LowerCaseRepublican

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 7, 2005 -> 09:20 PM) First of all if you have issues with the sentences that these convicted soldiers recieved then dont cry to me about it. Join the military and attempt to change it from within. Secondly. How do you know what intelligence was gathered from detainees in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo when the government hasn't said what was gathered from such interrogations? Whether they gave up vital information under duress or kept screaming "GOD IS GREAT" the whole time will not be known anytime soon by any of us. To add to this point. If one innocent person was spared getting a car bomb drove up his ass or one U.S. soldier's life was spared by information garnered from these interrogations , and I'll bet you my bottom dollar that a lot more than 1 life was spared this way, then it's all worth it to me. Thirdly. I'm getting really tired of you b****ing about colleteral damage and trying to equate us to terrorists in so doing. I'm also tired of trying to put it through your thick skull that terrorists DELIBERATELY target innocent people while our military has gone far out of its way and to great lengths to avoid hurting those who don't deserve it. You might have had a point back during World War 2 when our military deliberately targeted civillians with this logic but certainly not today. Finally. Your side just loves to keep "dumbing down" the defenition of torture. Pretty soon you are gonna start whining torture when some asshole captured on the battlefield ( which by the way is where most of these clowns come from in the first place ) has his flex-cuffs put on too tight. Save your tears for those in London who were the victims of indiscriminant killing this morning as they actually deserve someones tears. First, allow me to bow to the king of the straw man and the non-sequitor! Fact remains is that the US heralded them as "good soldiers" and let them continue in their jobs with a very minimal punishment. Others heralded them as great Americans and heroes. Nuke, senior members of JAGs have said that Gitmo has been terribly mishandled. Many senior National Security Council and staff & State Department staff believe that Guantanamo and the Defense Department's treatment of detainees has hurt us in the efforts in the "war on terror". Even FOX News commentators have said that Gitmo is not getting us any vital intelligence -- and their sources there have said that there is no vital reason for it to stay open. As Bill Kristol astutely noted, "Why must we hold people outside of US jurisdiction to operate the war on terror?" Why indeed -- why not a US base? As Kristol further noted, it is because different rules would apply and those rules would be perfectly fine for holding terrorists. So, making the Iraqis jump off a bridge was "going out of their way to avoid hurting those who don't deserve it? And as you say they don't target civilians for torture and harassment -- the Army admits that they are just rounding up people and that many of the people detained in Abu Ghraib etc. have actually been innocent and commited no terrorist related activity. So they're targeting civilians as "potential terrorists". And they really went out of their way with their humane and civilized treatment of detainees. Prisoners at Abu Ghraib are protected under the Geneva Convention, a document signed by 47 countries including the United States that outlines the rules of war and occupation. Because of this, the soldiers responsible for the abuse could be charged with war crimes. "Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the detaining power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present convention," Article 13 of the convention reads. "In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoners concerned and carried out in his interest. Abu Ghraib prison "Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity," according to the convention. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, the American armed forces' criminal laws, also prohibits the abuse of prisoners in military custody, according to Georgetown University professor and retired Marine Corps Lt. Col. Gary Solis. So Nuke, if they aren't torture under the Geneva Convention -- then its torture under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It is hilarious to hear you condemn Hussein's torture and abuse of the Iraqis as a reason to invade and then the Americans do the exact same damn thing.

QUOTE(mreye @ Jul 7, 2005 -> 08:52 PM) And there's something wrong with this? Well for him to come from such a moralist family and himself promote such a moralist agenda, then yes I would say that it is a bit hypocritical.

Alright Nuke, no coke references. I'll go for what he admitted -- being a boozehound. During his time in the TANG (TX Air Nat'l Guard), Junior on more than one occasion " stripped off his uniform and danced nude on top of the bar while lip-syching to rowdy George Jones jukebox tunes such as White Lightning."

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 7, 2005 -> 05:16 PM) I have added my own insightful judgement of each of these acts of "torture" as I view them. Some are stupid and reprehensible while those I have no issues with got the big WHAAAAAAAAAAA from me to poke fun at the bleeding hearts. a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet; WHAAAAA b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees; Stupid and pointless c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing; Pointless and stupid d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time; Pointless and stupid e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear; Pointless and stupid f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped; Pointless and stupid g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them; Pointless and stupid h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; Pointless and stupid, shoulda cranked up the juice i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked; Poetic Justice. I love it. j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture; Pointless and stupid k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee; What was that moron thinking? l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee; WHAAAAAAAAAAAA m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees. WHAAAAAAAAAAAA --- a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; That stuff is harmless. How do I know? I've had it spilled on me before on accident. b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol; WHAAAAAAAAAAAA c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees; WHAAAAAAAAAAAA d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; WHAAAAAAAAAAAA e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape; WHAAAAAAAAAAAA f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; The medic was probably busy. g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. Stupid h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee. WHAAAAAAAAAAAA While some of this does qualify as abuse it pales in comparison to the activities these people engage in. Again. Those who perpetrated abuses were tried, convicted and sentenced by a jury of their peers or pled guilty in the first place and recieved what the military thought was an appropriate sentence. The killing or planning thereof of innocent civillians in Western countries as well as in Iraq and Afghanistan makes the petty nonsense those few soldiers took part in look like littering. When we start yanking random innocent people out of their cars and be-heading them on live TV, hanging burned corpses off a bridge in Fallujah and sending suicide car-bombers into crowded markets or blowing up commuter trains and busses in Tehran or Damascus then you can come whine to me about how horrible we are. These people are indeed savages and throwing flowers and candy at them like you want to do is not going to do anything of value. Only by finding and exterminating those responsible for terrorism can we hope to stop it. Nuke, firstly nice job ignoring the first point I made about the US military getting only very minor slaps on the wrists for their abuses and in one case, manslaughter (forcing people to jump off a bridge) You're very good at ignoring the parts that completely invalidate the point you were making. Secondly, you never told me what essential intelligence gathering these various violations of military codes have accomplished outside of more mindless nationalism and arrogance that only further radicalizes even moderate Muslims against the United States. And Nuke, the US military already blows up trains, refrigeration plants, apartment buildings, buses, markets, etc. -- they just call it "collateral damage". And Nuke your statements of inhumanity -- laughing at abuses that these people have gone through, its on the same moral throughway as the radical fundamentalists parading corpses through the streets. You're no different than the radical fundamentalists. You both believe that your cause is anointed and that the other side is completely inhumane and that torture or blurring the lines of proper conduct means nothing if it advances your cause. As much as you try to diverge yourself and the US military from the fundamentalists, you really do have a lot alike...a lot more than you'd probably like to (or will ever) admit. Nice job with the non sequitor about candy and flowers. I believe these people should be arrested if evidence is there that they have something to do with terrorism. If the United States must engage in abuse and torture to achieve its goals, then it has sacrificed the values of the Constitutional republic that was established -- and then the terrorists have truly won.

Nuke, the soldiers who forced the Iraqis to jump off the bridges got very limited sentences. One got 6 months and was not discharged. The military jury also reduced the rank of Army Sgt. 1st Class Tracy Perkins by one grade to staff sergeant, which cuts his pay and responsibilities. Perkins, 33, was convicted of two counts of aggravated assault, assault consummated by battery and obstruction of justice. Two deaths and he serves 6 months. Hardly appropriate. Soldiers that were interviewed by the tribunal looking into the matter said that he was an amazing soldier, a wonderful American hero etc. etc. -- So please, they are being given a hero's welcome. In Abu Ghraib -- no officers are facing charges as per the Washington Post. They relieved one of the generals from their duties -- Wow, retirement -- that sure shows them! Hell, Rumsfeld is even discussing PROMOTING Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez (who was in charge of Abu Ghraib during the time of the height of the abuses) despite not being cleared by an independent tribunal of the accusations against him. So if you want to talk about people involved in inhumane activities [read the discussions and details of the sytematic torture in the Taguba report -- found right here http://www.agonist.org/annex/taguba.htm being lionized as heroes, look no further than what the US military is itself involved in. [http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/9/4566/printer -- forcing women to show their breasts at gunpoint...What a vital intelligence gathering move that is!] Please Nuke, enlighten me to the intelligence gathering abilities that can be garnered from (taken right out of the Taguba report): 6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts: a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet; b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees; c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing; d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time; e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear; f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped; g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them; h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked; j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture; k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee; l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee; m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees. --- a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol; c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees; d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape; f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee. Its not just sleep dep, Nuke -- it's sodomizing with household items and other horrific activities. So please, get your facts straight before you start shooting some hot air. And really, reading the report of the widespread abuses -- the US military should really listen to the old adage before they start going and calling other people savages -- "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Edit: fixed broken link to report.

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jul 7, 2005 -> 08:23 AM) Well, that is certainly an interesting twist, if there is any truth to it. If you keep up the correspondence with the IL chapter guy and he gets any more information on it, please pass it along. I knew the Alford name was familiar to me for some reason but I couldn't quite pin it to anything. Then I remembered -- http://www.abqjournal.com/opinion/guest_co...ion07-02-05.htm On a website called "Stop the ACLU," Alford recently published an article in which he urges the American Legion, a veterans group adamantly opposed to the ACLU, to "infiltrate" the organization and take it over from the "communists and liberals." "If even half of the members of the American Legion in southern New Mexico ... commit to (joining) the ACLU, and ... attend the board meetings," Alford proposes, "then they could expect to be asked to fill vacancies on the board. ... Our veterans could propose selected individuals to serve on the board, and vote them on in a massive landslide vote at the elections. ... If we did this state-wide, then we could effectively take over all of the local boards in the state of New Mexico within three to four years." In an attempt to distance himself from ACLU beliefs, Alford goes on to declare his support for compulsory military service and the death penalty. Then he confides, "You should also be aware that I ... serve as the secretary of the board of directors for the Southern New Mexico Chapter of the ACLU. It took me less than a year to get on the board. ... You, too, can be a card carrying member of the ACLU, and you should be. ... It's time to quit complaining about the problems in this nation, and to get involved in viable solutions."

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2005 -> 09:27 AM) The US just raised the warning level to "orange" for mass transit... whatever the hell that means. It means bring your coffee on the train, read the paper and go to work like normal. The color coded system is meaningless cuz nobody cares. Besides, haven't we been at orange for a while now? Perhaps I missed it getting knocked back down to yellow before.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 7, 2005 -> 07:25 AM) Yeah. There's far too many people who don't realize that these people perpetrating these attacks are nothing more than a bunch of savages. Thats right. SAVAGES. Every last motherf***ig one of em. Savages can't be reasoned with. Savages can't be bargained with. Savages can't be bought off. Savages must be found wherever they are and exterminated. You all know I'm talking about that 1% of Islam that is perverting the religon for their own goals of a Taliban-like world. I dont want to hear any bulls*** about me being racist because you can't argue the point that people who commit random violence like this are f***ING SAVAGES. No more savage than shooting rockets from a helicopter gunship into an apartment complex. No more savage than "collateral damage". No more savage than US soldiers making two Iraqis jump off a bridge to their deaths. [http://washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040731-101609-2416r.htm -- I even got it from the Moonie Times, so I'm really waiting for the leftist media claim, Nuke] No more savage than the leveling of the entire city of Fallujah. No more savage than the systematic (yes, systematic, read the Taguba report) torture at the prisons like Abu Ghraib and Gitmo. Besides, didn't Bush tell them to "bring it on"? I feel very badly for all the families involved that have been affected by this tragedy. Its sad that they have to pay the price for our leaders being f***ing incompetent and functionally retarded. Former CIA analyst Michael Scheuer makes a startlingly trenchant point in the opening paragraph of Imperial Hubris, his bestselling book: "As I complete this book, U.S., British, and other coalition forces are trying to govern apparently ungovernable postwar states in Afghanistan and Iraq, while simultaneously fighting growing Islamist insurgencies in each – a state of affairs our leaders call victory. In conducting these activities, and the conventional military campaigns preceding them, U.S. forces and policies are completing the radicalization of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result, I think it fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden's only indispensable ally." If Bush wants, as he said, for the terrorists to "bring it on" then they're really only giving him what he demanded.

QUOTE(sox4lifeinPA @ Jul 7, 2005 -> 08:03 AM) y'all know I had to move to PA to learn to read... If I have time I'll pick it up. How many pages? ~300

For one of my jobs, I just have to wear pants, t-shirt, socks and shoes. My other one, it doesn't matter cuz I just sit in front of my computer and just e-mail in the work.

QUOTE(ChiSoxyGirl @ Jul 6, 2005 -> 08:48 PM) I'll pick it up tomorrow. So, exactly what's the plan, do we have a timeline? How are we going to do this? The plan is to have it done by the 25th of July. Then we can spend a few days talking about it and move on to the August book that Cheat suggested.

Per being told re: Sox game -- sPod has won the competition and is in the ASG.

What I got when I wrote the IL ACLU about this seeming violation of civil liberties: Neil, thanks for the heads up on this story. I don't know much about the matter, but have been told by my colleagues in NYC that the individual in question here actually was attempting to create a stir within the organization and had misrepresented his true intentions when he asked for recognition of the chapter. Apparently, he was actually associated with an anti-ACLU group and was looking, according to those in New Mexico, to "infiltrate" the organization. I don't know much more, but think that it is sad that any of this came to pass. Ed

QUOTE(FlaSoxxJim @ Jul 6, 2005 -> 01:00 PM) Happy Birthday, I hope you have a swell party. Say hello to Chuck E. Cheese for me. Why is that in green, Flaxx?

Add in ~200 votes from me. Time for me to get ready for work as well. Stupid job, don't they know sPod getting in the ASG is so much more important?

QUOTE(Soxnbears01 @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 04:44 PM) if i ever decide to not be lazy and go to the bookstore, i'll pick this survivor up Well its not like you're employed or anything so you should have all sorts of free time.

QUOTE(EvilJester99 @ Jul 6, 2005 -> 09:00 AM) Sounds like Uncle Lou is trying to get himself fired from Tampa... He's gotta be pissed. He got told that payroll would go up consistently so they would have a chance to compete in the division. They've become a joke of the league and forced to hire really young players and players that are past their prime. I can't wait to see what happens if he keeps this sort of stuff up.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 6, 2005 -> 12:56 AM) I needed read no further than this paragraph to know this guy is full of s***. One of the members of this little consortium was on O'reilly talking about it and each and every one of them is paying for this trip and its expenses out of their own pockets or their respective radio stations are helping to sponsor them. OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKETS Funny how you didn't discuss the fact that the whole "We're winning. We've won" rhetoric is BS as the piece said. As Cheney said: they're in their last throes...but Rummy said, at least 12 more years. And the radio propagandists are still part of the government pony show to justify this war -- sort of like Pravda. It was "independent" but everybody knew it was just spewing what the state wanted them to say.

How quickly people forget the assistance that the French gave us in establishing this nation in the first place. I heart mindless nationalism! Like Einstein said, nationalism is an infantile disease -- it is the measles of mankind.

From Justin Raimondo's most recent column (and before anybody asks, he's a staunch conservative libertarian) "According to retired Col. Buzz Patterson, host of The Buzz Cut on Rightalk, the delegation of seven to 10 conservatives will also include two writers from the Web site FrontPage Magazine, which is published by David Horowitz) and the Center for the Study of Popular Culture. 'The war is being won, if not already won, I think,' Patterson, who is retired from the U.S. Air Force, said. '[iraq] is stabilized and we want the soldiers themselves to tell the story.'" Cocooning in the Green Zone, traveling under heavy guard when they dare to venture out, the War Party's Traveling Dog-and-Pony Show will broadcast propaganda at U.S. government expense, direct to you from Centcom headquarters, "reporting" our great success in turning Iraq into a training ground for terrorist groups worldwide. The Fox piece cites Joe Conason as predicting that Rummy's amen corner will be disabused of its ideological notions very quickly, and Allbritton's recent experience upon landing at Baghdad airport shows that this will no doubt happen very quickly: "I've been back one day, and the airport road was the worst I've ever seen it. We had to go around a fire-fight between mujahideen and Americans while Iraqi forces sat in the shade of date palms on the side of the road, their rifles resting across their laps. My driver pointed to a group of men in a white pickup next to me. 'They are mujahideen,' he said. 'They are watching the Americans.' Indeed, they were, and so intently that they paid no attention to me in the car next to them. We detoured around two possible car bombs that had been cordoned off while Iraqis cautiously approached." There is so much in that paragraph that debunks the mindless talk of "victory" and "staying the course," starting with the alleged eagerness of the Iraqis to fight for their aspiring "democracy": the part about them sitting in the shade of date palms, while Americans did the fighting, tells us all we need to know about how the Iraqis will "stand up" so we can "stand down," as the president puts it. So we're "winning," are we, if not already victorious? Then how come we can't even secure the road connecting the airport to Baghdad? The anonymous blogger known as "Billmon" has a great take on the "Truth Tour." He points out that if the insurgents are smart, they'll be just as accommodating as the U.S. military in keeping the radio-rightists out of harm's way. The wing-nuts, after all, are an enormous asset to the jihadis, who want to radically alienate Iraqis from the secular West, says Billmon: "As it happens, the paid propagandists of wing nut radio have the same objective – to promote a clash of civilizations. They do it by playing up every atrocity committed by the insurgents while ignoring every display of massive overkill (like the flattening of Fallujah) committed by the U.S. military, by glorifying torture and degradation (I Heart Gitmo), by demonizing Islam as a 'gutter' religion and the Arabs as a subhuman species, and in general by being the loudest, most obnoxious assholes on the face of the earth. Walking billboards for anti-Americanism, in fact. "And they do these things for much the same reason Bin Ladin rants about Zionists and crusaders: because it gets good ratings. Spewing hatred over the airwaves 24/7 keeps the true believers in a permanent froth, drowning out any doubts about the party line and the party elite. This, in turn, makes it easier to paint dissent as treason and criticism of the Cheney administration as support for terrorism."

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 10:28 PM) It'd be a lot more fair and balanced than hearing nothing but the daily body count from the mainstream media. I don't know what news you're seeing that in. All I ever see on the news is "Natalee Holloway: Day 73982374823 Update...One of the prosecutors takes a dump! Breaking news!" and "2 Missing kids in Idaho!"

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 5, 2005 -> 12:42 AM) Tell me how oil sales during the Reagan Administration were illicit when the sanctions weren't placed on Iraq until 1990? Your timeline is a little off. I'm talking about Reagan's selling of WMD to Saddam which propped him up esp. in the war with Iran (despite Hussein's harboring of Abu Nidal)

I think there is only one explanation of where all the blame lies for the strike:

QUOTE(greasywheels121 @ Jul 4, 2005 -> 03:12 PM) I'm mad I missed it. Did that insane Japanese guy win again? Yep. 49 in 12 minutes.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 4, 2005 -> 05:08 PM) Just as soon as your side believes that it was Kofi Annan's corruption and hypocrasy and that of his predecessor that allowed Hussein to be propped up for so long in the first place. And before him, Reagan and Rumsfeld (not to mention US multinationals) Plus the US knew about many of the illicit oil sales -- so if they wanted to do something about that they could have. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/02/iraq.oil.smuggle/ Documents obtained by CNN reveal the United States knew about, and even condoned, embargo-breaking oil sales by Saddam Hussein's regime, and did so to shore up alliances with Iraq's neighbors. The oil trade with countries such as Turkey and Jordan appears to have been an open secret inside the U.S. government and the United Nations for years. The unclassified State Department documents sent to congressional committees with oversight of U.S. foreign policy divulge that the United States deemed such sales to be in the "national interest," even though they generated billions of dollars in unmonitored revenue for Saddam's regime.