We all wanted to see the freak show. See someone throw the ball harder than anyone. Then when that inevitably breaks, trying to place blame, seems kind of weak.

Other than John Danks and Rodon, and neither were TJ...what starters have gone down in the last decade?  Burdi, but he’s a reliever.  We cut bait on guys like Hudson and McCarthy well before they got hurt multiple times.

Statistically, the rate should be much higher for the Sox.  And, for all we know, some of the damage to Kopech was done while he was still in the Red Sox organization.  The following article was from 2013, over five years ago, well before every other pitcher in baseball was throwing 95+.

 

“One-third of current MLB pitchers have had Tommy John surgery. Of the about 360 who started the season, 124 share the all-too-familiar triangular scar. 

How surprising is this number? It stunned me! In recent talks with baseball officials, none guessed more than the one-in-nine number I had often seen quoted over the last decade (and quoted myself). Worse, none of us had any idea when this change had happened or noticed the acceleration. 

With the help of research assistants, I arrived at the number 124 by going through current rosters and searching news reports for each pitcher, looking to see if he had had Tommy John. The players are listed in this PDF, along with the year of their most recent surgery (players with italicized years have had more than one elbow reconstruction). For a different look at all the names, check out the illustration below.”

37 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

That is what I figured. He would have kept pitching in Charlotte so you figure the same thing was going to happen. 

 

I think this injury was pretty pretty much unavoidable. Kopech was already damaged goods in all likelihood when he was called up. And none of us had a clue, so hard to blame the White Sox. And he has typical soreness. Hard to blame him. It just happens and it sucks.

The injury is never unavoidable.  It just depends on the individual.  There is a reason people talk about not throwing at near max all of time. It isn't as easy to pitch that way which is why they need to learn to pitch not throw.

There were no reports of issues previous to this at least that I heard.

Just now, Dick Allen said:

We all wanted to see the freak show. See someone throw the ball harder than anyone. Then when that inevitably breaks, trying to place blame, seems kind of weak.

Even Nolan Ryan was tuning in...

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What about the Angels with Ohtani?

At any rate, Sale and Price need to win a World Series for Boston before they can really start crowing.   And that’s exponentially harder than emerging from the NL field of contenders.

They did better than the Sox, that's for sure.  They ID'd the pain and problem early, did a shitload of diagnostics and shut him down and did PRT and other therapy.  They were pretty successful, getting him to the point where he made another start, but ultimately they had to shut him down and schedule the surgery.  

Contrast that to the situation we have here where you've got dimished velocity, a young kid in pain that doesn't want to show it (just like Lopez) and a coaching and training staff that is completely oblivious.

I gotta question for @ptatc: let's say that as a young trainer working a prestigious MLB job you're watching Kopech warm up.  You're watching him with eagle eyes, as it's your career at stake here and you see him grimacing.  You ask the gun guy to put a gun on him and you're seeing 93-94.  

At this point, does it not BEHOOVE YOU to raise a red flag, send it up the ladder, raise a bit of an alarm?

How the fuck did the Sox let Kopech make that start?

Again, JASON BENETTI NOTICED IT IN THE BOOTH.

20 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

The Sox also might want to tell their stud pitching prospects that this is a bad idea. It's most likely not related, but if there's one thing about powerlifters, it's that they're always injured. 

 

This particular activity is all legs and is fine. I cant say that I agree with them all.

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

This particular activity is all legs and is fine. I cant say that I agree with them all.

trap bar dead-lifts are probably one of the safest power lifts you can do, especially how Kopech is setup with the bar slightly raised off the ground.  Personally I only do trap bar deadlifts now.  much easier to lock in form and not round back and risk injury.

Edited September 7, 20187 yr by chitownsportsfan

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

They did better than the Sox, that's for sure.  They ID'd the pain and problem early, did a shitload of diagnostics and shut him down and did PRT and other therapy.  They were pretty successful, getting him to the point where he made another start, but ultimately they had to shut him down and schedule the surgery.  

Contrast that to the situation we have here where you've got dimished velocity, a young kid in pain that doesn't want to show it (just like Lopez) and a coaching and training staff that is completely oblivious.

I gotta question for @ptatc: let's say that as a young trainer working a prestigious MLB job you're watching Kopech warm up.  You're watching him with eagle eyes, as it's your career at stake here and you see him grimacing.  You ask the gun guy to put a gun on him and you're seeing 93-94.  

At this point, does it not BEHOOVE YOU to raise a red flag, send it up the ladder, raise a bit of an alarm?

How the fuck did the Sox let Kopech make that start?

Again, JASON BENETTI NOTICED IT IN THE BOOTH.

There is no correlation between his velocity and his elbow pain unless he reports issues. It could just been fatigue from the innings. 

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

trap bar dead-lifts are probably one of the safest power lifts you can do, especially how Kopech is setup with the bar slightly raised off the ground.  Personally I only do trap bar deadlifts now.  much easier to lock in form and not round back and risk injury.

Well it depends on the injury. It is stressful on the spine of your form isn't great.

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

There is no correlation between his velocity and his elbow pain unless he reports issues. It could just been fatigue from the innings. 

vehemently disagree.  not only is it correlated in this case it was in hindsight a causal relationship.  He was throwing that speed because of the pain.  I know you want to defend your peers but the Sox' trainers failed epically here.  He should never have made that start.  It probably wouldn't have mattered but you never know.

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Well it depends on the injury. It is stressful on the spine of your form isn't great.

just to talk shop for a minute when I was in my mid 20s and still thought I was a badass and would never get a serious injury this pro body builder saw me doing deadlifts at his gym and we ended up talking.  His philosophy was that the lower back is already one of the strongest parts of your body just from all the other things you ask it to do in daily life and other lifts.  His feeling on deadlifts (olympic bar) is that the risk to benefit ratio was too low to recommend as a lift.  And as a pretty successful body builder with a crazy v torso obviously it didn't hold him back too much.

so from that point on I just stopped doing olympic bar deadlifts and went to the trap bar.  

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

They did better than the Sox, that's for sure.  They ID'd the pain and problem early, did a shitload of diagnostics and shut him down and did PRT and other therapy.  They were pretty successful, getting him to the point where he made another start, but ultimately they had to shut him down and schedule the surgery.  

Contrast that to the situation we have here where you've got dimished velocity, a young kid in pain that doesn't want to show it (just like Lopez) and a coaching and training staff that is completely oblivious.

I gotta question for @ptatc: let's say that as a young trainer working a prestigious MLB job you're watching Kopech warm up.  You're watching him with eagle eyes, as it's your career at stake here and you see him grimacing.  You ask the gun guy to put a gun on him and you're seeing 93-94.  

At this point, does it not BEHOOVE YOU to raise a red flag, send it up the ladder, raise a bit of an alarm?

How the fuck did the Sox let Kopech make that start?

Again, JASON BENETTI NOTICED IT IN THE BOOTH.

Ohtani was already a huge red flag with his elbow the day they signed him.  I think he might have already even had that platelet injection.

Just like expecting a starter who tries to throw 98-100 not to ever get hurt (other than Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson.)

The fact of the matter is that the Royals, Cubs, Astros...heck, even the Indians...most teams other than the Braves (who might have the best current talent in Acuna, Jr.) chose to rebuild more on the position player side and add free agents or via minor league depth trades.

If there’s any fault, it’s thinking the Sox record of keeping pitchers healthy was going to miraculously hold up during an era of baseball where overuse and guys trying to throw the ball through a wall (think Bauer or Kopech) adds up to a long line of billable hours at the offices of Dr. Jobe, Andrews, etc.

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Ohtani was already a huge red flag with his elbow the day they signed him.  I think he might have already even had that platelet injection.

Just like expecting a starter who tries to throw 98-100 not to ever get hurt (other than Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson.)

The fact of the matter is that the Royals, Cubs, Astros...heck, even the Indians...most teams other than the Braves (who might have the best current talent in Acuna, Jr.) chose to rebuild more on the position player side and add free agents or via minor league depth trades.

If there’s any fault, it’s thinking the Sox record of keeping pitchers healthy was going to miraculously hold up during an era of baseball where overuse and guys trying to throw the ball through a wall (think Bauer or Kopech) adds up to a long line of billable hours at the offices of Dr. Jobe, Andrews, etc.

The Sox fucked up.  I'm not gonna sit here and say I saw it coming.  I didn't.  But hindsight is 20/20 and trading for young arms was in hindsight a mistake.

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

vehemently disagree.  not only is it correlated in this case it was in hindsight a causal relationship.  He was throwing that speed because of the pain.  I know you want to defend your peers but the Sox' trainers failed epically here.  He should never have made that start.  It probably wouldn't have mattered but you never know.

It is not correlated because it is not the only reason that velocity can be diminished.  It can be a cause and in this case it looks like it but there are many other reasons. It is not astatistically significant cause.

There’s another obvious counterargument to Hahn and Company.

The fate of the 2015-16 Mets’ super rotation.

One possible Cy Younger winner left in de Grom, lots of “what could have been” with Syndergaard, Harvey, Matz, Wheeler, etc.  

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

just to talk shop for a minute when I was in my mid 20s and still thought I was a badass and would never get a serious injury this pro body builder saw me doing deadlifts at his gym and we ended up talking.  His philosophy was that the lower back is already one of the strongest parts of your body just from all the other things you ask it to do in daily life and other lifts.  His feeling on deadlifts (olympic bar) is that the risk to benefit ratio was too low to recommend as a lift.  And as a pretty successful body builder with a crazy v torso obviously it didn't hold him back too much.

so from that point on I just stopped doing olympic bar deadlifts and went to the trap bar.  

He is not correct from the aspect that the low back is slow twitch muscle mostly and cant generate the force as quickly or as much as fast twitch muscle. That being said if you use good form to protect it, fine.

Ptac, would you trade Rodon this offseason, try to hold on for next trade deadline...or just cross your fingers from here on out and roll the dice on Carlos staying healthy and productive through 2021?

Jesus a couple of you need to buy some Cubbie blue hats and head up to Wrigley Field. The crying and moaning and chicken little act belongs in Lake View

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

The Sox fucked up.  I'm not gonna sit here and say I saw it coming.  I didn't.  But hindsight is 20/20 and trading for young arms was in hindsight a mistake.

It doesn't sounds like there was any indication from kopech that there was an issue. It depends on what he was reporting and I dont think its been reported.

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

It doesn't sounds like there was any indication from kopech that there was an issue. It depends on what he was reporting and I dont think its been reported.

Well said. Maybe you can recommend a good psychiatrist for chitownsportsfan 

Quite frankly, I blame TWTW.

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Ptac, would you trade Rodon this offseason, try to hold on for next trade deadline...or just cross your fingers from here on out and roll the dice on Carlos staying healthy and productive through 2021?

I think asking a trainer to predict a guy's future injury path when he hasn't even examined the guy seems pretty nuts.

1 minute ago, Quinarvy said:

Quite frankly, I blame TWTW.

Or the lack thereof

 

is it too late to fire Greg Walker?

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Ptac, would you trade Rodon this offseason, try to hold on for next trade deadline...or just cross your fingers from here on out and roll the dice on Carlos staying healthy and productive through 2021?

From an injury stand point there really is no reason for worries. However, everyone knows I dislike his follow through and think it will cause issues.

2 minutes ago, AustinIllini said:

Or the lack thereof

 

is it too late to fire Greg Walker?

You're right. A real pitcher would pitch until he tore both arms.