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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 01:03 PM) No, last year we could have waited on these guys to see if an improved deal would come along. We weren't forced to move the guys, at the worst they were dead losses. Frankly, it was starting to look like the market for Dunn could actually improve if we didn't show everyone our cards already. I know. I'm not sure what else to say other than to reiterate my last post. Also, the only thing Hahn needs to do to regain his leverage in trading Dunn is show that he's willing to go into the season with a poorly constructed bench. Which, it seems like he's willing to do. You can;t call someone's bluff if there's no bluff being made.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 01:04 PM) Also, now is a time to chime in that PH is also a need. There was absolutely no one worthwhile to grab a bat in the most intense late inning situations And now there is. But at what cost? Nearly every team in the league has moved to utilizing the DH as a way to utilize depth effectively. The early innovators of this (A's, Rays) have seen great success, and there are so few monster DH bats left in the game. That roster spot is valuable -- especially if it allows some younger guys to get the PT they need.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 12:57 PM) And now that everyone knows the White Sox have themselves a mess of a roster, they can drop anything they'd have been willing to offer. If you're playing cards and you reveal your cards to everyone else when they don't have to...that sort of hurts your ability to bet. Don't get me wrong -- I don't think this is a good move. I'm just saying that it might not be as big a deal as it seems now. Looking at 25 man roster configurations, for example, is a futile exercise on Dec 4th.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 12:53 PM) And now we're in a position where any team we're negotiating with has the upper hand because they know the White Sox have foolishly created a logjam. Fortunately, the guys we need to move are all bad players whose contracts need to be dumped anyway.

Also, remember that Leury Garcia can play CF. He's the ultimate super-sub. It would make a lot more sense to carry him than it would to carry Danks.

Let's wait and see what other moves the Sox make before concluding that this is a disaster. Remember, we haven't even hit the Winter meetings yet. There's plenty of time to clear these logjams and plenty of reasons to do so.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 08:14 PM) Angry hippos are dangerous. Is the picture getting any clearer for you now on the Sox plans this offseason ? $7m per year is paying him to be less than a 2WAR player -- who wouldn't take the over on that? Talk an opportunity to solidify the C position for several years at almost no risk... I thought the plan was to make long-term upgrades, this feels like a major missed opportunity.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 06:52 PM) Well, the Rockies just traded Fowler to Houston for an outfielder Brandon Barnes and a pitcher Jordan Lyles. Not much. I thought Fowler had more value than that. Of course, the two headed GM for the Rox are not the brightest, to put it mildly. Sigh. f***.

Ok, now that I found out the Sox let Salta go to FLA for 3/21, I'm going to be PISSED if we give up talent to get freaking Lobaton. Holy s***.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 07:07 PM) Mildly surprised that Salty went at that price and the Sox didn't get him. It either means they didn't like him or they have no money to spend. This. Holy s***, how did we not outbid 3/$21? This makes me angry.

Sorry guys =\

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 03:29 PM) That's a reference. If it isn't meant for W-L maybe you should mention it when someone says "his war was 2.0, the Sox catchers was -1.0, the Sox wouldn't have won 63 games, they would have won 66. I am not the one misusing it. I never said it wasn't useful. In fact, just the opposite. It is being misused in a big way, and a few of the people who misuse it know better, but do it anyway to try to make a point. I agree with everything you just said -- I just don't see how the old "cancel the playoffs and give a WAR trophy" strawman is a useful illustration. But I see what you meant by it now.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 03:21 PM) Nothing to worry about. Salty is going to Miami. VERY interesting... You'd have to figure Miami is only interested if he was a bargain, thus making you wonder why we didn't get involved further.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 02:52 PM) I really think it's ridiculous that people say a guy has a 2.0 bWAR so if he replaced a 0.0 bWAR the team would have won 2 more games. If the number is so accurate, the final standings would perfectly reflect every team's collective bWARs, correct? I think they should just cancel the playoffs, forget about standings and just hand out a bWAR trophy at the end of the year. Sabermetrics is a big part of baseball, but to think these numbers are the end all is ridiculous. People like to mention xFIP for pitchers. Did you know Gavin Floyd had a better career xFIP than Mark Buehrle? Who would you rather have on the mound? You are CONSTANTLY deriding these metrics by using them in a context for which they are NOT meant to be used. These numbers are only inaccurate if you insist on asking them to do things they are not designed to do. They are NOT "the end all," whatever that even means, and absolutely nobody is claiming otherwise. The reason no one has EVER suggested that we "cancel the playoffs and give a WAR trophy" is because that's totally ridiculous. WAR exists in order to allow us to try to compare the sum of different players' contributions under a common frame of reference -- and that is EXACTLY how lasttrip just used it, and it lended an interesting insight to the discussion. It was never meant to be able to predict team W-L records or to imply that adding X player will add exactly Y wins to a team. It is a metric that STRIPS CONTEXT and it would therefore be ridiculous to expect it to hold up when context is introduced. It gives us a frame of reference, DA. That's it. Please stop pretending it's not useful just because it can be misapplied.

QUOTE (Baron @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 02:38 PM) He said nothing about this being part of the 3 way trade in the first place QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 02:43 PM) I never said he did? How about you check the thread title that holds the misinformation? Hey dudes, it says it on MLBTR -- I just figured you would all like to know. Does the question mark in the title not imply uncertainty?

Anyone seeing anything else on Twitter to confirm this? Nothing else showing up on MLBTR

As an aside, it appears the Saltalamacchia market is shrinking FAST

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 02:12 PM) It would be separate to the Hanigan deal. Does seem weird. That would make it a FOUR team deal. And no talks about the WS contributing anything so far. Strangely, it appears as though the Rays will be assuming almost all of Bell's salary, which is, needless to say, VERY not like the Rays. Would be interesting if the Rays are sending Lobaton to us in exchange for cash to pay Bell.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/rays...an-hanigan.html 2:01pm: Jose Lobaton could be going to the White Sox in the deal, Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times (via Twitter) hears.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 02:02 PM) I'm not trolling, I'm very angry that a team with Bill James as an adviser (admitted the best sabes talent evaluator) recognizes the value of an AJP and people on this board who actually got a WS title in large part because of AJP think Salty is a better option. Geez. I get the feeling some think AJ is some old hack who can't play, when he WAS A MAJOR LOSS to our team last season. Greg, his talent has nothing to do with it at all. We all like AJ, he's a decent player -- but our team blows and we needmore than a stopgap solution at C. The Red Sox, on the other hand, JUST won the world series and needed to replace a lefty platoon catcher to compete again next year. The deal makes sense for them, not us -- and it has nothing to do with disagreeing on AJ having value.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 09:12 AM) By making sure that when we go into next offseason we have exactly the same problem as we have now, Phegley and Flowers who are too good for AAA but who haven't produced in long stints in the big leagues. Except Flowers is a year more expensive. Exactly! Let's sort this Phegley/Flowers issue out now instead of next year, where I'm hoping we'll be a lot closer to contention.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2013 -> 08:24 AM) Weird is starting a thread about Lou Marson Yeah, that was weird. I was drunk. But seriously, I would rather have Marson than AJ. Because Marson is 27 and a helluva defender, apparently.

This is great news. No idea why you guys wanted to settle for a one year stopgap before the Winter Meetings even start. To me, that is the much "weirder" part of the fanbase.

Oh, sorry. I could have sworn he was a lefty. Oh well.

Guys, if he wasn't f***ed up, there's no way in hell they'd have non-tendered him to save a million freakin dollars.