caulfield12

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 02:29 PM) I don't know why I said Score. I did hear Murph say Miles is a good defender and legitimate leadoff hitter. lol. What a dumbass. Well, I can't see Miles holding up over an entire year at 2B and leading off. He's not a stolen base threat, if he ever was one to begin with. There has to be more behind this move than just Bradley and minor leaguers, although seemingly their LH bat and leadoff problems are 50% solved theoretically. Although Fontenot will perhaps figure more into the equation now as well. I guess one can look at selling DeRosa "high" in the same light as the Sox potentially dealing Dye. And I guess this puts the Josh Barfield Era officially to an end in Cleveland.

Even more ironic is that he used to play for WVU, and Iowa and OSU both were destroyed by Huggins in the last month or so. Iowa's coming around and becoming more competitive on the road. I just don't know if Lickliter can get enough athleticism to win with his system in the Big 10, in terms of recruiting. I think he will fall a little short of Alford's hype as a recruiter, although the program will be better off from an overall standpoint, I just don't see him taking Iowa to the Elite 8 or Sweet 16 on a consistent basis. However, the fact that Iowa's really learning how to play much better D is a good sign, something that didn't really happen under the Golden Boy.

I don't think Guillen's calling out Vazquez or even Swisher had any effect on their trade value. Lots of NL teams (and GM's) still see (for whatever reason) Vazquez as a 1/2 caliber starter. That will always be the case. The other thing you have to take into consideration is he's not exactly cheap. Lowe's being offered $36 million for 3 years by the Red Sox. I'm pretty sure he will get a little bit more than that, but that's right in line with what Dempster and Vazquez make per season, although Javier's deal only goes for two more seasons. If the White Sox agreed to take on some of that salary (unlikely), then they would have received an even better returned, potentially the top 3 names we heard bandied about so often at that time. But, at least for the White Sox, he was nothing close to what Dempster and Lowe would be expected to be for their new teams, which is a 2-3 type.

It reminds me of all the angst over the supposed three player deal for Jon Garland with the Astros that blew up...people read the Internet, blogs, mlbtraderumors, and they're convinced their GM is an idiot because half of what is written there is nonsense. I mean Gilmore gets compared to Ryan Sweeney and is labelled a disappointment simply because he's from Iowa? What? I mean, give the kid a chance to develop, c'mon. I've seen some premature rushes to judgment, and I'm not saying this is going to work out like the Herschel Walker trade did in the end, but there's almost no point in saying who won and lost a trade until 3-5 years have elapsed. Even then, it's kind of tricky. You can make many arguments back and forth about Vazquez for Chris Young still today...about who won and lost that deal. It might look very different again in another year. Same thing with the Swisher trade/s and the development of Viciedo. Maybe if we don't trade Swisher, we can't sign Viciedo for that amount of money...there are many ripple/cause-and-effect what if's with any trade. Like the one that got us Cotts, who played a big part in leading us to the World Series, even though that trade looked like a disaster at the time. Or Olivo for Bradford. Because it netted us Garcia eventually.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 02:38 PM) I miss Ivan. Actually, if we trade Dye, we could use an Ivan-like player in 2009. In a strange way, so do I....and not just because he passed so quietly away either, barely a blip on the celebrity-obsessed radar screen. In fact, Calderon and Carlos Martinez were two of my favorite players of that era...I guess I still think of Calderon as a more talented, mercurial outfield version of Uribe...and I have fond memories of supporting the White Sox in Old Comiskey in the late 80's when you could almost have a guaranteed foul ball the number of fans in the stands was so pathetic. That's why the 1990 team will always be #1 in my heart, on par with the 2005 team. People forget what it was like to be a White Sox fan from the late 70's (with the exception of 1983) 'til the late 80's when Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Fernandez, Bere, Alvarez, etc., all came together at almost the same time.

By the way, who was the brilliant GM who ever authorized giving L. Vizcaino $4 million per season? I mean, he was the BACK end of our bullpen, the garbage guy for a majority of 2005...although he had a very good run with the Brewers before those sliders wore down his fastball into the low 90's/upper 80's.

You forgot the Barack Obama factor in the attendance and merchandising, lol. Well, that's a pretty extensive/good list of reasons not to fret. This is not the late 1980's, and Ivan Calderon is not our best player anymore. Young kids growing up with the World Series title in the back of their minds will start to identify more with the Sox if their allegiance wasn't already formed a childbirth. All things considered, KW is going to be in a much more flexible position than he would be had he kept Cabrera, Swisher, Crede, Uribe, Griffey and Vazquez. With all of those players returning, would we be again favored to win the AL Central? I don't really think so. Obviously, there's so much love out there for Cabs, Crede, Uribe and Griffey that it might be until February before they find teams, and I wouldn't be surprised if they (some) didn't even received guaranteed major league contracts. We won last year with pitching, surprise offensive performances from Ramirez/Quentin and a lot of smoke and mirrors. Just think of the Cubs as another big Ponzi scheme (contracts for Soriano, Harden, Ramirez, Lee, Zambrano, Dempster, etc.) that will collapse/implode on itself at some point in the near future.

Would anyone pay Juan Uribe $4.9 million (the contract for Aaron Miles) to stick around for two more years as a sub? Interesting question. Obviously Uribe had more of an impact with the White Sox (especially 04-05-08) than Miles had with the Rockies, but they are fairly similar players at this point in their careers in terms of their value/s to other organizations. We haven't heard much of anything about Uribe landing somewhere else, and yet Miles, Punto and Felipe Lopez. Adam Everett even found a taker. Cabrera, Eckstein and Uribe are still out there though, among others.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 11:17 AM) going from top quartile to bottom half is dramatic to me, but hey, whatever. Was that 3rd to 9th overall MLB attendance or just the American League? No matter what happens, we have the minor league talent and payroll flexibility this year to make moves throughout the season to keep us in the race and competitive...unless we're just totally out of it like 2007.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 08:30 AM) He is a sinkerball pitcher, if he is right, he is perfect for that park. The thing about Marquis is that he usually starts really strong and then fades in August when he gets fatigued and starts leaving his sinker up. The Rockies have to have sinkerball pitchers to compete I wonder why they haven't looked at Garland, with that thought in mind? Probably still too expensive for their blood, with the Rockies trying to find bargains and even considering bringing back Josh Fogg. With D. Lowe getting offered (a starting point) $36 million for 3 years (Garland's salary, FWIW, last year was $12 million) instead of crazy numbers like $70-90 million over 5-6 years, the market's really falling in on those LF/DH types (Milton Bradley, Abreu, Burrell, Griffey, G. Anderson) as well as Lowe, Garland, Oliver Perez and Randy Wolf. Maybe Pettitte as well, if he's out there on the market and making himself available.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Dec 31, 2008 -> 10:46 AM) What are you talking about, "always come out ok?" This team drew a paltry 1.3 million in 98 and 99. the team failed to hit 2 million from 1994-2004. We're already off 500,000 since 2006. This phenomenon has been studied year after year in terms of World Series teams...usually the "benefit" of that championship wears off after only five years. We're now into the fourth season, although the 2008 playoff appearance will spike it back up a little...with the countervailing force of the economy pulling it back down. We also tacked into a headwind with the Cubs becoming the dominant story in town over the last couple of seasons...and yet we're still going very strong. There's never been a huge crossover...like KW had hoped, in terms of pulling even with the Cubs as Chicago's team. I'm not sure that winning another World Series in 2006 would have done the trick, although it would have been interesting to see the effects 10-20 years later with those teenage fans who grew up with a championship team staying "brand loyal." Yes, 500,000 is a lot, but there have been a few times in Old Comiskey (70's and 80's) they struggled to draw 1,000,000 fans for an entire season. Now it's only a 20-25% drop (only being relatively), but you have to expect to lose some of the "fair weather" ticket plans and also some of the walk-up generated by the promising start to that 2006 season, which lasted until August or so of that year when the team died on us. The White Sox have always been one of the teams more driven by a winning product than by the stadium experience, although that has certainly improved over the last five years as well....Brooks Boyer also deserves a lot of credit, although, as Bill Veeck would always say, the greatest promotion at the major league level is simply a winning team.

Sign Thomas and Uribe? What? Where would they play, exactly? You said that Dotel and Linebrink were good signings, and then that relief pitchers are "poison" and we should wait on the next Politte/Cotts? I'm not sure I understand.

Taveras' deal is worth $6.25MM over two years, according to our old friend Hal McCoy. WOW. That's more than we are paying Alexei Ramirez for four seasons. (And I say this keeping in mind how much we've been paying Uribe the last couple of seasons). Maybe KW was sniffing around at some point...but I'm sure he wasn't willing to pony up that kind of money. Interesting (VERY!) move by the Reds to shell out that kind of cash when they supposedly can't afford Jermaine Dye. If that was the option he was presented, even Jerry Owens looks attractive in comparison.

Pretty simple logic. The Cubs were looking to dump Marquis on just about anyone who would take him, and I'm assuming they will pay 60-65% of his salary...maybe even more. For Vizcaino, another change of scenery trade, they probably had to include SOMEONE instead of just basically giving him to the Rockies. I read somewhere where the Dodgers were willing to eat almost $20 million of Andruw Jones' contract for next season. I think that would be pretty tempting for KW, although Jones is still struggling in the early going down in the Dominican from what I've read. EDIT: I looked up the deal, and I can't believe the Cubs are getting away with murder again. Their payroll would go down by $5 million...and they would only have to pay $1 million on Marquis' salary after heading into the offseason expecting to contribute $5-6 million to get him off their hands. However, they do take a very questionable reliever's contract on in Vizcaino, who had almost as rough a year as Marquis and then had a DUI already this offseason.

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archi...y_cap_tell.html Another article on the topic du jour...maybe the best one, but with a Houston focus specifically.

QUOTE (maggliopipe @ Dec 30, 2008 -> 10:43 AM) What gets me in articles like this is they focus on the fact that the Yankees haven't won a championship since 2000 and suggest that despite their super high payroll, the playing field is even because we've had a laundry list of other teams win it all since them. What their payroll buys them is hope from the first day of spring training and basically (with the exception of this past season) an automatic ticket to the postseason.. Pirates fans sure as hell know they have no chance of winning it all on Feb 9th. Ditto Royals fans and all the fans of other thrifty organizations. To suggest that their payroll gives them no advantage by pointing out they haven't won since 2000 is ridiculous. Well, I guess the point is that the Yankees were much better off as a team when they had complementary/role players and weren't comprised solely of superstars. Heck, you can say the same thing for the 2005 White Sox versus the 2006-2008 versions. Spending money guarantees a "chance" to compete but not success, certainly in terms of winning the World Series. Most experts aren't even ready to pick the Yankees over the Rays or Red Sox yet. More and more teams are studying the path which teams like the Twins, A's, Marlins and Rays have taken in terms of developing their own players. The fact is that even the Red Sox have only signed Drew and Dice-K to pretty huge FA deals. They spend generously on their own players, but more and more, they're looking to develop internally, and the results bear that out (despite trading Hanley Ramirez), with 2 championships to none for the Yankees since 2001. Or look at the Cowboys with 13 Pro Bowlers and a huge payroll missing the playoffs. It's all about chemistry, baby (that's for Al Davis). Terrell Owens even made a point to compare the Eagles' locker room and their own, and noted the huge difference in the two organizations, their coaches and their approaches to maximizing their players' potential.

Wells really came after Thomas for being a sissy and being injured (faking it) when it turned out that Thomas was legitimately hurt...I think that was the bone spur/foot/bursitis injury. Didn't he go on the local radio (he had a show for awhile) and make himself look like an A-S-? The option was also declined because it looked to be a huge risk coming off the mysterious back problems/injury and with his age and weight issues. They did received about $5.5 million back for the 2001 season in an insurance claim, but KW really didn't show much interest in bringing Wells back, even with "make good" contract terms. Sirotka wasn't known by most in baseball to be likely to be done with his career...I can't imagine Gord Ash was so foolish as to take a picture they thought was injured. Obviously, they didn't do their 'due diligence' in that case.

You have to give the Royals some credit in this area...the guy who wrote the article basically wrote them off as hopeless, and I don't think you can go that far. Probably the author doesn't know the many difference/s between Alard Baird and Dayton Moore...Gil Meche and Jose Guillen (agree or disagree with those moves all you like) are just a couple of signs this club is going into a more competitive direction, not to mention the alleged pursuit/s of Furcal (moving Aviles to 2B permanently) and their name being mentioned much more prominently than the White Sox this offseason. I'd say they are even more free-spending than the Twins even, at this point.

The irony here is that Pohlad and Lerner are two of the richest owners (worth between $3-4 billion) and they run their franchises like middle level managers afraid of losing their Sam's Club middle management golden parachute. David Glass, penurious as any, looks like a free spender compared to those two (although I'll give Lerner credit for okaying a go at Tex, something we might never see out of Pohlad...if it happens, it will be with the new stadium opening for 2010).

OzzieWorld, lol? Well, David Wells was also "coaxed" out of retirement by KW, and he was/is also a former Yankee, so perhaps stranger things have happened in the history of baseball. As far as Ramirez and Dye being expected to put up similar numbers in 2009...well, I'll leave that for others to decide. It would be a huge gamble. There's no doubt about that. And I haven't even really seen the question posed to KW or Ozzie in the last 2-3 weeks, when it's become more and more obvious that no team will give him more than 2 years at $20 million plus, nor are many teams capable of dealing with "Manny Being Manny" playing on a one year deal if he's not happy with anything at all around him. However, KW and Ozzie have pretty healthy egos...I think there's a part of them that believe they could control/manage him. Whether that's true or not, I have my doubts. David Wells was a disaster from the beginning of his White Sox tenure, and Albert Belle wasn't as helpful as his statistics would indicate either. It's not quite so crazy as Bonds or Sosa...I don't know, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense, if there's a team out there willing to bite on Dye for young pitching. I would be pretty surprised if KW offered Dye for Jackson to the Rays and was turned down in favor of Matt Joyce, but stranger things have happened this offseason I suppose. If that is/was the case, maybe we're overvaluing Dye a bit...or maybe overvaluing him because he's more valuable to the White Sox because of our stadium then he would be to almost any other team in baseball.

Marti was 1-0 with two saves and a 0.00 ERA in 12 2/3 innings during four games in the inaugural WBC, when Cuba finished second to Japan. The right-hander joined Daisuke Matsuzaka and Chan Ho Park as the all-WBC pitchers. Marti and his teammates were welcomed home as heroes after the event, climbing aboard a convoy of green military jeeps and parading through Havana’s streets. Marti talked publicly about how Cuba would seek revenge during the 2009 WBC and he was expected to again be one of the national team’s stars in the tournament this spring. But Friday’s announcement virtually guarantees neither he nor Gomez will play baseball for Cuba again in any capacity. The 29-year-old Marti began his career with the island’s top baseball league in 1999 with the Metropolitanos of Havana, the capital’s second-tier squad. He was a short, thin prospect who scouts thought did not have the physical stature to become a star, but his excellent control and craftiness on the mound helped him win a spot on the Industriales in 2002. from havanajournal.com Actually, I think a lot of people project Marti as a 4th/5th starter type or reliever (think Contreras)...not overwhelming stuff, but very crafty and wily (like a position player being a grinder I guess). FWIW, he was considered Cuba's best pitcher at the first WBC but then was left off the Olympic team's roster under somewhat mysterious/murky circumstances (although maybe he has slipped and some would argue he didn't deserve to make the team on its merits, other argue for the political/defection/punishment angle). The hilarious thing is a lot of Yankees fans want Gomez to be their starting CFer (don't think THAT will happen) and they're worried about losing him to the White Sox, even though they've spent more money this offseason than about 20 franchises do over the course of two full seasons.

Are you sure about that? When you say "support staff," do you mean specialized coaches (like position coaches) and trainers? I would think the average NFL coaching staff soaks up a much bigger percentage of overall payroll than a baseball one...although maybe the average baseball manager's salary is 1.25-1.5X as much? Then again, there are quite a few very highly paid NFL head coaches, and their coaching staffs are also tremendously costly, because their contracts give them a lot of freedom to bring in their own people and pay them top dollar. As far as concessions, parking, and the day-to-day overhead, like police/security, ushers, etc., obviously much much higher for MLB teams....who don't generate much revenue for many of their weekday and non-summer games.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 30, 2008 -> 07:39 AM) Again, the Sox are not being left behind here. Other than the Yankees, NO ONE is making huge moves. This is the nature of the market this offseason - it will be late and cheap. January should be very interesting. If we signed Pettitte or Mussina (less likely) for something like $10-12 million per season, I think we'd immediately jump to co front-runners in the AL Central. Along with bringing in Manny Ramirez and moving Dye for pitching...there's almost no market for Manny right now, only the Dodgers (and they still have the almost impossible task of moving Pierre and A. Jones) and the Red Sox (that's going to happen, not!) being the teams in the best position to bring him into the fold. KW would be in a great position to make a 1-2 year offer. The only problem, and it's huge, is the last time the White Sox tried this, his name was Albert Belle, and he put together one of the most statistically misleading seasons in the history of baseball.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 30, 2008 -> 07:26 AM) It really doesn't matter what the team looks like now as far as what it will look like on opening day, and maybe KW feels he has a much better chance of pulling off whatever his plan is by not being in the news. What does hurt the White Sox now is the fan who has been contemplating buying season tickets for a few years. Saying you're slashing payroll and going with young guys who have failed before doesn't sell season ticket packages. Of course if his big moves are made a month or two from now, those packages could be sold then, but you always risk that money that was going to be spent on White Sox tickets being spent on something else. Maybe the fan decides, I'll get a big plasma and home theater system instead and watch Hawk and Stone. I don't know what the traditional White Sox balance is between season ticket holders/corporate/sponsors and walk-up gate, but, with the exception of the 2006 season, I think the Sox fans are traditionally a late May through mid-September crowd and they're mostly driven by competitive baseball, and, to a lesser extent, promotions like fireworks night/s. Sure, right now, the situation doesn't look very hopeful (at this precise moment), but we're much better off for having made the playoffs than had the season ended up with disappointment and resignation. Even if the fans stay home and start to watch WGN broadcasts, that's still putting revenue in the club's coffers...maybe the effects won't be so immediate. Maybe there are many fans waiting for a move to be made (something like Manny Ramirez and Dye traded, something very dramatic) like David Wells in 2001. I'm not sure. It definitely feels like a wait and see type of attitude by most of the fanbase. Hopefully, guardedly optimistic but also with the 2007 season not completely eviscerated from the memory banks either.

This isn't like 2007 because I doubt Andy Gonzalez and Wasserman will be playing starring roles. If Fields and Owens didn't work out, we have multiple position player options...especially to cover for Josh. CF still remains a hole, though. No matter what, we have a lot more flexibility than in 2007 (the only bad contracts on our books are Contreras and Konerko/Thome, sort of) and our farm system has improved immensely. There was a sense at that time that we might be looking at a 3-5 year rebuilding process, and the Indians and Tigers looked very formidable going forward, to go along with the always pesky Twins. If we're anywhere close at the break, we have more financial flexibility and the minor leaguers to get almost any impact hitter or pitcher we want. That hasn't been the case for quite awhile. It is interesting to ponder whether or not the White Sox would have been able to cut the budget relatively quietly had the economy not gone into tank? Or was this KW's way of simply taking advantage of the pending loss/es of Thome/Dye and eventually AJ and Konerko, one year earlier, with the getting younger/leaner/hungrier/more athletic theme juxtaposed with that a similar image for all of corporate America (like the auto manufacturers)? However, Sox fans have seen the "These Kids Can Play" approach once or twice in their lifetimes, and it only works once with most diehard Sox fans. KW knows this. I think the lack of movement (and there's still around 150 players out there, like Hudson and Roberts via trade) is all of the GM's simply waiting for the tide to flow in their direction, with players like Manny Ramirez eventually realizing the market won't be set by the remaining players...that, in fact, it will be a game of musical chairs and no players/agents will want to be left standing out in the cold. I'm especially curious to see where Cabrera does end up. I bet he and his agent are getting a bit nervous now...his situation could even go into Spring Training, when a team possibly loses their starter to injury and has to gamble on Cabrera for a one year deal.