Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (Melissa1334 @ Mar 20, 2009 -> 09:01 AM) i dont get ur sarcasm. i didnt say they were better options. ill take anderson over the other two in a second. i was asking the poster what he thought was better than anderson. I know, I was agreeing with you, and responding to the OP by answering your (assumed) rhetorical question sarcastically, not calling you dumb or anything. Sorry for the confusion. You can now hit me with your keyboard if you'd like to.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 20, 2009 -> 07:53 AM) Well, at this point, Sergio has also updated his Facebook with this infortmation as well, so its out there from his end. Unless he's lying or is being lied to, he was traded. ETA: Keep in mind too, if he was swapped for some other low level minor leaguer, this sort of thing may not hit the press at all, except as a footnote somewhere later. This is probably it. We'll find out soon enough. If someone has an account at brewerfans.net he/she should let them know so maybe they can do a little digging and find out who we got. If it's a prospect then I'm sure it's somebody not on the radar, but Sergio was still a good UT prospect so I'd like to think we got somebody worth checking up on.

QUOTE (Melissa1334 @ Mar 20, 2009 -> 07:10 AM) so what is the best one? one that features jerry owens or wise? Yes. You're absolutely correct. Speed > Defense. We should DFA Quentin and sign Joey Gathright while we're at it too. Or better yet, let's trade Buehrle. Why pay a guy all that money to "pitch" when we could sign Dave Roberts for the minimum and he could just run the damn ball to home plate?

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Mar 19, 2009 -> 10:09 PM) Tony Gwynn Jr. is out of options. The last thing we need is another untalented lefty AAA outfielder who's out of options. Oh I agree 100%. But, something about the idea strikes me as very possible. Think about it: we make a small acquisition which would represent a 5% improvement over Jerry Owens as opposed to the 200% improvement we actually need, and this player we're acquiring - who has some speed and can "do the little things" that Ozzie likes - would push Anderson back into the 4th OF role for no reason. We don't actually fill a position, we just play some musical chairs that end up hurting us even more in the future. Doesn't it sound like we've been down that road before? That's why I mentioned it. I can just imagine the bulls*** on chisox.com too: a bunch of articles chalk full of Ozzieisms growing like fungus off the big smelly turd of what would be their central theme, which is that the last time the Sox acquired a speedy "true lead-off hitter" from the Brewers they won the WS. Maybe I've been smoking too much crack, but a move like this just seems right up the Sox alley and it would continue the Sox Twilight Zone CF situation.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 19, 2009 -> 09:31 PM) we already have two Tony Gwynn Jrs, they're named Tim Raines Jr and Jerry Owens Can TGJ play CF though? If so he's better than Owens, but I agree overall, I wouldn't exactly be excited about such a move. TGJ appears to fit that grinder type of mold, i.e. he's scrappy but it doesn't matter much because he's not very good at baseball. Hopefully it's either part of a larger deal for someone good at the MLB level or it's a minor leaguer.

http://brewersfandemonium.yuku.com/topic/1...-White-Sox.html Could it be Tony Gwynn, Jr.? There's at least one BRewers fan that thinks it's a good idea, and that is a player I could see the Sox targeting to eventually replace Owens on the roster, although I don't think we'd be gaining a whole heck of a lot. There's Mike Cameron of course in a bigger deal, but that seems unlikely. I doubt the Brewers would eat salary and I doubt the Sox would take on that much salary. There would have to be some larger contracts moved in the deal, like MacDougal and Dotel as an example, with the Sox getting an arm back. Just doesn't sound very likely. If it's for an MLB player, I think it'll be TGJr.

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Mar 19, 2009 -> 12:11 PM) ? I know it was probably a quick-type mistake, just wanted to point it out so you could correct it Oh, meant to say his OBP is only about 30 points higher than his batting average consistently because he doesn't take enough walks. Thanks, I'll fix that.

Jose Lopez is not that great of a baseball player. His OBP is routinely around 30 points above his batting average which is inconsistent at best, just like his defense. He doesn't walk enough, and he doesn't have much power at all. If Brian ever hits .250 over the course of a season he'll easily match or exceed Lopez's career OBP and will dwarf his power production, along with providing much better defense at his position than Lopez does at his. If Anderson and Lopez were both CF, I'd take Anderson over him. If Anderson and Lopez were both 2B I'd start Chris Getz. I have no idea what it is about Lopez's mediocre defense and career .271/.303/.398 line coming through everyday playing time that is supposed to make him so much better than Anderson and his career .221/.277/.379 line, almost half of which is coming from irregular AB off the bench. There was also a comment about Brian not being able to hit more than 15 HR over a full season. Why did he hit 8 off the bench last year in 181 AB then? And don't respond with the easy "he was facing lefties" crap, because he hit righties coming up through the minors and it's not like he couldn't hit them if he had a chance to get comfortable and play every day. In fact, over his career he's hit .228 against RHP vs. only .212 against lefties, and the SLG% is only slightly favoring lefties, at .373 against RHP vs. .386 against LHP. Also, if you've ever actually watched Brian play and if you've actually seen his home runs, they're not Ray Durham-esque cheapies. He hits some bombs. And if he makes more contact, he'll hit more of them. His numbers last year, without an increase in batting average, would pencil out to about 23-25 HR in a full seasons worth of AB. Jose Lopez's career high is 17 which came last year in 644 AB. If Brian got that many AB he could hit 30 even with his career batting average remaining the same. And lastly about Nick Swisher, why was Swisher traded? Because he sucks in CF and outside of his career year in Oakland he can't be counted on to produce better than league average or slightly above it for a corner OF or 1B. Nick's career .244/.354/.451 line at $22M guaranteed through 2011 looks at lot worse in an OF corner or at 1B than Brian's line does in CF at the league minimum. So, I'd take Anderson over Swisher too. At least he'll give me defense, and if he doesn't up his average to the .250+ range, and if he doesn't also up his OBP into the .310+ range, I'll be happy to keep him as a 4th OF until I have to release him for making too much money through the arbitration process.

LMAO he does! Lemme alone, Beav, Ma says I gotta work on my cutter!

Didn't know Thome was having back spasms. If that's an issue he'll probably hit under .100 in April. Get well, Jimmy.

QUOTE (bschmaranz @ Mar 18, 2009 -> 11:10 AM) Ward, I think you were a little too hard on the Beaver last night. Maybe we should start calling Clayton "the Beav" That would be an awesome nickname. I'm for it.

QUOTE (bschmaranz @ Mar 18, 2009 -> 11:03 AM) Neat? Gee golly, CR sure is swell. Gosh Wally, why do you have to be such a meanie?

QUOTE (BearSox @ Mar 17, 2009 -> 09:31 PM) It's looking more and more like Betemit will be the backup SS (shudders). Man, how awesome would it have been if Lillibridge showed some ability to hit this spring. He could have been a real good option off the bench to platoon at 2B vs. lefties and backup at SS, CF, and LF. Oh well, he will be the starting SS for Charlotte. I'm assuming the bench will look something like: C Corky Miller INF Betemit 1B/OF Kroeger OF Anderson It doesn't look like Lilli is going to make the team with the way he's hitting, but I'd take defense at SS over offense off the bench any day of the week. Betemit has no business being in the middle of the infield. Hopefully if Getz or Nix end up on the bench they can at least make the plays hit right at them.

It seems Nix might have done all he needed to do this spring to get a real shot at playing time in MLB. The Sox sound impressed with him, and they can afford to keep him on the 40-man while he's injured (if he's injured still or rehabbing as the season starts). From there, he's got a shot at a bench job because I doubt the Sox would let him hit waivers with them having a rookie 2B no matter what. The only way Nix is out of the organization is if Beckham becomes the everyday starter at 2B with Getz moving to the bench. With Beckham, he's your backup SS and can play there with Getz starting at 2B when Alexei needs a day off. And even then, Nix would have be injured through the rest of ST and/or Getz would have to beat him out on top of that. Getz has minor league options left, so there should be no problem sending him down to Charlotte as insurance with an eye on calling him up in May or June if somebody goes down or if one of Nix/Beckham isn't getting it done.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 17, 2009 -> 05:53 PM) With that .315 OBP? and 165 k's? There's a reason the D-Backs stopped having him lead off, he was a disaster at leadoff. Last year, Chris Young had 625 at bats. In his career, Brian Anderson has 597 at bats, including his really rough stint his first few months which probably wouldn't represent his average performance now. In those 597 at bats, Anderson has 18 home runs, 76 runs scored, 62 RBI, has 10 steals, 154k, and a handful fewer walks. If I did the data massaging to exclude April, May, and June of 06 when he was really bad, his numbers would get even better. Chris Young and Brian Anderson right now are so close to the same player it's really not funny. Young may well still have substantial upside. Frankly, so may Anderson. And quite simply, for both of them it will come down to whether or not they can cut down on the strikeouts. They have the same basic flaw. +1 Brian is infinitely capable of putting up the same lines Chris Young can with the biggest difference being that Young will steal more bases under a manager like Ozzie. The only reason Brian gets ragged on here is because people don't think he can put up numbers *better* than Chris Young has. And what makes it so absurd is the idea that there are probably fans who think Chris Young is a far better player than Brian is, and that Owens and Wise are far better hitters than Brian as well. Well, would anyone say Dewayne Wise is better than Chris Young? Would anyone say Jerry Owens is better than Chris Young? Probably not. Chris Young is a product of the old days of the Sox system the past few years that, hopefully, are never to return again. Chris Young was a very exciting prospect, as was Fautino De los Santos and Gio Gonzalez. People go crazy about these guys on Sox fan forums because they, for some reason, cannot understand that even though they are/were very good prospects with the potential to do some very nice things at the Major League level, there ARE in fact lots of other prospects in baseball that fit the same description, AND in order to get something good in trade, you have to either surrender something good in return, or surrender something that is not good now but has the potential to be very good in the future. That's how this thing works. Hopefully in the future, when we trade 'spects like Young, DLS, and Gio, we will have enough depth in our farm that we'll be trading from a surplus instead of dealing the only chips we've got.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 17, 2009 -> 06:26 PM) While I don't think its time yet to make final decisions, I do think I'd make these two: --give Poreda one more start, and then send him to minor league camp, and to AAA, to start there and work on those breakers --Send Russell to minor league camp - its not just his numbers, his delivery is all over the place. He needs more seasoning in AAA. That reduces the list from 8 to 6, and they can get more innings. I want Poreda starting in the minors too, but I'd keep him in MLB camp. I'd want him to go down confident in himself and believing he's close to making the team. I'd save him for the last round of cuts actually. The other guys are going to play themselves out of jobs well before the last few days of ST. I'd send Russell down too. I'd send Broadway down as well, and I'd be close on Wassermann. I like Wassermann a lot and think he can be a good righty specialist in the Majors, but it doesn't appear Ozzie wants to groom him specifically for that role; he appears to want Ehren as a LR if he's going to make the team. So, I'd send him down and then try to trade him once he's posting an ERA under 2.00 with virtually no walks and a minuscule WHIP in Charlotte again. MacDougal would be a guy I'd want to make the team. Hopefully he has a nice ST and a few good outings with the big club, then maybe some team will want him for a non-prospect if the Sox eat $1M this year and cover the buyout. Maybe it sounds strange to think of anyone wanting MacDougal for any price, and maybe it sounds strange to imagine anyone being deceived by a quality run from the guy, but the guy has the exact type of arm that makes general managers do stupid things.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Mar 16, 2009 -> 11:41 PM) Wow, this didn't take as long as I thought it would. PHOENIX (MCT) -- You can’t hit the ball with the bat on your shoulder. Sure, Ken Williams knew he was taking a risk when he traded Chris Young to the Arizona Diamondbacks two years ago. He was living dangerously, and he knew it, but he couldn’t foresee how little impact Javier Vazquez would have on the White Sox. Nor could he know that Brian Anderson would suffer an allergic reaction to big-league pitching. Still, in the spring of 2006, when he was still dreaming of a long run atop the American League, Williams acknowledged the risks he was taking in regularly trading young talent for known quantities like Vazquez. “One of these deals is going to come back to haunt us,” Williams said during a talk at the Sox’s Tucson minor-league complex. “It’s part of the price that we pay to try to win on a consistent basis, not just every now and then. I know that’s going to happen. There’s going to be a guy who shows up in the ESPN highlights all the time, making me get sick to my stomach. Chris could be that guy. He’s a really good player, but not the only one we’ve got.” http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/08...c0357539409.prt The bold is pretty cut and dry to me. Kenny and his people messed up. It happens. Just recognize it and move on. If a .243/.306/.451 career line is making Kenny Williams sick to his stomach, then he should sit down, take a deep breath, and relax, because that guy is playing in Arizona. Minus the SB, that line is very attainable for Brian in regular playing time, who hit .232/.272/.436 off the bench last year.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Mar 16, 2009 -> 11:35 PM) C'mon, KP. Do you really believe the expectation for Brian was that as long as he played solid defense that he could hit .175-.200 and it would be acceptable? That's unacceptable for a team coming off a title. The Sox thought they were dealing from a position of strength. I clearly remember Kenny stating that one of the reasons he felt so confident in trading Rowand/Young was because they felt BA was ready. I'll look for quotes later. Walker was quoted in story about Brian last ST, saying basically that the Sox knew he had a ton of work to do on his swing, and they knew he wasn't going to be able to hit MLB pitching, but they decided not to do anything about it. I guess they wanted him to go with it on his own and then make adjustments later. Then there were stories that said Anderson wasn't very receptive towards making changes to his swing, and supposedly it was that among other things that got him in the doghouse. The problem is, if you think a kid can't hit MLB pitching, but you expect you CFers to hit MLB pitching, then DON'T bring the damn kid up. Make him work on things in the minor leagues. This "we won't fix anything until the player struggles" garbage doesn't always work. It doesn't work with players like Brian who have gotten by throughout their careers on talent and tools alone. Some players are not going to fail AT ALL until they reach a level where they can no longer just get by on natural ability. The Sox knew what they were getting into without a doubt, because they even admitted it. As for Kenny's comments, all I can remember hearing was the "just give us defense, that's all we ask" stuff. Even if he told the media that he was ready to hit in the bigs, which I doubt he did, but even if he did say that, then he'd have to be blind to not see Brian's inability to catch up to fastballs. If you can't hit a good fastball in the majors then you just can't hit. Whatever Kenny said, the man knew what he was doing. He thought we have enough offense to cover an offensive hole in CF, so he allocated his funds to other areas. He was right; all Kenny actually got wrong that season was the bullpen. It was Ozzie BTW that decided to bench Anderson and put Mack-o-whack out there, not Kenny. And obviously Kenny is going to back his manager.

I'd want to know who the hell is managing the game and why one of these players are batting in that situation. Maybe this could happen if it's the bottom of the 17th on the last day of the season after the rosters have expanded. If it did, I'd rather have it be Lillibridge because at least he's not Jerry Owens.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Mar 16, 2009 -> 11:10 PM) I get what he's saying. And what I'm saying is that I don't have to wait to see if Young becomes Grady Sizemore the sequel to determine if the trade was a bad one. It turned bad the minute Kenny and co determined that Brian Anderson was ready to take over in 2006. Which obviously wasn't anywhere near the case. The Javy trade was fair value for both sides and seemed like a great move to run out possibly the best rotation in baseball at the time. Why aren't you ragging on the Thome deal then? That's the deal that sent Rowand out of here and put Anderson in CF. Young wouldn't have made this team until the 2007 season anyway. The Javy trade has nothing to do with the Sox making a poor decision starting Brian every day. In fact, they never said he was ready, I believe they have always said the opposite. They said going into the season that all Brian had to do was play D and whatever he could contribute offensively would have been a bonus. But guess what? They threw him under the bus by I believe mid-May. And if you look at the potency of the lineup of the '06 squad, Anderson was NEVER a reason to complain. The problem with that team was the pitching, most notably the front of the bullpen. All Brian did out there was help the pitching, which was the biggest weakness on the team. Ozzie Guillen started Rob Mackowiak that season because Ozzie is prone to stupid baseball decisions. When you can't pitch, the last thing you do is weaken your defense for more offense.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Mar 16, 2009 -> 10:36 PM) And what I'm saying is that we've had one of the worst CF situations in all of baseball the last 3 years. And our only options currently are Jerry Owens, Dewayne Wise and Brian Anderson. So that right there, regardless of the fact that Jerry Owens hasn't lived up to the "hype", is why the trade can be deemed a bad one. I have to disagree. The Javy deal was one of the main reasons the Sox were favorites for the Series in '06. That didn't work out, but the trade was a no-brainer at the time. A proven veteran 200+ IP per season #3 pitcher in his prime for a toolsy but undisciplined young AA CF, coming off a WS Championship season? Yeah, I'd do that 10 times out of 10. Besides, the package we got back from Javy is easily worth Chris Young trade value-wise IMO. So it's not like we got hosed talent-wise like the first Swisher deal. As far as our CF situation, that is our GM's fault, our manager's fault, our scouting department's fault, and our player development department's fault. Anderson, by the admission of the GM, manager, and hitting coach, was NOT ready to hit MLB pitching in '06. The Sox FO knew that and went with it anyway. Then in '07 after Anderson rightfully won the CF job they went with Erstad. Had the situation been handled better the Sox might have a much better grasp on Anderson's ability. BA's injuries also didn't help, but the Sox mismanagement of him hurt them more than anything. And furthermore, look at all the talent the Sox traded to "fill" CF since that point: Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez, Fautino De Los Santos, Nick Masset, Danny Richar (who the Sox dealt Cunningham for). Those five guys together could have easily netted a better CF option than Nick Swisher and a half season of an injured Junior. These two trades have a lot more to do with the Sox current CF situation than the Javy deal does. If you look at where we are though, we should consider ourselves blessed with our CF situation. Luckily Rowand wanted 5 years guaranteed. Luckily Fukudome wanted to go to the Cubs. Luckily the Sox wouldn't negotiate with Borass regarding Andruw Jones. Luckily the Angels offered a s***load of money to Torii Hunter. And finally, we're lucky Jordan Danks fell to the 7th round of the draft and the Sox picked him up. Realistically, the CF situation is not that hard to fix considering the amount of money that will be coming off the books over the next two years in addition to the added depth of our farm. The lead-off situation is different, and hopefully D2 will solve that by sometime in 2011. Until then, Anderson's defense is a plus; his offense is a minus but with the potential to improve to at least average or near it. I said this in 2006 and I'll say it again: if we're looking at a 2nd place finish or lower, there are going to be a LOT more pressing issues on this team than Brian Anderson's bat at the bottom of the lineup.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Mar 16, 2009 -> 09:32 AM) Pujols is going to get dirty. Riske-White-Mann-Witt-Nomo-Cash-Putz-Happ-Pie-Wang-Nenn-Brown-Hooker-Pujols-Beech-Hines-Dempster

QUOTE (zenryan @ Mar 16, 2009 -> 08:27 PM) Tyson-Pounds-Robins-Givens-Kuntz-Day-van Every-Knight. This one rules.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 16, 2009 -> 06:38 PM) Kurt Warner Faulked Isaac Bruce in his ass-Holt Gay-Mench-Hood-Goes-Choo-Church-Choo-Getz-Reed-Bourne-Hassell-Christian, Biggs-McMahon-Hinske-HeHateMe-Romo-Wood-Smoker

Here are a couple: Danks-Smoker-Getz-Stone-Putz-Kaat-Suppan-Hamburger Guillen-Getz-Wise-Sax-Owens