I think we all need to re-think what "good stuff" for a pitcher actually is

I think it is a combination of the following:

1. Spin on pitches

2.  Achieving swings and misses from MLB hitters on a given pitch

3. Being able to achieve the backwards K vs MLB hitters. 

I think velocity is secondary to these three things. 

I bring this up to start a discussion on how to define "stuff" and why sometimes a pitcher with great velocity and movement on breaking pitches continues to get hammered and not miss bats, while someone like Buehrle could get MLB hitters out for the great majority of his career, even without gaining tons of strikeouts. 

 

Edited June 16, 20187 yr by Jack Parkman

I think of it very simply.  The batter has a really good idea what is coming and he still can't  handle it.  All the things you mention enter into it but for any pitcher any one may come into play.  The exception to my own statement might be the guy with four good pitches that can get you out because you can't guess what is coming.  Maybe great is here it is , it don't matter, you aint hitting it!

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think we all need to re-think what "good stuff" for a pitcher actually is

I think it is a combination of the following:

1. Spin on pitches

2.  Achieving swings and misses from MLB hitters on a given pitch

3. Being able to achieve the backwards K vs MLB hitters. 

I think velocity is secondary to these three things. 

I bring this up to start a discussion on how to define "stuff" and why sometimes a pitcher with great velocity and movement on breaking pitches continues to get hammered and not miss bats, while someone like Buehrle could get MLB hitters out for the great majority of his career, even without gaining tons of strikeouts. 

 

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

THANK YOU! He also said Kyle Hendricks is garbage cause he throws 86-88 and is "smoke and mirrors" despite the fact he's been one of the better starters in the NL going on what.. three years now before editing his post several times... Here's one of the threads here on FS board.

Edited June 16, 20187 yr by SoxAce

Spin rate and horizontal/vertical movement, and velocity and velocity deltas, mostly. When scouts talk about "stuff" I think they are usually discussing it independent of results. A guy with good "stuff" gets good results if he can mix and command his pitches to fool hitters. A guy with bad "stuff" can still get good results if he is really good at mixing and commanding (Kyle Hendricks, latter-day Bartolo, etc). 

On 6/16/2018 at 6:19 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

Lopez/Hendricks are causing me to re-evaluate my view on stuff. For some reason Lopez has great velocity, A good FB-CH split and decent movement on a breaking ball and he still doesn't miss bats. There has to be something more. I know there have always been pitchers that have thrown less than 90 and get hitters out. I'm trying to figure out what it is that cause pitchers with all of the right velocity metrics to just not miss bats and those who have "nothing" to get hitters out on  a regular basis. 

Edited June 18, 20187 yr by Jack Parkman

15 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So velocity is secondary, but Dane Dunning isn’t going to make with a “90 to 92 MPH”?  Maybe you should reference this post in the future when you start writing off Dane again.

Seems weird to give  guy crap after he has clearly re-thought his position and changed his mind a bit.

On 6/15/2018 at 9:57 PM, Jack Parkman said:

I think we all need to re-think what "good stuff" for a pitcher actually is

I think it is a combination of the following:

1. Spin on pitches

2.  Achieving swings and misses from MLB hitters on a given pitch

3. Being able to achieve the backwards K vs MLB hitters. 

I think velocity is secondary to these three things. 

 

I am fairly certain that velo is a prerequisite to #2 and #3. Perhaps everyone who has #2 and #3 doesn't have velo. However, generally speaking - it certainly helps.

On 6/16/2018 at 10:18 PM, turnin' two said:

Seems weird to give  guy crap after he has clearly re-thought his position and changed his mind a bit.

He just did that. I love @Chicago White Sox for calling him out on it too. 

Well good stuff basically means swing and misses regardless of velo. When a guy has elite stuff he gets swings and misses on chases but also within the zone. It is good to get chases a few inches off or on a high fastball but when you watch guys like scherzer they will get some misses on pretty fat pitches. That doesn't mean he can survive throwing dickshots all the time, he needs to locate too but it helps if you fall behind to be able to throw a slightly elevated fastball middle in and still get a miss or foul.

 

Zone contact% is a good indicator. League average is around 85%. If it is 80 it is great, approaching high 80s is worrisome (can find z con on fangraphs player page under plate discipline).

It's the ability to generate sings and misses and backwards Ks and soft contact.  Now, HOW you get those things is above my pay grade.  Obviously it helps to have velocity, spin rate and pinpoint command.  I'd say a necessary (but not sufficient) component of that is having at least two pitches you can throw for a strike in any count.  Like when Nate Jones comes out and throws 10 straight fastballs it doesn't matter if it's 96-97 because timing wise, he has no threat of an offspeed pitch.