"Magic/al" Madrigal

[caulfield12]

The players who hit that profile (not pure power guys who will get AT LEAST 25-35+ homers) that are OPSing above 840 are:

Yelich, Benintendi, Markakis, Eduardo Escobar, Bogaerts, Zobrist, Dickerson (he's more of a doubles hitter this year) and Altuve.

He definitely needs more doubles/triples and walks, those two elements of his game.

Edited August 8, 2018 by caulfield12

[Wanne]

13 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't want a throwback to another era I want a player who plays well in this era. To me he'll be a .750 ish OPS SS/2B at the next level which is useful just not someone you take 4th overall.

He's going to have to show 20HR power to be more and maybe he does who knows but with these small guys that is not a bet I'd want to make with the 4th pick.

if he hits around .333 or so I'm not that concerned about his home runs.  He's the table setter....

[bmags]

If Madrigal hits a 780 OPS he'd rank 8th as a 2b. Now let's do all of the other baseball stuff he looks to be excellent at. 

[southsider2k5]

As to Madrigal's future, I very seriously doubt he is the best player picked from his spot back.  In fact I would bet against it.  But I would also be willing to bet that if you gave me gregs house to bet on any one player drafted from the #4 slot on down that would be a major league starters in 5 years, it would be Madrigal.  His floor is freakishly high.  He has major league defensive tools today.  He might even already have a major league ready hit tool today. 

[wrathofhahn]

15 minutes ago, Wanne said:

if he hits around .333 or so I'm not that concerned about his home runs.  He's the table setter....

Hits around .333? What are the chances of that? And yes if he hits like Ichiro HR's are not as much of a concern.

But on the off crazy chance he doesn't hit .333 and instead puts up Eckstein numbers .290-.295 then you should be concerned.

And I don't want the 4th overall pick to be a table setter. I want him to be a potential superstar.

It just annoying in an era where we've crunched the numbers and figured out the most efficient way to score runs we draft a "throwback" player. Whose small and whose best attribute is his hit tool which has become marginalized versus OBP in todays game and who has very little power projection.

Edited August 7, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[bmags]

It's so bizarre to me that in this MLB with all of the different makeups the star players have, people can still feel convinced that they know the ceilings of players.

We really still doing little infielder = eckstein? Last year all I heard was Albies was basically Yolmer Sanchez.

We have a super star that's a 6'8" (judge) monster bookended by a 5'9 centerfielder (betts). Smooth athletic powerhitting MI (baez) next to pudgy short corner infielders (Ramirez, and guess whose having the best season?. A 5'7 batting champion (altuve) And a prototypical golden child (Trout).

Don't tell me you know what these guys are capable of. Madrigal wants every ounce from a baseball career. I'll bet on that guy.

[wrathofhahn]

22 minutes ago, bmags said:

It's so bizarre to me that in this MLB with all of the different makeups the star players have, people can still feel convinced that they know the ceilings of players.

We really still doing little infielder = eckstein? Last year all I heard was Albies was basically Yolmer Sanchez.

We have a super star that's a 6'8" (judge) monster bookended by a 5'9 centerfielder (betts). Smooth athletic powerhitting MI (baez) next to pudgy short corner infielders (Ramirez, and guess whose having the best season?. A 5'7 batting champion (altuve) And a prototypical golden child (Trout).

Don't tell me you know what these guys are capable of. Madrigal wants every ounce from a baseball career. I'll bet on that guy.

Oh comeon. There is a reason why MLB teams have the draft rather then just picking random names out of a hat it's all educated guesswork.

You can go up and down the draft and find guys that were picked later who became stars. That doesn't mean GM's on average have no idea what they are doing it's an inexact science. So when you point to a couple of guys who have hit for power but are smaller that's not evidence of anything. Show me the study where ALL hitters are measured that shows size doesn't matter. You can't because the data doesn't exist. There is a stigma attached smaller players for good reason.

That mainly has to do with swing paths and the 6' and above hitters can get under the ball much easier to drive it. Maybe Madrigal will become an exception like Peddie/Altuve but there has been no evidence of that kind of power in his college career and none since joining the MILB. So why should anyone make that assumption?

 

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Oh comeon. There is a reason why MLB teams have the draft rather then just picking random names out of a hat it's all educated guesswork.

You can go up and down the draft and find guys that were picked later who became stars. That doesn't mean GM's on average have no idea what they are doing it's an inexact science. So when you point to a couple of guys who have hit for power but are smaller that's not evidence of anything. Show me the study where ALL hitters are measured that shows size doesn't matter. You can't because the data doesn't exist. There is a stigma attached smaller players for good reason.

That mainly has to do with swing paths and the 6' and above hitters can get under the ball much easier to drive it. Maybe Madrigal will become an exception like Peddie/Altuve but there has been no evidence of that kind of power in his college career and none since joining the MILB. So why should anyone make that assumption?

 

My argument had nothing to do with the draft. My argument is that body type and power are not even close to the two top predictors I would choose for success in a position player.

Madrigal has a number of plus skills, including defense, baserunning and a plus plus skill in bat-to-ball skills. I will take players that have multiple plus skills and high baseball IQ even if they have a below average skill and non-ideal body type.

 

[caulfield12]

If we went just by physical tools, Borchard, Anderson, Jared Mitchell and Hawkins would be in the HoF...well, at least three of those guys.

Edited August 7, 2018 by caulfield12

[wrathofhahn]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

My argument had nothing to do with the draft. My argument is that body type and power are not even close to the two top predictors I would choose for success in a position player.

Madrigal has a number of plus skills, including defense, baserunning and a plus plus skill in bat-to-ball skills. I will take players that have multiple plus skills and high baseball IQ even if they have a below average skill and non-ideal body type.

 

My point was you can try to use selective bias to prove anything that is an inexact science. Throwing out random names that fit a specific narrative doesn't mean anything.

My comparison of Eckstein was actually based on how he profiles moving forward not the fact they were both small.

Also Madrigal does have a number of plus skills and I do think he'll end up being a useful player the point I was making is I don't see him with the upside of star with his current set of skills which you should expect when you are picking 4th.

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

47 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

My point was you can try to use selective bias to prove anything that is an inexact science. Throwing out random names that fit a specific narrative doesn't mean anything.

My comparison of Eckstein was actually based on how he profiles moving forward not the fact they were both small.

Also Madrigal does have a number of plus skills and I do think he'll end up being a useful player the point I was making is I don't see him with the upside of star with his current set of skills which you should expect when you are picking 4th.

 

So tell us who you would've picked 4th, We'll see how it all shakes out. You have one shot don't say multiple names to increase your odds of picking someone who ends up better than Madrigal. The Sox had one shot at it so should you with a slight advantage of seeing how well any of them have done so far in their assignments.

[wrathofhahn]

On 8/7/2018 at 6:00 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So tell us who you would've picked 4th, We'll see how it all shakes out. You have one shot don't say multiple names to increase your odds of picking someone who ends up better than Madrigal. The Sox had one shot at it so should you with a slight advantage of seeing how well any of them have done so far in their assignments.

I already did it's in the Madrigal draft thread I can hunt up the link if you'd like but the standard is sort of the same I really thought this draft was deep with HS really projectable arms. Guys like Carter Stewart, Liberatore, Weathers. I also liked Groshans alot and found him to be a better prospect (you can go back to the thread).

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105479-white-sox-select-nick-madrigal-with-4th-overall-pick/&do=findComment&comment=3632963

I would have went with any number of guys but lets just keep it simple since you want one name and they both play the MI I'll go with Groshans.

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by wrathofhahn

[Panerista]

22 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

I already did it's in the Madrigal draft thread I can hunt up the link if you'd like but the standard is sort of the same I really thought this draft was deep with HS really projectable arms. Guys like Carter Stewart, Liberatore, Weathers. I also liked Groshans alot and found him to be a better prospect (you can go back to the thread).

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105479-white-sox-select-nick-madrigal-with-4th-overall-pick/&do=findComment&comment=3632963

I would have went with any number of guys but lets just keep it simple since you want one name and they both play the MI I'll go with Groshans.

 

I don't know if it was the lack of constructive reasoning or the offensive remark (probably a violation of Soxtalk's policies), but that post didn't do anything for us.

[wrathofhahn]

11 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

I don't know if it was the lack of constructive reasoning or the offensive remark (probably a violation of Soxtalk's policies), but that post didn't do anything for us.

It really wasn't supposed to (it was my immediate reaction to the pick). I went much further as to why I liked Groshan in other posts the point was I've already suggested names and I hated the pick immediately when it's made.

Like I said though it's not even Madrigal so much it's where he was selected. If he was taken with our 2nd round pick or if we had a 1c then used it on him I'd have been thrilled.

[Jerksticks]

58 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

It really wasn't supposed to (it was my immediate reaction to the pick). I went much further as to why I liked Groshan in other posts the point was I've already suggested names and I hated the pick immediately when it's made.

Like I said though it's not even Madrigal so much it's where he was selected. If he was taken with our 2nd round pick or if we had a 1c then used it on him I'd have been thrilled.

I think the idea of 4th being a spot that should go to a potential superstar is a bit of a stretch.  

Teams mess up the first pick all the time.  The 4th?  Holy moly.  If you get a solid major leaguer hell yea.   Madrigal was an interesting combination of floor AND ceiling.  Super rare.  I just can’t be mad at the pick and I’ve tried