$$$$$$Money

[WBWSF]

1) Somebody posted  that if JR sold the team now the taxes would be about $550 million dollars. Does anybody know what the taxes would be  if he passed away? Would it be alot less than $550 million dollars?   2) The Milwaukee Brewers drew 2.6 million fans in 2025. I read where  their projected 2026 payroll is $136 million. They indicate that they might not be  making any money with that projected payroll. Is that possible?  Its hard to believe they wouldn't  be making money.

[oldsox]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

1) Somebody posted  that if JR sold the team now the taxes would be about $550 million dollars. Does anybody know what the taxes would be  if he passed away? Would it be alot less than $550 million dollars?   2) The Milwaukee Brewers drew 2.6 million fans in 2025. I read where  their projected 2026 payroll is $136 million. They indicate that they might not be  making any money with that projected payroll. Is that possible?  Its hard to believe they wouldn't  be making money.

Lots of soft dollars on a baseball team. Ask any CPA.

Plus, like any privately owned asset, if there are a lot of dollars involved, you can offset or hide them simply by paying yourself and family members whatever salary is needed to bring down profits.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, WBWSF said:

1) Somebody posted  that if JR sold the team now the taxes would be about $550 million dollars. Does anybody know what the taxes would be  if he passed away? Would it be alot less than $550 million dollars?   2) The Milwaukee Brewers drew 2.6 million fans in 2025. I read where  their projected 2026 payroll is $136 million. They indicate that they might not be  making any money with that projected payroll. Is that possible?  Its hard to believe they wouldn't  be making money.

They only have let's say roughly 45% of the team between JR and sons for argument's sake.

Let's just guess JR 30% sons 15% Ishbia 45% and remaining minority shareholders at 10%.

So $600,000 million minus the original sale price in 1981.

Assuming a 20% rate here, it would be around $120 million in cap gains taxes at a $2 billion valuation.

When he dies...his kids would inherit the shares if they're not first sold to Ishbia and their cost basis would reset to the value at the time of death...let's say $1.8 billion for our tax purposes.

The sons could actually end up with a credit or write off based on the likely fall in franchise value from 2025 through 2029 (also significantly reduced RSN numbers), barring a new stadium deal.

Not insignifant money...but compared to LAD numbers, it's a rounding error to hold the team basically hostage for almost a half decade.

But JR has arguably most of his wealth centered in the less liquid Bulls Sox real estate and that $120 million hit is not insignificant assuming he is relatively cash poor for a billionaire and also sitting on his share of $125-150 million in additional debt borrowed/created from Covid 2020 through the 2023 payroll in the $180 million range and 2024 payroll debt overhang as well.

Edited Saturday at 03:25 PM by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Pretty sure rate should be 28% for corporations.

$168 million cap gains tax hit if sold before death.

Basically one year's White Sox payroll from 2023-2024.

 

And somehow existing debt service has to be accounted for as well...

 

Let's look at the Twins' situation for a parallel...important note is that Ishbia might not have been the control person (eventually) in Minnesota...or the Pohlad family (grandchildren) was unwilling to put a "sell by" date to it.

 

Sokution to Twins' debt crisis: Take on minority partners

After failing to find a buyer at their targeted valuation (around $1.7 billion), the Pohlads elected to take on minority partners to pay down over $400 (now $500) million in existing debt.

https://twinsdaily.com/news-rumors/minnesota-twins/the-latest-on-minnesota-twins-evolving-ownership-situation-r19457/#:~:text=After failing to find a buyer at their,pay down over %24400 million in existing debt.

 

 

"Once an offer hit the table that allowed them to keep control of the team AND pay off their debts, their decision became clear.

But in 2024, the heirs of the late financier Carl Pohlad faced a reckoning: The team’s nine-figure debt was growing as revenues from ticket sales and game broadcasts dwindled. The debt, now equal to $500 million, is about a third of the team’s entire market value.

“That was really the driver,” Joe Pohlad, the Twins executive chair, said in a recent interview, revealing a debt amount well above any previously reported estimate.

In the time that’s passed since the Twins were taken off the market, we were lead to believe that the Pohlads’ debt was over $400 million, but never got an exact amount until recently.

Where did the Minnesota Twins’ debt come from?

Behind the scenes, the Pohlads claimed it was a combination of a decade-worth of over-spending on talent, lagging attendance, FanDuel Sports North (RSN) fallout and losses from the 2020 COVID season.

https://www.minnesotasportsfan.com/minnesota-twins/pohlads-reveal-mn-twins-debt-hint-future-spending/

Edited Saturday at 04:43 PM by caulfield12

[77 Hitmen]

3 hours ago, WBWSF said:

1) Somebody posted  that if JR sold the team now the taxes would be about $550 million dollars. Does anybody know what the taxes would be  if he passed away? Would it be alot less than $550 million dollars?   2) The Milwaukee Brewers drew 2.6 million fans in 2025. I read where  their projected 2026 payroll is $136 million. They indicate that they might not be  making any money with that projected payroll. Is that possible?  Its hard to believe they wouldn't  be making money.

1) As @caulfield12 said, the value gets reset for heirs.   If I'm not mistaken, let's say your parents bought a vacation home decades ago for $200,000 and it's worth $700k now.  If they pass, you inherit the property, and decide to sell it, your capital gains would be based on the value it had at the time you inherited it.  You would not be subject to tax on the $500k increase in value of the property from the time your parents purchased it.  

2) There's a lot more to generating revenue for a franchise than number of tickets sold.  Local TV revenue, corporate sponsorship, luxury suites, and even price of the tickets are much higher in they are in the major markets than in Milwaukee and the State of Wisconsin.  The Dodgers, for example, get over $300M per year in local TV revenue.  The Brewers get about 1/10th of that. Plus, some teams generate revenue from the developments around their team's stadium (e.g.; Braves, Cubs, Cardinals) whereas Am Fam Field is surrounded by parking lots.   

Would the Brewers be losing money if they jacked up their payroll to major market level?  None of us would know for sure unless MLB teams agreed to open their books (which they won't).  But there was a report earlier explaining how the Pirates and Twins are losing money.  At least the Twins ($400M) and White Sox (~$150M?) have a sizable debt.  When the Brewers say this, it sounds plausible.  When the Yankees say they're not making money, that's what I find hard to believe.  

Do I feel sorry for ANY of the rich MLB owners?  NO.  But I also find it an incredible coincidence that all the small market teams can't keep up with big market payroll while almost all the major market teams are able to spend big bucks on high-prices free agents.  NYY, NYM, BOS, PHI, TOR, LAD, LAA, CHC, HOU, TEX, ATL - probably a couple of others I'm missing - these are the HAVES.  Teams like MIL, TB, and CLE that actually try to win are the Have Nots.  They're NOT going to spend $200M on players like Dylan Cease.  

 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

1) As @caulfield12 said, the value gets reset for heirs.   If I'm not mistaken, let's say your parents bought a vacation home decades ago for $200,000 and it's worth $700k now.  If they pass, you inherit the property, and decide to sell it, your capital gains would be based on the value it had at the time you inherited it.  You would not be subject to tax on the $500k increase in value of the property from the time your parents purchased it.  

2) There's a lot more to generating revenue for a franchise than number of tickets sold.  Local TV revenue, corporate sponsorship, luxury suites, and even price of the tickets are much higher in they are in the major markets than in Milwaukee and the State of Wisconsin.  The Dodgers, for example, get over $300M per year in local TV revenue.  The Brewers get about 1/10th of that. Plus, some teams generate revenue from the developments around their team's stadium (e.g.; Braves, Cubs, Cardinals) whereas Am Fam Field is surrounded by parking lots.   

Would the Brewers be losing money if they jacked up their payroll to major market level?  None of us would know for sure unless MLB teams agreed to open their books (which they won't).  But there was a report earlier explaining how the Pirates and Twins are losing money.  At least the Twins ($400M) and White Sox (~$150M?) have a sizable debt.  When the Brewers say this, it sounds plausible.  When the Yankees say they're not making money, that's what I find hard to believe.  

Do I feel sorry for ANY of the rich MLB owners?  NO.  But I also find it an incredible coincidence that all the small market teams can't keep up with big market payroll while almost all the major market teams are able to spend big bucks on high-prices free agents.  NYY, NYM, BOS, PHI, TOR, LAD, LAA, CHC, HOU, TEX, ATL - probably a couple of others I'm missing - these are the HAVES.  Teams like MIL, TB, and CLE that actually try to win are the Have Nots.  They're NOT going to spend $200M on players like Dylan Cease.  

 

We can argue about SD (quickly returning to mid market, up for sale reportedly) and SFG if they can land some more big fish like an Imai, for example...AZ (Burnes deal, Bumgarner prior to that) and Seattle are both in a sort of crossover region between mid markets and big spenders.

For now: SD and AZ (mids, debt issues), SFG and Seattle in that top tier or just right behind it.

[77 Hitmen]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

We can argue about SD (quickly returning to mid market, up for sale reportedly) and SFG if they can land some more big fish like an Imai, for example...AZ (Burnes deal, Bumgarner prior to that) and Seattle are both in a sort of crossover region between mid markets and big spenders.

For now: SD and AZ (mids, debt issues), SFG and Seattle in that top tier or just right behind it.

Ah yes, I forgot the Giants as one of the major market teams.  They have the Bay Area all to themselves now.  High-price area with a huge corporate presence and they play at one of the most popular ballparks in the league.

I agree that SD is an interesting situation.  Sort of a unique market - very popular ballpark, only city with a MLB but no NFL/NBA/NHL team, but also a metro area that's somewhat boxed in.  Yeah, I'd consider SD, AZ, and SEA as mid-market.  WAS should be too and perhaps DET.  Colorado should be mid market, but they're obviously a total mess.

Of course, we all know about the Sox.  Should be major market team, but under JR's stewardship, he's managed to make them small market nested within the 3rd largest metro area.  

Edited Saturday at 05:32 PM by 77 Hitmen

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

Ah yes, I forgot the Giants as one of the major market teams.  They have the Bay Area all to themselves now.  High-price area with a huge corporate presence and they play at one of the most popular ballparks in the league.

I agree that SD is an interesting situation.  Sort of a unique market - very popular ballpark, only city with a MLB but no NFL/NBA/NHL team, but also a metro area that's somewhat boxed in.  Yeah, I'd consider SD, AZ, and SEA as mid-market.  WAS should be too and perhaps DET.  Colorado should be mid market, but they're obviously a total mess.

Of course, we all know about the Sox.  Should be major market team, but under JR's stewardship, he's managed to make them small market nested within the 3rd largest metro area.  

Detroit will answer that question depending on what they decide to do with Skubal and who they sign going into a pivotal year for that franchise.

Max Clark and McGonigle are banging on the door, too.

[caulfield12]

Was reading a Brewers' forum after the Williams signing and thought this was interesting.

Lots of fretting over a $136 million payroll and whether they will have to trade Peralta Megill or Mears to free up space for deadline deals in mid-summer.

Ofc some argued this is the same exact going on a decade with MIL and owner Attanasio.

 

"PLUS, the Brewers had some pretty large capital expenditures in the past few years. 
1-Dominican Republican Academy. State of the art facility in AZ and the Carolina Affiliate and their investment in their ~75M stadium. 

They had Rick Schlesinger on to talk about those investments and while they initially committed around $20M to the first round of the DR facility@(when it had just 22 Dorms) the 31 Acre facility now has 120-some dorms and the price ballooned both there as well as the AZ facility that was originally projected to cost $60M and due to Covid, related supply shortages, it escalated to over $100M. 

ALSO during this time, the Low A Carolina Affiliate... which we don't know what they spent to buy the team (about $20M) or to invest in the facility (estimated at $35M). That, as well as Miller Park investments/renovations is a WHOLE lot of money from ~2018 onwards and they likely have pretty significant debt payments each year when added up cumulatively."

 

https://brewerfanatic.com/forums/topic/46422-brewers-reportedly-concerned-about-payroll/#comments

 

But I hope Attanasio doesn’t echo comments like this, because it would make him look quite out of touch. You’re a really rich dude and you spent about 40% of your revenue on payroll last year.

ONE more comment regarding this... which... just drives me nuts in general, but Mark Attanasio owns about 34-39% of the Brewers. He's their principal owners, not the majority. 

But the 40%... that's... really "out of touch." Especially for fans who I think know better. That's a good talking point when you're trying to troll another team, but... it lacks ANY nuance that I would expect.

Edited Tuesday at 04:19 AM by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

These guys spend so much money on teams, yet they claim they can’t make any money so they don’t even try to compete, and refuse to sell. Something doesn’t add up. Accounting tricks help them cry poor. Mark Cuban had to say he only made a profit 2 seasons with the Mavs,  because that is what the tax returns say and he knows the current administration would love to charge him with something.

[caulfield12]

39 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

These guys spend so much money on teams, yet they claim they can’t make any money so they don’t even try to compete, and refuse to sell. Something doesn’t add up. Accounting tricks help them cry poor. Mark Cuban had to say he only made a profit 2 seasons with the Mavs,  because that is what the tax returns say and he knows the current administration would love to charge him with something.

Mortgage fraud!!!

If the Brewers have the season they did, including postseason and increased season ticket sales for 2026 and yet still can't sustain a $136 million payroll...without trading Peralta, just not sure what to say.

OFC they have traded both Hader and Devin Williams the last couple of years and survived, losing Adames, etc., but one of those seasons their veteran trades really knocked them back.

Some argue that Woodruff taking the QO threw their off season plans off completely, but it's really nuts to trade Peralta and/or Megill, especially with the Cubs and Cards taking steps back.

 

Rangers Unlikely To Have Payroll Room For J.T. Realmuto

2025/12/rangers-unlikely-to-have-payroll-room-for-j-t-realmuto.html

 

Edited 5 hours ago by caulfield12