13 hours ago, ptatc said:

I take it you forgot about the first couple months of his starts. He has the ability. Needs to work on consistency.

KC’s starter acquired from Moustakas trade...

On 9/8/2018 at 2:46 PM, Jose Abreu said:

How he's

a. still allowed to post, and

b. actually being taken seriously

is beyond me. Literally every. single. one. of his posts are just fear mongering negativity. It's not even a well-hidden troll job

If the whole board ignores him and/or stops quoting him, it makes it alot better.  

10 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

Not going to lie after the Sale, Q, and Eaton trades I was one hundred percent behind Hahn remaining in charge and seeing the rebuild through now I'm not sure.

This season has been a total disaster not by the record because we all knew we were going to suck but he doesn't move Abreu. He has a down year and gets injured. Doesn't move Avi he's worth a fracton of what he was at the start of this offseason. Drafts an overhyped midget to play 2B with no power.

Has an totally unforced error bringing up kopech for reasons only he knows then he gets TJ meaning we will lose at least a years service time probably two. Doesn't get great returns on the trade he did make.

I created a thread in the offseason entitled trust the process the problem isn't that I put faith in the idea of a rebuild is that Hahn is fundamentally flawed and is incapable of operating a proper rebuild and has no process. The rumors of a Machafo trade in the offseason were dismissed by me out of hand now I'm not so sure

Bringing him up was absolutely the correct move by the Sox. 

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Bringing him up was absolutely the correct move by the Sox. 

Highly debatable.  

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Highly debatable.  

I would disagree. Unless you only wanted him be benched at the end of August next year, if they were competing, due to an innings limit. He needed to extend his innings this year to be ready for a full season next year.

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would disagree. Unless you only wanted him be benched at the end of August next year, if they were competing, due to an innings limit. He needed to extend his innings this year to be ready for a full season next year.

Meh, we've discussed this at length and its spilled milk at this point.

But had he stayed in AAA, he would have for sure gotten 3 more starts (8/21, 8/26 and 8/31 or 9/1) so he still would have surpassed his previous high inning total.  The control was well worth waiting seeing as though it was already late August.  Now, hindsight is 20-20, but it could turn out to be a crippling move.    

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Meh, we've discussed this at length and its spilled milk at this point.

But had he stayed in AAA, he would have for sure gotten 3 more starts (8/21, 8/26 and 8/31 or 9/1) so he still would have surpassed his previous high inning total.  The control was well worth waiting seeing as though it was already late August.  Now, hindsight is 20-20, but it could turn out to be a crippling move.    

Kris Bryant spent half of a season at AAA, before getting sent back briefly in 2015. 

Eloy Jimenez's time in AAA will be less than a half a season when he goes back next year. 

Vlad Jr spent 30 games at AAA.

Peter Alonso has spent about as much time at AAA as Kris Bryant.

All of these guys are causing outrages for spending about half a season at AAA.  Kopech has already spent about a full year at AAA.  If he hadn't been recalled, and had been sent back to AAA to game service time, we will be trying to say that the top pitching prospect in baseball needed parts of three different seasons at AAA, despite the numbers he was putting up.

It is becoming harder to justify the first four scenarios, and those guys are talking about filing grievances.  I have NO idea how you could justify leaving Kopech at AAA AND THEN sending him back to AAA again next year.  I get wanting the control, but let's be realistic here and recognize that these scenarios are NOT the same.

 

24 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Meh, we've discussed this at length and its spilled milk at this point.

But had he stayed in AAA, he would have for sure gotten 3 more starts (8/21, 8/26 and 8/31 or 9/1) so he still would have surpassed his previous high inning total.  The control was well worth waiting seeing as though it was already late August.  Now, hindsight is 20-20, but it could turn out to be a crippling move.    

Not by enough to really make a physical difference. Control in a pitcher is not worth having to shut him down next year. 

i don't see it as a crippling move as he should be ready for 2020. I don't think they were going to compete for the playoffs next year anyway. It's definitely a setback in his development. If he doesn't return, that is a crippling move.

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Kris Bryant spent half of a season at AAA, before getting sent back briefly in 2015. 

Eloy Jimenez's time in AAA will be less than a half a season when he goes back next year. 

Vlad Jr spent 30 games at AAA.

Peter Alonso has spent about as much time at AAA as Kris Bryant.

All of these guys are causing outrages for spending about half a season at AAA.  Kopech has already spent about a full year at AAA.  If he hadn't been recalled, and had been sent back to AAA to game service time, we will be trying to say that the top pitching prospect in baseball needed parts of three different seasons at AAA, despite the numbers he was putting up.

It is becoming harder to justify the first four scenarios, and those guys are talking about filing grievances.  I have NO idea how you could justify leaving Kopech at AAA AND THEN sending him back to AAA again next year.  I get wanting the control, but let's be realistic here and recognize that these scenarios are NOT the same.

 

Yah, it'd be a tough story to spin, but honestly not much tougher than Eloy.  Kopech actually had struggled for significant portions of the AAA season so keeping him there this season wouldn't have caused any more uproar that Guerrero/Eloy.  

Next year would be tough to spin when you send him back to AAA to start the season, as it will be for Eloy.  But we're talking like 2 weeks.  The players, certain media members and fans would b**** and moan, and maybe the player files of grievance.  But there is no precedent for them to win. 

It is what it is at this point - but again, its turned out to be an incredibly costly decision.  Maybe he gets hurt anyway in AAA, but at least he spends the next year and half on the minor league DL. Still sucks, no doubt, but its better than current situation. Maybe he makes it through the season and hurts himself in offseason, or even early next season in AAA.  All scenarios the Sox are in better situation than they find themselves in today.  

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Not by enough to really make a physical difference. Control in a pitcher is not worth having to shut him down next year. 

i don't see it as a crippling move as he should be ready for 2020. I don't think they were going to compete for the playoffs next year anyway. It's definitely a setback in his development. If he doesn't return, that is a crippling move.

I don't see how anyone can spin it that losing ~20% of control of a front of the rotation pitcher is anything but crippling.  Its an absolute kick straight to the nuts.  He was one of the 3 main pillars of this rebuild, and at this point its tough to count on him for much of anything until 2021.  And which point he'll have spent 2 seasons and change on the active roster if the Sox keep him on the MLB DL. 

Edited September 10, 20187 yr by ChiSox59

is there zero chance of Kopech returning by August or September 2019?

23 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Is Lopez going to turn out to be a decent starter?  Let’s wait and see how he does against a playoff-caliber roster...and it’s not like Walker is projected to be a Gold Glove level outfielder, he’s a better version of Call/Fisher from previous drafts, sure, but how much better and where does he play?  For every “Walker was the best pure hitter in the draft” argument, there will be the retort that we said the same thing about Zach Collins, who isn’t currently listed on any Top 100 lists.

You can make the argument we need a starting pitcher at the back end and a higher upside CFer a lot more over the next 2-3 seasons, unless we are going to completely write off 2020 as well.  Before long, we will be arguing that we need to trade Moncada because we’ll only be competitive in his three most expensive arbitration years.

Then, we’ll basically be the Pirates.

You mean like the Yankees roster that he went through with ease about two weeks ago?

12 minutes ago, Real said:

is there zero chance of Kopech returning by August or September 2019?

Burdi had his the last week of July in 2017 and reported to AZL for rehab in August of 2018.  A similar pace would have him ready about the time that the season would be ending at the major league level.

so it sounds like the healing process alone takes over 6 months

Just now, Real said:

so it sounds like the healing process alone takes over 6 months

Yes.  Looks like he started throwing the very end of January.

https://southsideshowdown.com/2018/01/30/white-sox-zack-burdi-begins-throwing/

On 9/8/2018 at 10:28 AM, LittleHurt05 said:

The inability of the front office to develop young talent is why the rebuild was necessary, yet that same front office is now in charge of developing young talent again. Really is mind blowing, but you cant fire the owner so here we are.

The fundamental difference between the rebuilds that the Cubs and Astros underwent vs. the one the White Sox are currently slogging through is that the other two teams replaced incompetent owners with competent ones, and those new owners immediately replaced the incompetent front offices they inherited with new, competent ones, and are each now presiding over powerhouse organizations as a result.  Meanwhile, the status quo remains in place over on the South Side.    

3 hours ago, Real said:

so it sounds like the healing process alone takes over 6 months

Roughly. The tendon needs to essentially die and regenerate.  Believe it or not when you take a tendon (they usually use the palmaris longus  if they have one or the plantaris) and put it where a ligament was, the tendon regenerates to have more of the physiologic properties of a ligament. Some speculate that it is response to stress but no one is really sure why this happens.

Anyway the dying and regeneration process alone is 3-4 months. 

Edited September 10, 20187 yr by ptatc

7 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

The fundamental difference between the rebuilds that the Cubs and Astros underwent vs. the one the White Sox are currently slogging through is that the other two teams replaced incompetent owners with competent ones, and those new owners immediately replaced the incompetent front offices they inherited with new, competent ones, and are each now presiding over powerhouse organizations as a result.  Meanwhile, the status quo remains in place over on the South Side.    

When did the Astros get new owners? I thought is was around 2010. That would long before the decision to rebuild started.

 One of the biggest failures in professional sports is trying to plan to avoid injury.

The only few positives about the TJ surgery is the timing of it and the fact that it is NOT a death sentence on his career. I'm honestly not that shocked that he needs it looking at the trend of young hard throwing starters over the past 3-4 years.

Edited September 10, 20187 yr by soxfan2014

3 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

 One of the biggest failures in professional sports is trying to plan to avoid injury.

From a  management perspective, I agree. However, the strength/conditioning staff and medical should focus on preventing them.

22 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

The only few positives about the TJ surgery is the timing of it and the fact that it is NOT a death sentence on his career. I'm honestly not that shocked that he needs it looking at the trend of young hard throwing starters over the past 3-4 years.

And it will only effect one season.  He will be able to be ready to go by 2020 spring training, even with 2019 full flushed down the toilet.

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

And it will only effect one season.  He will be able to be ready to go by 2020 spring training, even with 2019 full flushed down the toilet.

Yeah and they're losing him in a year they likely weren't going to compete.

4 hours ago, soxfan49 said:

You mean like the Yankees roster that he went through with ease about two weeks ago?

Lopez on the Royals...

3 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

 One of the biggest failures in professional sports is trying to plan to avoid injury.

See Nats/Strasburg.  Their recent legacy will be having all that talent on one roster, yet never winning a playoff series.