caulfield12

QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 16, 2008 -> 02:05 PM) Gamethread was starting to look pretty slow. Must have been really slow last year about this time! Maybe it's the Olympics capturing the attention of some Sox fans?

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 16, 2008 -> 12:22 PM) If the Sox are actually trying to compete next season, they need a veteran to back up Fields. And good luck getting a starter-quality veteran to sign a one-year deal. When Crede wasn't hitting early on in his career, he was at least contributing by playing solid defense. Josh wasn't contributing anything of value this season. That doesn't mean that you give up on the guy, but he has to show that he can hit ML pitching again before Kenny tosses him the keys to 3B. If Kenny can't land somebody like Beltre or Blake this winter, I want him to re-sign Uribe to a two-year deal to pseudo-platoon with Fields at 3B and relieve whoever is at SS and 2B next season (in sort of a super-utility role). And I disagree that Anderson was mistreated. BA had his head way up his ass in 2006 and got himself into Ozzie's doghouse. Ozzie doesn't put up with big-ego rookies, nor should he be expected to. He's since matured and is doing the things that he should've been doing all along. Despite the fact that he's still not really hitting, he's still getting significant playing time in CF. From what I understand, the M's and their new GM have decided that they really like Beltre after all, and with their overall budget being a high one, despite the drop in attendance (of course, Ichiro keeps it elevated too), they feel that both his age, his contract becoming more and more reasonable, his defense and dependability...all make Beltre a player they're less likely to shed than it has seemingly appeared. In other words, they will give him up, but they're not actively trying to do so anymore, like they are with Batista, Silva, Washburn and perhaps even Bedard.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Aug 16, 2008 -> 11:21 AM) Brutal = Uribe and then Konerko and Griffey right now I would consider brutal. How long have you been a White Sox fan? If you remember Mark Johnson and Royce Clayton in 2001 and 2002, that would be the definition of a brutal bottom of the line-up. Yeah, Konerko's not himself and Griffey's slumping big-time, but I don't think it's fair to call them "brutal." Now if you were talking about Uribe and Brian Anderson in 2006, I would also agree with you.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Aug 16, 2008 -> 09:26 AM) It was no doubt a horrible way to lose last night, but you guys have to expect s*** like this. We are not a complete baseball team at all since we have two brutal hitters every game at the bottom of the lineup, a depleted bullpen and inconsistent starters. We just need to get through this series, hopefully take the next two and remain tied or up one on the Twins. Look at their upcoming schedule, it's horrible and they suck on the road. They have played over their heads the entire year, they are bound for a bad streak because Denard Span and Brian Buscher are not .300+ hitters. They are gonna lose like 7/10 soon and the Sox just need to make sure they win at least 6/10 to get a little cushion. But since again this team is not even close to complete, they are gonna look like world-beaters one night and scum the next. I don't know how many times in the last decade someone has said something similar... Luis Rivas, Doug Mientkiewicz, Christian Guzman, Denny Hocking, Jason Tyner, Lew Ford, Nick Punto, Brian Buscher, Denard Span, etc., are not .300 hitters. How can a rotation with Slowey, Blackburn, Baker and Perkins be putting up similar numbers to our $35-40 million dollar rotation? Well, we don't know what Span is...he's an athletic first round draft pick who has played above expectations, but who expected Alexei Ramirez to be a .300 hitter, perhaps the best White Sox hitter this season after Quentin and Dye? We know that Uribe's not a great hitter, but who else are you referring to as "brutal"??? Ramirez has hit 8th for most of the season. Are you referring to Swisher? Konerko? Our offense isn't the problem, although it would certainly help if they were more consistent and put their foot on the necks of teams and garbage pitchers they should be crushing.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 16, 2008 -> 09:33 AM) I don't think that's the problem. Dotel is a former closer who has several years experience in other bullpen roles. I think that it has more to do with the fact that Dotel has been an average/mediocre pitcher since undergoing Tommy John surgery a few years ago. His numbers over the past couple of years aren't nearly as good as what he's put up overall this season. That's not to say that Dotel can't shake these disastrous outings and finish with a very strong season, but one shouldn't be surprised that he's not exactly lights-out all of the time. And there's little evidence that moving from middle relief to setup man is responsible for it. Hasn't he been having back problems? I saw where he attributed his performance in the final Boston game (Danks' start) to fatigue from the really long Tigers game we won on Swisher's walk-off after Thornton gave up the 2nd homer to Polanco. Dotel...I don't know, obviously he's lost 3-5 MPH on his fastball. You look at his stats, and everything appears great, but then you get outings like last night. I guess it's kind of a cop-out to excuse him, he's a major league veteran, after all. It just seems when we had Dotel/Thornton, then Linebrink, then Jenks, everything just seemed to click. Ozzie's been searching for that fourth reliever for weeks now...sometimes it's Carrasco (more recently), but I think he also has to look at Ramirez and Russell to see what he can get out of those guys. Unfortunately, on-the-job training for Russell, but in the heat of a pennant race. I understand why he left Dotel in there...even though logic/match-ups might have favored Ramirez. It's simply that Ozzie Factor...he likes to believe in his players until they prove him wrong too many times, and removing Dotel would have raised more doubts in Dotel's mind about his ability to get it done. In some ways, Dotel has been very resilient in bouncing back from disasters in the late innings, but there's something about him that has always been "fragile" and has led to his moving around quite a bit throughout his career.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 16, 2008 -> 09:10 AM) If Fields is going to hit .220, I'd rather go with Uribe. At least Juan is a defensive asset. If Fields isn't hitting .250+ and/or has a weak slugging percentage, there's no room for him in chicago. Either way, I don't think that Fields is ready yet. Kenny's better off giving a veteran a two-year deal and allowing Josh to work his way in. Kind of the same thing we did with Crede (Herb Perry in 2000/01)...although Crede had more of a track record (at least two All-Star teams and maybe a league MVP) in the minors than Fields. Of course, as a college player, Josh was expected to be closer than a HS player, but Josh's time as QB at OSU took time away from his baseball development. I don't think we need to sign someone for two years though...I would rather go on a year-by-year basis at the position until things are clarified. I guess, in some ways, Brian Anderson has received even worse treatment (Rowand went through the same doubts) than Fields. We'll see what Josh is made out of...and how much the injuries figured into his performance this season. It is pretty unusual when an MLB rookie puts up less than a full season with more than 20 homers and then completely disappears the next season. That talent didn't just disappear. It's not like Borchard went out and accomplished anything close to approximating Fields' 2007 season.

QUOTE (jenks45monster @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 10:59 PM) They just signed Eric Hosmer (#3 overall pick in 2008 draft) and Tim Melville (went in the 4th round; had first round talent - dropped due to money issues) We can potentially be looking at a lineup like this in 2011: C - Miguel Olivo DH - Billy Butler (As Hawk says: "This kid's gonna be a great hitter some day.") 1B - Eric Hosmer (#3 overall pick in 2008 draft) 2B - Mike Aviles (I can see him sliding over to 2B to make room for Mike Moustakas; looking pretty damn good this year, though I hate his batting stance) SS - Mike Moustakas (#2 overall pick in 2007 draft) 3B - Alex Gordon (#2 overall pick in 2005 draft; very high ceiling) LF - Mark Teahen CF - Mitch Maier (#30 overall pick in 2003 draft; high ceiling;) RF - David DeJesus Some notable pitchers: P - Luke Hochevar (#1 overall pick in 2006 draft; VERY high ceiling) P - Joakim Soria (All-Star this year) P - Zack Greinke (#6 overall pick in 2002 draft; high ceiling; only 24 years old) P - Tim Melville (High ceiling; first round draft talent; dropped because of money) Notable pitcher - Brian Bannister (already 27 years old but has solid potential) Of course this would be the line-up if everybody on that list pans out (which I doubt). If the majority of them do pan out, I would be very, very afraid of a lineup like this. I don't think Teahen, DeJesus and Olivo are in their long-term plans at all. Teahen is basically Casey Blake-Lite (he looked much better a couple of seasons ago, and was hitting more doubles and homers)...and DeJesus is a very good player who's not a superstar and doesn't hit for enough power or steal enough bases to make $10 million plus per year, but he will be too expensive for the Royals soon, and he doesn't have much of an arm for CF, nor hit for enough power for the corners. We'll just have to wait and see...you'd think, like the Rays, that eventually those high draft picks would lead to some success at the major league level. I think Aviles will need to prove himself every season...as a player signed for only $1000, he has the body of a catcher and a very low OBP. Lots of people in KC got excited about Berroa (he beat Matsui for ROY) and nothing came of his career. In KC, there was a lot of hope in early 2003...and that was a mirage. Then they also had a team with Beltran, Dye, Sweeney and had to break it up and sell off the pieces. David Glass surprised a lot of people by signing Meche for the money that they did, and it did give them a measure of respectability around the league that they were willing to compete for some of the best FA talent. If you look at the Royals' record of first round draft picks since around 1990, it has been even worse than the White Sox. That's the main reason the franchise has been struggling for the last 15 years or so. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/alltime/draft?team=kan Just look at their list from around 1988. Joe Vitiello 1991 7th pick Jeff Granger 1993 5th pick Dan Reichert 1997 7th pick (he had a really nasty slider, but his build was so slight, he broke down) Jeff Austin 1998 4th pick Kyle Sndyer 1999 7th pick Mike Stodolka 2000 4th pick Colt Griffin 2001 9th pick (he was kind of one of those "The Rookie" legends, he hit 100 MPH on a tryout radar gun but never came close) Chris Lubanski 2003 5th pick That's not counting Hugh Walker, Jim Pittsley (very tall dude), Matt Smith, Juan Lebron, Dee Brown and Matt Burch...another list of first rounders who had no or minimal impact on the Royals. We missed big-time with Borchard, but he wasn't even a Top 10 pick)...he was #12 I think. Although with the money they gave him, he was the equivalent of Porcello last year with the Tigers.

I think we're supposed to face something like four consecutive left-handers, so it's not the best idea in the world for him to sit for 4 games if we expect him to have any timing at all next week. And it's not like Thome has been that great against lefties the last couple of seasons anyway.

It's just frustrating when we consistently have better teams than the Twins (you certainly can argue that this year's and the 2003 teams were better), yet we come up short time after time. Those Twins teams just don't beat themselves...which we seem to do more than most other teams in baseball. Of course, the losses are more magnified when you listen/follow/watch your team's games throughout the course of a season, almost every inning. Yes, the Twins lost two "easy" games they should have won in Seattle...no bullpen goes through the season without a blown save, but the Twins just seem to get more done with less, starting with their payroll. I suppose an argument can be made that we would be behind the Twins had they summoned Liriano a month earlier, that we would have lost four games at the Dome instead of taking one out of four while Hernandez was still in the rotation. The bottom line is that they have five pitchers in their rotation that are 24-26 years old...we have two, neither one of which were our draft picks (Danks/Floyd). None of their pitchers were high (top 10 in the first round) draft picks. None of them have dominating stuff...with the exception of Liriano before his injury, and he came from SF for AJ. You can argue they had even more depth, enough to trade former late first rounder Matt Garza for D. Young and put Boof Bonser in the bullpen. Players like Anderson and Ramirez just seem to make more mistakes than properly trained/coached baseball players like the Twins always seem to have...you look at their roster, they've lost Juan Rincon, Pat Neshek, Michael Cuddyer and Alexi Casilla for long stretches of this season, but they've almost always had internal options to replace those players. Who do we have? Nobody. Which is why you've seen the likes of DJ Carrasco and Horatio Ramirez trying to get key outs in recent Sox games...and why KW had to go out and spend millions on Linebrink and Dotel. The closest thing we have/had to success stories in terms of producing minor league relievers are Wasserman, Logan and Adam Russell. NOTE: Yes, I realize Alexei was playing in Cuba without much proper training and coaching, yet most of his pure baseball instincts are 100% better than minor leaguers who've been in our system 3-6 seasons.

Statistics since Linebrink went out on July 22nd Carrasco 14 IP, 6 ER=3.86 ERA (you can see why OG wants to keep him down in the pen when you look at the other ERA's, and number of IP) Logan 5 1/3 IP, 9 ER=31.21 ERA (banished) Dotel 10 2/3 IP, 6 ER=5.06 ERA (suffering from a move from the 7th to 8th inning) Jenks 9 IP, 2 ER=2.00 (the one bright spot, along with DJ Carrasco, at least until last night) Masset 2 IP, 3 ER=13.50 (exiled) Thornton 10 1/3 IP, 5 ER=4.35 ERA (getting worn down?) Wasserman 8 1/3 IP, 4 ER=4.32 ERA (actually pitched better than his first time up) Russell 8 2/3 IP, 5 ER=5.19 ERA H. Ramirez 1 IP, 1 ER=9.00 ERA Broadway 1/3 IP, 0 ER=0.00 ERA TOTAL DAMAGES 69 2/3 IP, 41 ER=5.30 ERA (2 huge blown saves at Minnesota and Oakland) According to a Phil Rogers/Tribune article, the mathematical predictors are giving the advantage to the White Sox to win the division based on relief pitching (I think it's actually even without Linebrink), defense (not so sure about that) and because of the Twins' upcoming 14 game road swing. Without Linebrink, I would give the Twins a slight edge because the White Sox have to play them at the Dome. However, TB and NY are wounded, which really should help the White Sox. After games like last night's you really want to give up watching the White Sox and just tune in at the end of the season, but, thankfully, there's a new day tomorrow (instead of waiting for a week like football) and anything can happen. I really wish they would hire someone to work with Anderson and Ramirez on their baserunning.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Aug 16, 2008 -> 12:10 AM) I'm glad the team took their stupid pills today... Seriously, 0-2 to Cust, and you throw a cookie fastball over the meat of the plate about belly-button height? WTF were you thinking Dotel? The funny thing is that McDowell was advocating that Floyd do exactly that all game long, instead of nibbling and getting behind in the counts and having to make perfect pitches with 3-2 counts every time. Getting beaten by Cust twice is similar to getting beaten by Morneau every time against the Twins. Morneau is the one guy you really have to pitch around...I mean, their #4 hitter is a guy named Carlos Gonzalez with four home runs. Yet, I'm not surprised. Actually, Jenks has blown a game or two against the A's over the years and I was fully expecting (and prepared for) Jenks to give up the lead somehow, despite how well he has pitched for most of this season.

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 11:52 PM) No, it's because we scored something like 9 runs in 4 games in Toronto earlier this year in the 4 game sweep they gave us. Or giving away three or four run leads twice in Minnesota, once against KC and now this game. And even though Liriano is only throwing 89-92 and his slider's at 81-83 instead of 90, nobody can beat the guy...well, at least the bad teams are laying down for him so far.

This team is no different than the 2001-2004 versions, with the exception that we had one extra pitcher in the rotation and not a black hole. KW hasn't learned how to construct a team to defeat the Twins consistently. Instead of becoming defense-oriented, we added players like Swisher and Griffey. If we're looking for the likes of Horacio Ramirez and DJ Carrasco (remember, these guys were cast off by the ROYALS!!!) to save us in crucial games down the stretch, then we deserve what comes to us. Horrible baserunning by Ramirez and Anderson, and another choke job by Dotel. And yet it's not surprising at all. I wonder if we wouldn't be better off if we just forfeited the games in Oakland? Because winning 6 of 34 since 2001 is just plain ridiculous for even the worst MLB club to perform that poorly in a stadium.

QUOTE (jphat007 @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 10:22 PM) That guy only hits against us. If we have Linebrink, then we don't see Dotel in this game and we're probably handing the game over to Jenks with a two-run lead. I just don't think we can get to the playoffs without a healthy Scott. Dotel's just too shaky.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 10:18 PM) That's not Anderson's fault though. His coaches have to be communicating with him that the ball got away. When you're picked off like that, you're only focusing on getting to 2nd base. I don't know...I think from the reaction of the infielders, and the fact that there's a distinctly different noise from the crowd when the ball is careening down towards the bullpen versus a successful pick-off, I just wonder why Anderson wasn't looking at the 3rd base coach? I just remember someone like Jose Valentin running the bases, and thinking he would have scored easily...even though he wasn't a particularly fast runner. He never seemed to make demonstrable mistakes like that, though.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 10:11 PM) Absolutely the right call to send him. According to McDowell, Anderson turned to look for the ball (when he heard the crowd noise), hesitated rounding 2nd base and didn't look for Cox. Both seemed to blame Anderson's baseball instincts more than Cox's decision-making.

QUOTE (Karko's Throat Skin @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 10:05 PM) Thornton looks much better than he has been. Hope the back injury is overblown. BTW, who are we DL'ing/DFA for Richard? Or is it Broadway? It would be tempting to leave Thornton in, the way he's pitched so far, but I am sure OG will go with Dotel. The way that Thornton has weakened in the 2nd and 3rd innings of appearances, and with his acknowleding that he's been feeling a little weak in terms of arm strength (and maybe the back?), we have to send Dotel out there.

QUOTE (Jenks Heat @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 10:57 PM) Bet this pitcher doesn't make it through 4 on Tuesday. Blows 88 MPH fastballs by people. Really sad display of offense. It seems any Sox pitcher that rolls along like that somehow gets dinged up eventually (Danks v. Boston) while the Sox most likely will not reach base again tonight. We've done better against LH pitchers and "no name" pitchers this year, compared to the past. It's hard to predict with our offense...we own some of the best "stuff" pitchers in the league, like Justin Verlander. Yes, it would have been better to step on their necks and keep them out of the game entirely. Will be interesting to see how former A's closer Dotel does against them. Is he going to overthrow and walk two guys, or stay within himself?

Well, the A's are 4-21 since the break, but I'm certainly not expecting a sweep. By the way, thanks M's...good move signing Silva. OTOH, they're 27-6 against the White Sox in Oakland since 2001. This game is getting very scary. Floyd was flirting with disaster all game long...as McDowell noted, nobody was catching up with his fastball until Cust, who's their only really dangerous hitter against Floyd's best heater. His pitch count shouldn't have been 97 after five innings because he was nibbling too much and trying to make the perfect pitches when McDowell noted it would have been better to just pound the strike zone with your FB and force them to change his approach.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 09:55 AM) We're sending the elder Danks to winterball? Why? After the innings he's logged already this year he ought to have the winter off to rest that valuable left arm. I would be totally shocked if they sent the elder Danks to the AFL. Usually, it's your top 3 position prospects (AA, sometimes high A) and your top two pitchers and a reliever, or two relievers and a starter. I think it's going to be tough for the White Sox to find six players that fit that bill in the high minors. I would go with Getz (to keep learning multiple infield positions, depending on the plan for 09 w/ Crede-Fields-Uribe), Poreda, Adam Russell, and...not sure after that. It would be nice to see Fields gain some confidence going into next season...but perhaps he needs the time off mentally. It would also be interesting to see how well someone like Shelby or Brandon Allen would fare, although that might be pushing it to send them at this point to the AFL. I doubt we see either Beckham or Danks in the AFL, but it's all up to KW.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 15, 2008 -> 10:00 AM) Problem with these lists is that it really depends on your idea of balance, between ceiling/future value and how close they are to contributing. That's where you get some differences, where Getz for example might be 2nd or 3rd because he's ready. Also, who falls under prospect? What about guys like Mike MacDougal or Ehren Wassermann, who are at AAA but have played major league ball? Or a guy like Brian Anderson? I assume those are not really prospects anymore, but that's a matter of opinion. I assume Broadway and Russell are still prospects, though. But trying to combine the two, here is what I come up with for quick and dirty lists... PITCHERS 1. Poreda 2. Broadway 3. Richard 4. Egbert 5. Cassel 6. Link 7. Harrell 8. Teixera 9. Shirek 10. D Carter 12. Hudson 13. Sauer 14. Upchurch 15. Asselin POSITION PLAYERS 1. Getz 2. Fields 3. Beckham 4. Allen 5. Jose Martinez 6. Shelby 7. Jordan Danks 8. Retherford 9. Miranda 10. Cook 11. Escobar 12. Jorge Castillo 13. Morel 14. Kuhn 15. Gerst 16. Kendall The way I look at it, and maybe it's different from BA, is which player/s have the best chance to become starters/major contributors for an "average" major league ballclub. So it's basically more about future impact projection than about which one is closest to the major leagues. Going by that standard, it's hard to say that we really have any surefire (where there's a very solid consensus) prospects after Beckham and Poreda. Of course, lots of things can change...and Fields isn't eligible because he has exceeded the rookie status of 130 at-bats or so. MacDougal was once a prospect, I don't think Wasserman, due to his limited potential as a reliever, was ever considered by most scouts to be anything more than a B level prospect. Usually the Top 10 lists might have a reliever or two, but they're "closers" or "future closers" about 95% of the time.

I read somewhere that, if they were revising the list to take into account the first half of the season, that Chris Getz was even getting some consideration for #1 and definitely #2 prospect in the system. In some ways, that's a little depressing, because many don't project him to be much more than a good utility player in the majors, but it shows how far and consistently his stock has risen as a prospect since signing.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Aug 14, 2008 -> 08:51 PM) from 1987-90 we were amazing McDowell followed by Thomas followed by Ventura followed by Alex Fernandez. we have many problems. Usually we have not had a top 10 pick. but we've wasted money on guys like Borchard and Fields, who lost good developmental time to football Need to stop that. We've been burned by injuries -- Honel and Stumm. And we don't do a good job of developing talent. Not to mention Corwin Malone, Rauch, Jim Parque, Danny Wright and Lorenzo Barcelo, to name five more pitchers that were projected to be contributors. Didn't Tyler Lumsden have a lot of health issues not long after signing with the Sox, also? The whole football/athlete thing didn't work very well with Brian West, either. Was he at LSU or he gave up a scholarship for football to LSU to sign with the Sox? Can't remember.

We would never want Teahen at 3B defensively (I lived in KC for ten years and saw enough, no matter what the stats say)...and he's a little like Ross Gload, not hitting for enough power to play corner infield or outfield spots and not quite athletic enough to play the middle of the field. Peralta is a disaster defensively, I'd like to try to improve our defense if we are giving up offense (see Uribe). Inge would be a great utility player and back-up catcher and still has a very good arm, but I don't want to see him whiffing 200 times of playing 140+ games for us. I think the Angels will hold onto Wood and see if they can increase his value again. A lot depends on the Figgins situation. They held onto McPherson and Kotchmann for a long time, same with Kendry Morales. At different points, they could have had huge returns for these players, along with Wood and Aybar.

QUOTE (Cerbaho-WG @ Aug 14, 2008 -> 07:47 PM) If rules allowed it, Carter would #1-30. What's the story with Carter? What's his arsenal? Does he project as a starter or reliever? Obviously, I can look at his stats and peripherals and be impressed (as with many stats in Rookie League or DSL/Venezuela), but who has "eyeballed" him in person? Why was he drafted relatively low? Signability issues? I always look at players drafted outside of the first five rounds with a bit more skepticism, but there are tons of examples like Buehrle and Piazza who weren't high drafts or who weren't noticed by most teams (Pujols).