this question. If you were KW going into this past offseason and were told to build for 2010 and that you couldn't add payroll, what would you have done differently? Besides 2001 and 2007, the White Sox have fielded competitive teams. They have one of the better records in baseball since 1990, overall, you know all the statistics just like I do. If anything, last year might have led everyone astray and into thinking we could continue to "reload" on the fly instead of rebuilding. For that to happen, almost everything would have to break right, and it certainly has gone about as much in the wrong direction as possible. When you go into a series HOPING to win one out of four (like when we go to Minnesota or Oakland, too), you're going to play in a manner that ends up in the losses we saw in Game 2 and Game 4. They were 75% beaten before they even took the field those games. I'll ask you a second question...let's say we go 3-3 in the next six games (someone has to win, the Sox OR Twins, I THINK)...what would you do if you were in the poisition of KW and Brooks Boyer to keep fan interest alive for the second half of the season? 1) Lower ticket prices for individual seats? 2) Send a refund to season ticket holders (with a letter explaining that the payroll would have to fall even more next year) 3) More half price nights and promotions to boost attendance during week (maybe drinks specials like Two For Tuesday or Thirsty Thursdays)....half price nights on Mondays or Thursdays, etc. 4) Give a speech saying the hope was to compete this year in a winnable division but we now have to set our sights on 2010? 5) Bring up Beckham, Poreda and Viciedo in June? 6) Write a letter of apology to the season ticket holders and newspapers and admit your mistakes?

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 19, 2009 -> 10:51 AM) But Thornton is much more valuable in the bullpen, you turn him into a closer and if you need to you can spin him for prospects in the future as well because you've just maximized his value. I'm not saying Broadway or McCulloch are long term fixes in the rotation, but someone is going to have to get a shot and this team is bad as is, so its not a big deal if you give one of those guys or someone just a shot in the rotation. Maybe Omogrosso is the guy and if he fails there you slide him to the pen, I don't know. I'm also not stating that we'd be able to get a front line starting pitching prospect, unless of course Jenks is dealt in which case I would expect us getting a high impact arm. Thorton and Poreda are very similar, but Poreda does have very good sink to his fastball which is the only way he'd potentially be able to get away as a good major league starter (since he doesn't have a great repetoire of secondary pitches). Santos Rodriguez is a good arm but still 2-3 years away if he even pans out and Richard is worth a look cause he seems like a potentially valuable piece (4th or 5th starter or a solid reliever in the pen). Looking at it strictly from the perspective of starting pitching, if it were year 2 or 3 of Jenks' career here, I might even consider starting him again (for one reason, to force him to get back into shape). Unfortunately, he only has two more years to go and his salary is determined by his being one of the 10 best closers in baseball. So there's little choice but to wait on Danks and Floyd to get straightened out again. All of the starters in A ball (especially Kannapolis), they're at least 2 years away...and the worst thing would be to try to rush one of them up to the big leagues. Besides Nathan Jones, there's nobody down there who is going to blow anyone away, and Jones would get crushed too, if he had to pitch from behind and throw fastballs over the plate. We have to work backwards and solidify that rotation again...it has to be the priority over the bullpen. A bullpen is a luxury for a non-contending team, one we can't afford if we're going back to the Kids Can Play approach. That's why I wouldn't mind trading Jenks, simply because he's the one piece who can get you back some more quality arms. White Sox history over the last decade has shown you don't need to have expensive closers...in fact, Koch has been the worst. We've used Howry, Foulke, Takatsu and Hermanson, and they all had periods of success....none of them were $5 million plus salaries. Tampa Bay had a no-name bullpen last year, except for Percival. Their two best pitchers were probably Howell and Balfour, two players whose organizations (Minnesota and KC) essentially gave up on them. Same way we ended up with Politte.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 19, 2009 -> 10:47 AM) Matt Garza is the guy that would look really good right now, but your right, Ellsbury would have filled a major need as well. And for those that don't say the Twins make mistake, look at how awful that Delmon Young/Garza swap is looking right now. The end of the season last year for the Sox was amazing, but it was enabled by Bill Smith, too. 1) Not getting anything of value for Santana, the best pitcher in baseball east of Greinke. 2) Letting Garza go and the Bartlett trade continuing the trend of a once incredible infield defense to become below average...Harris is a bad defender, too...just like Young (obviously the Rays prized pitching and defense, and it worked) 3) Signing all of those washed-up/injured veterans like Lamb, Everett, Monroe and Livan Hernandez...and sticking with Hernandez 6-8 starts too long instead of bringing back Liriano 4) Never addressing the RH set-up issues that existed all year with Crain, Bass and Guerrier...and, when making a trade, adding Eddie Guardado instead of someone like LaTroy Hawkins who might have shored up that aspect of the team Everything the Twins did last year was wrong, and the White Sox deserved to win...but I don't think Terry Ryan would have made all of those same mistakes if he were still around.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 19, 2009 -> 09:44 AM) Actually, having him go up the middle and to RF is something he SHOULD be doing. Combine that with a less time-consuming bat load and he'll then be able to catch up to heat better. When he was doing this early in the season, it worked for a bit. We could afford him to be a 10-12 homer guy on the 2000, 2005 or 2006 teams. Not this year, especially if Quentin continues to struggle and/or is injured. Not on a team last in the AL in runs produced and one of the three worst teams in the majors in terms of runs scored and runs allowed. Hitting the ball to the right side, when it's dictated....that's great. Konerko has done it consistently and some are complaining about his lack of power, but I'd rather see Konerko's approach than Carlos'. The fact of the matter is that you can't strike out at his rate unless you're putting up 30-40 homers per year OR playing great defense. Josh is doing neither. It's pretty clear he has a hitch in his swing (just watch all of his hand movement on the replays, especially from the side) and he's not staying on the ball with his eyes until the point of contact, like Nix did with that low curveball yesterday. He's, as Harrelson says, a 54-55 foot hitter who's really gotten "in between," but he lacks Alexei's hand speed...which is why there is more hope for Ramirez to pull out of it than Lillibridge, Fields or Anderson in the long run.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ May 19, 2009 -> 10:18 AM) No reason to trade for Morales anyway. If the Sox took the money they would save in salary dumps and invested it in the farm then that would be great. The problem is, how much will they actually save when they factor in the decrease in walk-up sales, concessions, etc. that comes with dealing off veteran core players? Maybe the Sox can make up the difference Major League-style by filling the walls with chiropractor ads and so forth? This season was almost set up to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. White Sox struggle in a very winnable/average division...end up with 68-76 wins. KW and JR preach the need for being "fiscally responsible" while heading into next season. Attendance numbers of 1.6-2.0 million are also cited as evidence. "We've had one of the top ten payrolls in baseball for four years now and the attendance is only, let's say, 22nd or 23rd in the majors..." This situation is very frustrating. I've been reading whitesoxinteractive a lot the last 2-3 days and they've even started a VERY long "Fire Ozzie Guillen" thread, which makes absolutely no sense at all. Some people are saying we should have hired Gaston instead of Guillen, thinking that might have led to multiple World Series championships instead of quite probably zero. One thing almost nobody can match is Ozzie's passion for the White Sox. And yelling, screaming, knocking over post-game spreads, it's not going to change things for a beaten up team lacking in talent. As much as the idea that the payroll is going to dwindle to $60-70 million seems crazy (since it was $115), it's really the only logical thing to do. We can't easily rebuild on the fly because starting pitching is almost impossible to find from outside the organization. If there's any lesson from the last decade, it should be that the Sox win when they pitch well and have a decent offense (not 2000 or 2006 level, just between 8th and 14th in MLB).

QUOTE (whitesox901 @ May 19, 2009 -> 12:38 AM) well whatever happens, DONT trade Linebrink or Dotel, if we really are serious about 2010, we are going to need a good core in a bullpen to go with Jenks, I know Dotel is a FA after this season, but I say sign him to another 2 seasons Unless you want to trade Matt Thornton, then basically you're advocating keeping the same four key bullpen members. This would make sense if we were a contending team, close to a contending team, or even just one move away (position player/pitcher). But it would be a waste of $20 million (roughly the salaries of all four together) to keep them together on a rebuilding team...it just doesn't make sense. Basically, about 20-35% of the 2010 budget/payroll would be allocated to four members of the bullpen. That won't work, any more than having five starting pitchers making $50+ million was sustainable (in 2006), either. You have to get some of the production from the minors if you want to have a contending team on a $60-80 million team budget.

Josh Fields can't really be defined as a bust until we put him back down at the 6-7-8 spot in the batting order and let him go back to what he was doing in 2007 instead of trying to have a stance like Carlos Quentin or driving the ball to RF like a #2/contact hitter. If he doesn't put up 15 homers and strikes out 150+ times, that's when you can have the conversation again. He could be a similar player to Michael Cuddyer (or Crede, or Rowand), who took a good 2-3 years to really establish himself as a regular at the major league level. His defense has been a little better than many suspected, and his OBP is actually better than Getz...he just needs to go back to what worked for him in spring training and 2007. Easier said than done.

Impossible to judge Griffey because he was very much NOT healthy last year. In fact, he probably won't ever be the same again. You can look at Swisher, but Swisher never used Walker as a hitting coach. Crede, it's hard to say because of his back problems. Cabrera and Ryan Sweeney are both struggling mightily in Oakland. C. Carter and Aaron Cunningham never spent much time with Walker. Jeremy Reed, same thing. Chris Young has had the very same problems in Arizona he had in our minor league system. Rowand had a very good 2004 season...he hasn't been a consistent hitter from season to season...and then it's very difficult to compare numbers put up in the NL versus the AL, or put up on non-contending teams. Miguel Olivo has basically been the same hitter his entire career. He struggled so much in Seattle (after leaving Walker), they basically gave up on him. Joe Borchard never did anything after we traded him for Thornton. Carl Everett's career faded completely in 2006. For instance, Jon Rauch, Kip Wells, Rocky Biddle (as a Montreal closer), Josh Fogg and many others would not have had the same success in Chicago they had elsewhere, for a number of reasons.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ May 18, 2009 -> 09:40 PM) Don't know if I had a typo, but the closer. The reason I asked is because Thornton himself volunteered to go back to starting when we acquired him for Borchard. I know there was one other time when the question was raised. If Thornton failed as a closer, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to give it one last shot to make him a starter. Of course, he's already 31 or 32 and the likelihood of picking up 2nd and 3rd pitches that are consistent and effective at this point are not great. Thornton's fastball is too flat and his slider isn't reliable...but I think the odds of getting something out of Thornton as a starter are still higher than McCulloch or Broadway ever being consistent winners in the rotation. We have Poreda, Richard, Thornton and Santos Rodriguez that are all lefties who can throw 92-98 with marginal offspeed stuff. If just one of those guys could break through and be successful (#3 starter or above), that would be a great help to the rotation. Richard and Colon have both had successful starts this year throwing 85% fastballs. It's just very difficult to do on a consistent basis against good hitting teams, but Clayton has been effective against TB, NY and TOR in his short career, so the ability is there. It's just repeating and building upon that success that is the biggest question mark.

QUOTE (OilCan @ May 18, 2009 -> 11:50 PM) Well, if history has told us anything in the last two years.....if KW couldn't buy a CF, what makes anyone think he could buy any good/great FA? KW seems to overpay middle relievers and unknown quantities based of potential (Ramirez, Viciendo), and is dearly paying for piss-poor drafts before 2008's. He did mortgage the minors for the 2005 trophy...fine. Now fix this, KW. It's been 4 years. And counting... It's too early to judge the Viciedo signing, at least until the middle of the 2010 season. He has picked it up a lot in May, and has been a run-producing machine despite struggling quite a bit. That's the main thing that they're looking at with him, run production (along with strikeouts/pitch selection and where he fits in defensively). Ramirez, if he NEVER does a thing for the White Sox in the rest of his career, was a relative bargain, because he was vastly underpaid last season. His four year contract is pretty close to what we paid Juan Uribe for the 2008 season alone. If they sent him to AAA and he never played again for the White Sox, it would still have been a decent signing because of season he had for us.

QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ May 18, 2009 -> 11:39 PM) I really want a legit leadoff as well, but really? The other problem with trading for Morales is we're back to overloading with 1B/DH types. We still have to find places for Viciedo, Brandon Allen and Tyler Flowers (if he can't catch, they will want his bat in the line-up somewhere). If we want to go in the direction of speed/athleticism, maybe Shelby factors in as well at DH since his defense isn't up to par with Jordan Danks. It all depends on what they would do with the roughly $15-20 million they would save by dealing Konerko. If they invested it in the draft, signing international FA's or the starting rotation, it would be fine. Certainly carving away all the pieces from the 2005 team won't be popular moves. We don't even know how happy Buehrle would be hanging around long-term for 2-3 years of rebuilding, or if he is serious about retiring roughly 2-3 seasons from now.