4 minutes ago, bmags said:

That sounds like an Anderson/Madrigal issue, too.

You should go look at a bunch of high school major leaguer scouting reports and how often "needs to add pounds to grow into power" are written about them.

Francisco Lindor had a future 40 tagged to his power.

Anderson obviously has more than 20 HR in him.  He also wasn't the #3 pick.  All I'm saying is I don't want to have a light power middle infield down the road.  

If the Sox are picking the guy who they have as the best available on their board then I can live with their pick.  If they are picking based on trying to sign a guy below slot, then I do not like it.  Don't play around when you have the 3rd pick.   

1 minute ago, soxfan49 said:

You really think Anderson and Madrigal will combine for 15-20 homers? Even if Madrigal only hits ~5 a year, Anderson's going to be above 20 on his own.

I think Anderson is probably safely a 20 hr guy, and Abrams is likely to be a 15 hr guy, but apparently that's an issue because Madrigal - which sounds like a Madrigal problem.

You also don't have to play Abrams at SS, you can play him wherever you need him. You could play him at 2b and have madrigal flex everywhere. It would be like a deep team that's good operates.

No one seems to have Abrams slotted as high as #3. Since that's where the Sox get to make their first selection, it would be "getting cute," by definition, if they take him.  Therefore, unless you think that they can pull off some coup, saving money, for future rounds, it's not going to be a good choice.

11 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think Anderson is probably safely a 20 hr guy, and Abrams is likely to be a 15 hr guy, but apparently that's an issue because Madrigal - which sounds like a Madrigal problem.

You also don't have to play Abrams at SS, you can play him wherever you need him. You could play him at 2b and have madrigal flex everywhere. It would be like a deep team that's good operates.

If you don't play Abrams at SS, then he's probably nowhere close to being worth the #3 pick.

The game has shifted even more toward the long ball. Hard to imagine the Sox use top 4 picks, two years in a row, for guys who don't fit that profile. Moreover, those kinds of players are the least expensive to obtain through free agency. I think a middle of the order bat, or a top of the rotation starter, are the profiles, which should be targeted with a #3 pick.

6 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

If you don't play Abrams at SS, then he's probably nowhere close to being worth the #3 pick.

Not if he's capable of playing SS.

6 minutes ago, Perfect Vision said:

If you don't play Abrams at SS, then he's probably nowhere close to being worth the #3 pick.

True, as proven by the White Sox over the past 3 years it is very easy to find a center fielder.

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Not if he's capable of playing SS.

However, aren't there questions about his being able to stick at SS? At #3, doesn't he have to be an elite defender, unless he has an exceptional bat?

12 minutes ago, Lillian said:

No one seems to have Abrams slotted as high as #3. Since that's where the Sox get to make their first selection, it would be "getting cute," by definition, if they take him.  Therefore, unless you think that they can pull off some coup, saving money, for future rounds, it's not going to be a good choice.

There have been a number of teams heavily criticized for "getting cute" in the draft that ended up getting the correct player. We should stop assuming we know the exact value of these players. 

1 minute ago, TomPickle said:

True, as proven by the White Sox over the past 3 years it is very easy to find a center fielder.

Has Abrams ever even played CF? Again, at #3, shouldn't he be a proven elite defender in CF, rather than some fast kid, who might profile as a "potential" center fielder?

 

Edited June 3, 20196 yr by Lillian

1 minute ago, TomPickle said:

True, as proven by the White Sox over the past 3 years it is very easy to find a center fielder.

Who is Luis Robert?

4 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Has Abrams ever even played CF? 

I don't know, but that is the natural progression if someone athletic can't stick at SS. There was a lot of chatter on here a couple years ago about people wanting Anderson to move to CF (or catcher).

 

3 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

Who is Luis Robert?

A player with 0 MLB plate appearances. I love Luis Robert, but let's not pretend like he's a sure thing or a reason why you couldn't possibly need another player capable of manning CF.

 

I prefer Vaughn to Abrams, but that doesn't mean he's instantly a bust at #3 if he doesn't end up playing SS. From all accounts he also sounds very likely to end up at SS so this is all a bit silly.

Edited June 3, 20196 yr by TomPickle

7 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Has Abrams ever even played CF? Again, at #3, shouldn't he be a proven elite defender in CF, rather than some fast kid, who might profile as a "potential" center fielder?

 

Yes, he played CF on Team USA to make way for Witt.

Interesting. From the Fangraphs scouting report on Abrams. Is he the makeup guy?

Quote

Most clubs regard Abrams as more of a 50 makeup guy (admittedly a subjective distinction) who has questionable enthusiasm for the game, but at some point, his near historic raw tools and strong track record are too much to pass up.

 

Edited June 3, 20196 yr by DirtySox

1 hour ago, dominik-keul@gmx.de said:

Fangraphs have him at 60/60. Where have you seen 70/65 for vaughn?

I'll link when I'm home, but I read the 70/65 piece I believe from theringer. Sorry, its 65/60 and the point about vlad being only hitting prospect better graded is true.

There are scouts that put Vaughn at 70/65.

Edited June 3, 20196 yr by Look at Ray Ray Run

9 minutes ago, Lillian said:

However, aren't there questions about his being able to stick at SS? At #3, doesn't he have to be an elite defender, unless he has an exceptional bat?

Yes, but there are questions about everyone. What if Vaughn has to move to DH? Is a DH worth the #3 pick?

For your last part, no, I don't think this board appreciates how hard it is to find a SS. One of the things about short stops is you can play anywhere. That makes you a very valuable prospect, because no matter what our team looks like in 2022/23/24 etc, you can provide defensive value where needed.

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

BP has 70 hit and 80 power on Vaughn which is insane 

That 60/60 you see from FG is present. That 70/80 you see from BP is FV.

I think FGs FV is 65/60 on vaughn.

I lean more towards BP's grades.

This idea that Abrams "might" a good SS, or Center fielder is what troubles me. If he doesn't have an elite bat, then I want more than a guy who might develop into a good SS, or center fielder. This profile suggests to me that he only has one elite tool, which is his speed. Remember, this is the 3RD pick. Too risky for me. 

2 minutes ago, DirtySox said:

Interesting. From the Fangraphs scouting report on Abrams. Is he the makeup guy?

 

That's gotta be it. Crazy though, mostly read the opposite about him previously, especially on work ethic. Gonna have to put the nail in the abrams coffin to sox, too many tendencies that push them in a different direction.

I was just watching MLB Network, and they were talking about the possibility of teams being able to trade draft picks.  The obvious reason for not allowing them is for teams to protect themselves from each other.  The reason for this would be to create excitement leading up to draft.

I can just imagine that if draft trades were allowed how other teams would be picking the pockets of Mssrs. Hahn, Williams, etc.

Allow me to clarify the point, which I'm trying to make about Abrams. Yes, I agree, SS is a very valued, premium position. If his profile were: An elite defender at SS, who will be able to stick at that position, I might be on board. However, that is not his profile. According to MLB Pipeline, it's rather; "The biggest question with Abrams is where he'll eventually make his defensive home. The Alabama recruit has solid arm strength and a chance to stick at shortstop, but he doesn't have the most fluid actions. He might fit better at second base or center field, and he played the latter position in deference to Bobby Witt Jr. on Team USA at the 18-and-under Pan American Championships in Panama last fall."

So, what are we looking at here? A guy who is not an elite defender at either SS, or CF. It's fine that he has tools, which "might" enable him to become a good SS, or center fielder, but at #3, unless he has an elite bat, shouldn't we be expecting more?

Edited June 3, 20196 yr by Lillian

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I do know one thing, the report that KW wanted Abrams and the other White Sox people wanted someone else is total BS. That would never get out. This is a team that tried to make it physically look like they weren't interested in Abreu when they went to his showcase.

I actually disagree. I think it's more likely this leaked from the analytical side (the hostetler/hahn) side to push back on Kenny's preference.

3 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Allow me to clarify the point, which I'm trying to make about Abrams. Yes, I agree, SS is a very valued, premium position. If his profile were: An elite defender at SS, who will be able to stick at that position, I might be on board. However, that is not his profile. According to MLB Pipeline, it's rather; "The biggest question with Abrams is where he'll eventually make his defensive home. The Alabama recruit has solid arm strength and a chance to stick at shortstop, but he doesn't have the most fluid actions. He might fit better at second base or center field, and he played the latter position in deference to Bobby Witt Jr. on Team USA at the 18-and-under Pan American Championships in Panama last fall."

I, too, would like the perfect player with no uncertainty to be available at #3.  But I have the same concerns about not particularly athletic mashers, whom recently I have seen hit more of a wall once they face AA and AAA pitching, while high schoolers who are improving their body and skills facing top competition fly by them.

I really hope vaughn is a complete masher, I think he definitely is worth taking a chance on.

But people are taking at face value the idea that college competition is essentially the pros and we can just expect that type of player in the bigs, whereas the high school players are also what they are now, with no improvement.

 

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I do know one thing, the report that KW wanted Abrams and the other White Sox people wanted someone else is total BS. That would never get out. This is a team that tried to make it physically look like they weren't interested in Abreu when they went to his showcase.

 

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I actually disagree. I think it's more likely this leaked from the analytical side (the hostetler/hahn) side to push back on Kenny's preference.

Where is this report of disagreement within the Sox FO? I've been speculating that something like this has been going down for the last couple weeks. 

If the Sox draft Abrams then it is pretty much proof positive that KW is back in charge of the Sox draft room.