michelangelosmonkey

Aren't we rolling the dice with Robert and Madrigan and Kopeck and Cease...seems like exactly the team to roll the dice on...but spend the money on Cole.

He put up a .950 OPS in AAA this year...not much different than Robert this year or Jiminez last year. He hit .280 this year in AAA at 24. He hit .360 in his senior year in Miami. The idea that his ceiling is .220 with 25 homers and he can't catch seems wildly pessimistic. An elite batting eye added to the natural maturation process would suggest he could be an elite hitter. Maybe we've used up our unbridled optimism on Robert and Madrigal but if we're going to dream it doesn't seem crazy to dream that Collins could be very good.

I always thought Zack Collins was going to be the new Ted Simmons. Simmons was not a great fielding catcher (Dwar of 5.0 TOTAL over 21 seasons) but he was a very good hitter. He had a nine year stretch of putting up nearly 5 WAR per season. Collins hasn't shown the batting average but has shown more power and walks than TS. What has stalled my enthusiasm though is...why did the Sox only have him catch 50 games in Charlotte? Why did he only catch 10 games in the majors last year of the 25 games he played in? It seems like last year was the year you really wanted to find out what guys could do before moving all the chips in. Seems like the White Sox are telling us they don't believe he can catch...or maybe they were telling us they love McCann...or maybe Collins had a sore knee...or maybe the pitchers have said they hate throwing to Collins? Who knows. Still the idea of paying Collins league minimum to be DH and back up 1B and maybe catch 40 or 50 games for the next few years while putting up an .850 OPS seems pretty valuable. Again...just turning 25 so he could improve as a catcher in a year or two and then at 27 step in as full time C?

I feel like three or four of the most frequent posters on Soxtalk hate him for some reason. So there is a general feeling that hes a bust based on a handful of loud voices. It does seem like the organization has given up on him being a catcher...but power, LH and amazing OBP should make him an attractive part of the team. I'm excited for him.

Collins had a .950 OPS in AAA...not much different than Robert. He's lefty, catches and has an elite batting eye. He's only 24, has a strong pedigree and has gotten better each year. Why wouldn't you give him a chance? Why are people not more excited about him? Use Grandall money on Cole.

I dont love Rutherford. Poppysox made a joke about Ruth looking good at RF...and I thought it was funny that we HAVE a B Ruth lefty hitting RF in our system. I also dont like flushing a kid at 22....there's room to grow.

You start off by saying you might have jumped the gun on Collins and then IMMEDIATELY write off his catching. Didnt he catch Thursdays game...when people said he was a terrible hopeless catcher...and yet a bunch of garbage pitchers held hot Twins bats to one run? Wouldn't his bat look great at catcher?

B Ruth-erford. 21 year old lefty right fielder. Of course most on here have written him off as he's not an all star yet.

I have to say...I love Poppysox positive attitude...which seems so rare on this site. Baseball is about dreaming what might be. I've followed the Sox for 50 years and I've never been more excited for the future. My dad started following the Sox when Ruth was playing RF for the Yankees...and he checks on three farm teams a night. Spring training cant come soon enough.

That's fair...heat of the moment thoughts are different than reasoned opinions. But Collins hate on this board is crazy. I think young players learn and an elite batting eye has enormous value

Well thank goodness we can finally agree that Collins is not a major leaguer. 15 at bats in September after 25 earlier in the year. Sure he crushed AAA pitching this year, and he's only 24, at a very difficult position and sure he's put up a .350 OBP in those 15 at bats...but done. Lopez also done...as were Giolitto and Moncado last year. Life is much easier when we can make sweeping conclusions instantly.

Snarky attacks are so clever. Robert signing, Sale trade, Eaton trade Quintana trade, Madrigal draft, Vaughan draft...what?? What hasn't gone well? Yes injuries have hurt but if you dont think this team is on the cusp...I'm not sure what you are looking at.

Please...go get a new hobby. Hating the White Sox and constant whining about the management on every thread and every conversation makes the whole sight boring. Yes rebuilding is hard and suffering through losing seasons to become a great team is taxing...but this isn't random...the rebuild has been well calculated and well executed. If you can't enjoy where we are right now in the evolution of the team, seemingly on the cusp of greatness...there's no hope that you will ever enjoy the team. Go find something that makes you happy.

I'm SO happy Dylan Covey pitched last night. I wasn't paying that close of attention and I knew it was close to Dylan Cease's turn in the rotation...and after last time's very encouraging start I was looking forward to another step forward...then I saw the 7 runs given up by Dylan C in 2 and a half innings and I felt depressed. Only later did I see it was the other Dylan that got killed. Dylan Covey getting destroyed means nothing for the team outside of this one day. And any fans buying tickets got to see Anderson and Moncado go 5 for 9 and Abreau hit a three run homer to make the game exciting.

Pittsburgh Steelers from 1933 to 1971 won a total of zero playoff games. The next eight years they went to the playoffs 8 times and won 4 Super Bowls. Art Rooney owned the team the whole time. The past is not the future. If you can't get excited about what's happening now with the White Sox future there's really no point in being a White Sox fan.

Isn't it possible the market has changed? Top two by a wide range this past year (total $ committed) were Machado and Harper and their $/War isnt great...and the year before it was Hosmer and Darvish and their return has been bad and in 2016 it was Cespedes and Chapman...that's a lot of money thrown at six players that have averaged less than 2 WAR per season since their big contracts. It's possible the new smart move is to vulture teams that are imploding and get guys like Yelich as the Brewers did, or Verlander like the AStros did. Of course the key to that is having a bunch of minor league assets which has been discouraging for the Sox this year (past the top five or so).

Yes that was exactly the point. Thanks for playing along.

I'm sorry I clearly can't help you. The point wasn't shopping for milk...or Baumgartner...or anyone. It is how does one go about spending a budget for the White Sox in the most effective way....one huge splash, several medium splashes or many small splashes. When I discuss how to divide the pie and you tell me that you don't like apple pie or that it's easier to cut cherry pies or that pizza isn't really a pie...and suggest I'm some sort of an idiot...it's probably time to stop arguing.

I was talking theoretically about how one spends a budget...so it seems you are missing the point by more than half. I would also rather give Rodon an extension than 5/$100 million to Bum who's an NL pitcher turning 30 with 2000 IP on his arm an ERA nearly 4.

I wasn't doing an indepth budget...I was just making a point about shopping second tier instead of the flashy titles. Make it Baumgartner for $12 and Avi for $8. However it falls...and ALL this said...if they want to drop $7/$240 for Gerrit Cole...I'm ok with that. I love their future.

I'm not saying our ONLY goal is fiscal responsibility. I'm saying if you look at risk and reward...Twins spent about $30 million/year for short term Cruz, Gonzalez, Schoop, Perez and have received tremendous about 8 WAR for it. Phillies spent $30 forever on one player that is producing about 3WAR. If the goal is to maximize WAR given a budget it seems it might be better spent $30 on four good guys this year, $30 on maybe a different four next year, $30 on a different four the year after that. Plugging in Melky, David Robertson and Adam Laroache to the 2015 Sox didn't really make sense...but same caliber of players for 2020 Sox could be perfect.

Yes but in 2015 we had two and a half stars. With Abreau, Madrigal, Anderson, Moncado, McCann, Collins, Robert, Jimenez, Gio, Cease, Lopez, Kopeck, Bummer and Colome and very soon Vaughan and Rodon...we seem way more ready to compete than at any time in 2015 (or anytime in 90 years). I think spending $10 mill on Avi, $10 million Wheeler, and bringing in 2 $5 mill solid if unspectacular relievers is better spent than a splash over pay for Bryce Harpers 3 WAR. There is no question it is sexier to sign the big name...but Poppysox was exactly right about the over pay you have to do to get the big names. We HAVE the big names just coming up now.

What's wrong with 2019 Twins? They are on pace for 98 wins. I'd love the Sox to be there next year...With a playoff rotation of Gio, Cease, Kopeck, Lopez and Rodon.

I'm really coming over to this side of the argument. Baseball is such a weird sport. In 2012 it looked like the Angels might be on the verge of something...they looked at 19 year old Mike Trout and said...wow we have to build something around this guys so they pushed all the chips in and signed Albert Pujolos for 10/$240. They had 25 year old Mark Trumbo who had hit 31 doubles and 29 homers in his rookie year, Torii Hunter who would have a 5.5 WAR in RF, and a pitching staff of Dan Haren, Ervin Santana, Zach Greinke, CJ Wilson and Jerred Weaver. They had stars all over the place...and they finished 3rd and only won 88 games (Trout had a 10.5 War that year)...I think largely because they had too many guys that were worthless. The White Sox look like they might have all the stars they need...but need to build depth. Replacing horrible with competent seems like a smart strategy...and the Sox still have a lot of horrible around.

This is the most ridiculous comment. The team has had a worse record in the last few years because THAT'S THE PLAN. I was mixed on the idea of the rebuild but many on this board were pushing hard for it...and in retrospect I think it was right and smart and the actions the team has taken can all be explained within the concept of the goal of short term pain for long term greatness (See Astros, Cubs). There was no "plan" in the Veeck years outside of...how do we pay the electric bill. That was a dark, hopeless period...this is a dark period filled with an extraordinary amount of hope.