The Ultimate Champion

If you remade that list as the worst deals with the best chances of turning around, then Danks would rank highly in a good way IMO. Hahn said he thinks Danks learned to be more of a pitcher last year and said he was looking forward to Danks' season because even if he's not 100% back to form, the things Danks learned last year should help him collect results regardless.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 12, 2014 -> 07:07 PM) Dunn and De Aza are both problems. DeAza has been a 2.0, 2.9, 1.7 oWAR player the last 3 years and his defense outside of last season has at least been passable. He's only making a little over $4M and is under control for 2 years, and is a lefty bat. He actually has *trade value* which is a good thing, not a bad thing. The Sox actually chose to tender him a contract when they didn't have to, and could get out of his contract in a heartbeat if they wanted to and still pick up a prospect, even if it's not an exciting one. And none of that is true for Dunn.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 12, 2014 -> 07:22 PM) No This would be the time to trade him realizing that it's a complete and utter fluke, and the odds of him matching that production ever again are ridiculously small. Giving way Viciedo at that time would just compound the problem. This is exactly what the Sox should be trying to achieve this year with Dunn, Keppinger and De Aza and Ramirez. Dress them up, hope they get hot, and then dump them. Sell high, not low. It's not happening anyway. DeAza isn't the type of player to hit .300 and go 25-25. If he was that kind of player then you'd keep him, not trade him.

Are the Dodgers going to give $25M to a player who may become a poor man's Leury Garcia? If so, holy s***. Dumb.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 12, 2014 -> 12:56 PM) This is the scenario in which you trade De Aza. Sell high. lol If that actually happened it would make DeAza an elite offensive contributor to a ballclub especially when comparing what his defense in LF would be to the average LFer. So then you would want to keep him, not dump him off for players who would be unlikely to ever match that production. But it's not happening with DeAza. He's still an underrated player though who can do a few different things on the field, and for that reason he needs to be the everyday starting LF with Viciedo the everyday starting DH and Dunn somewhere on the darkside of the moon where there are only 2 dimensions & his 1 dimensional game doesn't seem nearly as poor.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 09:43 PM) WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT ERVIN f***ING SANTANA Because you guys still aren't listening! You know you love it. Watch him sign here, it's gonna be awesome.

QUOTE (Baron @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 09:45 PM) Because the knuckleheads that are arguing to sign him didnt get to ramp up the assumption machine today. All we do is post facts, stats, and the truth. Welcome to Hatersville, USA Population: yall

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 09:21 PM) Great, another thread ruined by the Stiffies For Santana crowd. I like that one but TBH I'd prefer we be known as the Friends of Ervin Santana, or F.O.E.S.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 08:45 PM) My initial statement was a joke, but I proved that Santana only kills us because our offense sucks. OK. And I proved that his performance is comparable to what the Sox typically expect and get out of their pitching staffs on an overall basis and his performance is also comparable to what we've generally been getting out of the mid and back of our rotation over the last several years. Again: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/santaer01.shtml He has had one bad year in the last 4 total seasons. To most people that's a positive trend and his 2013 season was a rebound to *normalcy* following more of uncharacteristic season, but to HaterTalk.com his 2012 was normal and all his good years don't count. I also will post another stat here: .234/.306/.402/.708, which is the White Sox career line against Santana (440 PA) over what amounts to a 9 year career. Which of course goes beyond the projected 2014 offense.

BTW anyone think that when we DFA Dunn it'll be on fireworks night? It might actually be worth hanging onto him for a few games just to do it that way. Sox fans in attendance will get the news immediately after the game & then as the news spreads and fans begin to rejoice the fireworks show will begin.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 07:35 PM) It's not that he's bad, it's that 1. Our offense sucks 2. He's one of the most inconsistent pitchers ever. Multiple times he's gone from a 5 ERA to a 3 year-to-year, and he's due for a 5.0something this season. So basically what your saying is that your initial statement about Santana was bulls***. Good. Nothing personal Mr. Abreu, I'm very happy about your addition to the lineup, but I find it necessary to make sure people get the story straight on Santana. He's a quality pitcher overall. Yes, he's inconsistent and can be maddening. He's much like Floyd which I've said a zillion times on this board, Javy too, but for the price he may be asking, and given our track record with those kinds of players, I think he's a nice fit for the team. EJax, Gavin, and Javy all had some nice years here under Coop. You can even maybe add Garland to that list who Sox fans also found maddening for a time until about 2004 IIRC when he first pitched under Ozzie and hit the 200IP mark or right around there. So basically he's not "due" for a 5ish ERA if he's healthy and in a comfortable situation, he may actually be "due" for another pretty good season which he has had a few of during his career. Again, if the price is right, there's no good reason not to do it. Our best hope is a rehabbing Paulino. Santana adds a lot of depth and let's say both he and Danks have good seasons here next year, what kind of leverage does that give Hahn over the offseason with Beck presumably knocking on the door? *Edit: I'll add Jose Contreras to my list here, too. Count had a lot more raw ability and talent than most guys, including better stuff than Ervin, but my god was that man a mess mentally when he got here. Coop fixed 'em.

So anyway I guess the point is who the f*** cares & why does it matter? It's all gossip anyway. I doubt a team with a gay player would want the extra attention anyway.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 06:33 PM) Brady Anderson was gay? I just checked google and yes, it appears there is a message board listing all gay players including some posters claiming to have had gay affairs. http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/26603?forumpage=1 All I want to know is that if someone who is gay is in the Sox locker room who does the "handling" heh hehe hehehhehe (Ross Gload witch laugh) http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/26603?forumpage=2 ClassyBoy04 thinks Brian Urlacher is gay! I believe it, football sucks.

Brady Anderson was gay? I just checked google and yes, it appears there is a message board listing all gay players including some posters claiming to have had gay affairs. http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/26603?forumpage=1 All I want to know is that if someone who is gay is in the Sox locker room who does the "handling" heh hehe hehehhehe (Ross Gload witch laugh)

QUOTE (chisoxfan310 @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 05:46 PM) I think Abreu will struggle a bit the first two months but take off when summer hits Cubans hate the cold.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 11, 2014 -> 05:24 PM) You're right, we'll hit him harder than any other pitcher. Hah His balls With the our mouths of our offense Hitters vs. Santana during his career: .253/.315/.421/.736 White Sox (below) vs. Santana during his career: .223/.282/.419/.701 BATTER AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS Gordon Beckham 26 5 1 0 3 6 3 6 .192 .276 .577 .853 Alejandro De Aza 16 4 1 0 1 2 0 7 .250 .250 .500 .750 Adam Dunn 15 3 0 0 1 1 3 4 .200 .333 .400 .733 Tyler Flowers 5 2 0 0 1 1 0 3 .400 .400 1.000 1.400 Avisail Garcia 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 .667 .667 .667 1.333 Conor Gillaspie 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000 Jeff Keppinger 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .000 .000 .000 .000 Paul Konerko 40 8 3 0 0 5 3 10 .200 .277 .275 .552 Josh Phegley 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .000 .000 .000 .000 Alexei Ramirez 27 8 0 0 1 2 1 2 .296 .321 .407 .729 Dayan Viciedo 9 1 0 0 1 2 1 3 .111 .200 .444 .644 Totals 148 33 5 0 8 19 11 38 .223 .282 .419 .701 2013 Sox offense: .249/.302/.378/.680 2012 Sox offense: .255/.318/.422/.740 2011 Sox offense: .252/.319/.388/.706 2010 Sox offense: .268/.332/.420/.752 Maybe if the Sox have an offense like 2010 or 2012 they could do something against him. Probably not because the 2014 offense is going to blow. Let's compare Santana's career line vs. opponents of .253/.315/.421/.736 to Sox team pitching stats now: 2013 Sox pitching vs. opponents: .256/.322/.408/.730 2012 Sox pitching vs. opponents: .250/.319/.405/.724 2011 Sox pitching vs. opponents: .261/.317/.397/.714 2010 Sox pitching vs. opponents: .264/.325/.395/.720 Let's compare now to the career lines of the main pitchers the Sox have run out over the last 4 seasons: Edwin Jackson: .272/.339/.429/.767 Chris Sale: .226/.285/.353/.638 Jose Quintana: .258/.313/.406/.719 Gavin Floyd: .260/.326/.422/.748 John Danks: .259/.318/.421/.739 Jake Peavy: .234/.295/.378/.674 Dylan Axelrod: .302/.363/.489/.852 Philip Humber: .271/.333/.440/.773 Hector Santiago: .230/.335/.374/.710 Mark Buehrle: .276/.324/.430/.754 So yeah Santana is soooooo much worse than our average pitching staff performances & soooooo unlike the majority of what we've run out at least for the last 4 years that he's just gonna get crushed by this monstrous derpa derpa derpa offense we're all expecting to come bursting out of the gate yeah f***in right I call bulls***. You guys are sucking wind here and you're not even 60 yards from the starting point you've got a long way to go with your bulls*** if you want to get to the finish line of any argument that has Ervin Santana as a substandard pitcher.

My predictions: Avisail will end up looking like the best/most complete position player. Abreu will look elite at times, end with decent numbers for a slugger, but overall will impress. The contract won't look out of sight. Davidson will not break with the team, will K a lot when he gets here, and will end 2014 almost as much of an uncertainty as he is now. But still part of the picture. Eaton will impress when he's on the field. He'll hit the DL at least once and will constantly battle little injuries. Johnson will hit a wall mid-season but finish strong. Will look like a 3/4 in 2015. Gillaspie if he gets playing time will continue to improve. I think we might get some big things out of Viciedo this year. Adam Dunn will continue to suck my ass. Q will be awesome.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 9, 2014 -> 10:45 PM) I'd take Delgado in a heartbeat. Sadly, it'd likely cost you Jones who can net much more at the deadline. I'd offer up Lindstrom/Petricka/Molina for him. De Aza as well if they'd take De Aza/need a fourth OF (no idea if they do). Yeah I have too much confidence in Jones' ability as a closer to trade him now. Let him rack up saves for a season and then shop him over the offseason. Ideally, Jones racks up saves this year, posts nice peripherals, gets a team-friendly contract, then shortly after is traded for a high-quality position player or SP prospect, with Webb taking over and another young guy stepping into Webb's former role. Rinse & repeat.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:32 PM) Gavin Floyd made 5 starts for the White Sox while Rick Hahn was the GM. Not sure why you're using that against him. He wouldn't have gotten a real big return for him anyways. I was also perfectly fine with them just giving Rios up, so getting back a guy like Garcia for him was a win. I was responding to the ludicrous idea that Hahn gets value out of guys & KW didn't. Hahn sat on Floyd his entire first offseason and although that isn't some tremendous setback for the organization it does represent a notable mistake during Hahn's brief tenure as GM. The process is still very similar to the way things were, just with the same people doing different things, and this comes from both KW and Hahn. KW was the guy talking to agents & GMs, facilitating things, Hahn was a contract guy apparently as well as a type of analyst who was involved in gathering information, and Buddy Bell was the good baseball man. Now, Kenny is more into the scouting area which plays more to his strengths (and the farm should improve) while Hahn, a much better communicator publicly, is dealing with the media, facilitating the deals, etc. and doing contract stuff. I'm sure Hahn probably delegates some of the analysis type of stuff now & focuses on more GM-types of things like budgets and so on. Buddy Bell is still a good baseball man also, he just gets paid more for it. All in all things haven't changed much & Hahn was always involved. It seems like this is a much better format for the organization though, no doubt.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 01:04 PM) DA offers pretty compelling examples of our horrendous evaluation of prospects over the years. I did't realize it was that bad. Hopefully, that changes. Money can't overcome poor evaluation. When you look at our bust rate with high picks over the years it's horrendous period. Kenny built a top-farm system as its director & then went out and traded pieces of it for value. Which is good because the best player IIRC he gave up out of that bunch was Kip Wells. Had we kept all those guys things would have really gotten bad. I think the primary issues though are just about s***ty developmental philosophies which make everything look so bad. No matter how much people want to hate, we *did* take a ton of very talented players in the early rounds of the draft over the last couple decades, and we have very little to show for it. Hearing Greg Walker & Hawk in the booth (and I'm sure others too) repeat the line about how you can't ask a player to change something until he fails and proves he needs it is the most ridiculous line of thinking you could ever apply to any process that is called "developmental." It's like, "Let's let the kid keep swearing and throwing things and bullying other kids until someone finally kicks his ass on the playground, then we'll get him the discipline he needs so that he'll grow up to be a proper adult." I mean just apply that philosophy to anything and it sounds horrendously dense.

In his interview on the Score's website Kenny says that starting with the Sale draft and on he's been getting out and doing a lot more scouting whereas in the past he had been focused on the other things & hadn't gotten out much. He personally scouted Zapata, personally sought out more info on Tanaka (whatever that means), personally scouted Abreu, and one would assume if his statements are true that he had a lot of input on the early selections in our last 4 drafts and our most recent high $$$ INTL signings. Also he probably had a lot of input on Davidson & Eaton. So if he says he could have had a better system if he wanted, maybe he means that if he focused more on the draft and spent more in those areas on players he personally scouted then the results would have been better. And I would agree with that. So maybe let's judge him on his scouting efforts during the period of time he's been back in that role? If the argument is that he should have been more involved in the prior drafts than he was and/or should have had more or better people running things, or should have spent more $$$ on amateurs, then I'd have to agree with it. But Kenny making poor draft choices? If he's not really involved there how can they be "his" choices? They're just moves he signed off on, and that's more about trusting others too much and not having the proper checks and balances in place. You have to draw a line there logically because if Kenny is responsible for picks like Whisler then the last place he needs to be is in a scouting role.

QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 12:45 PM) Kenny overvalues his major league acquisitions. He has never done well cashing out, and I can see him risking a decent return to wait til winter. Hahn understood the need to move fast. And he was smart playing off Boston's and Texas' desperation after biogenesis LOL Kenny committed rape in the second Freddy deal and in the McCarthy deal. Hahn held onto Gavin Floyd until he got hurt & lost all value. And the Peavy return was quality for what Peavy was but this wasn't the "haul" type on paper, far from it. And Texas? Really? Rios was a salary dump for Abreu money. They had a dollar and only took fifty cents back.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 11:56 AM) This is the time you catch yourself wondering what ole Hawkeroo was talking about when he said Hahn had a couple big things brewing When did he say that? And was this just his opinion or something? I'm not sure Hahn would be involving Hawk on anything "big" but I could see him saying something like "we're trying to trade Dunn and Keppinger" or "we need to clear up some roster room."

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 10:37 AM) Yeah but he was the General Manager. Just like any other sort of manager, one of his main responsibilities is holding his team accountable for performance and correcting performance as need be. If he doesn't performance manage the INTL talent team, it's ultimately on him. That's his job. JR's job is to make sure KW does HIS job...so if you're arguing that it's a system-wide issue, you're really saying that KW didn't get enough pressure from above. Yes & I agree. However there's a lot involved in that job & you *do* need to delegate a ton. What you don't need to do is forget about the reviews, forget about checking in on the people you're in charge of, etc. And I definitely see this as having come from JR who famously let this thing become the Ozzie Show for a good couple years when the proper decision was one KW was already dying to make but couldn't. So really it's an organization thing, which is much worse than one guy, but hopefully things have changed a lot.

BTW I think I'm going to run down to the thrift store and buy me a nice 1978 style brown suit, have it dry cleaned, then show up to ST with a corncob pipe in my mouth and approach the Sox brass introducing myself as "a good baseball man" and just overwhelm them with old crusty baseball cliches until they decide to hire me. Every time some s***ty OF swings through a 93mph fastball I'll hit them with something that makes them feel optimistic, eventually they won't have any other option.