2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

@caulfield12 sure has a problem with authority, doesn’t he?

I wonder if he even obeys his paramount leader??

Fair enough.

But a certain someone's husband mysteriously spent 6-8 years in the political capital of China, aka Beijing.

Also HQ for the Chinese version of the CIA just down the street from Tiananmen Square.

Who is HIS leader, lol?

Edited yesterday at 05:53 PM1 day by caulfield12

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Beckham was out of the org by the time Getz got here. Fulmer was pitching in the bigs before Getz's time. Colas was acquired after Getz's time as director of development. So, no. I don't believe he had anything to do with rushing those guys.

It's kind of known that the White Sox would draft college players who were mostly "developed" in college and could shoot through the system. No, I don't think the director of development was making the decision to promote players prematurely, and then to allow them to languish in the bigs without proper support.

The main evidence we have that Getz wanted to do things differently is that once he became GM, he started making wholesale changes to development that resulted in tangible success. I can't see how the way Bill Veeck handled a prospect's timeline in the 1970s has any bearing on how the organization is run today.

You make a number of great points.

The failures of the past don't guarantee continued failure, or success. Yet, for decades franchise like the Yankees keep winning and franchise like the W. Sox do not.

I wonder what the differences are? Why doesn't hiring some great new talent changes things in a more permanent way?

Second question I'm curious about, what did Getz do in player development or as the assistant GM that you feel we should use to evaluate his almost ten years with the club?

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Fair enough.

But a certain someone's husband mysteriously spent 6-8 years in the political capital of China, aka Beijing.

Also HQ for the Chinese version of the CIA just down the street from Tiananmen Square.

Who is HIS leader, lol?

Reported again for political talk

1 minute ago, Bonemer, I Hardly Know Her said:

Reported again for political talk

You can report your fellow poster for casting aspersions on any expat living in China while you're at it...seems like a bit of a double standard that this has been brought up repeatedly.

1600 is the one who has nationalized over 30 companies/industries and intervened in a plethora of markets.

21 minutes ago, Texsox said:

You make a number of great points.

The failures of the past don't guarantee continued failure, or success. Yet, for decades franchise like the Yankees keep winning and franchise like the W. Sox do not.

I wonder what the differences are? Why doesn't hiring some great new talent changes things in a more permanent way?

Second question I'm curious about, what did Getz do in player development or as the assistant GM that you feel we should use to evaluate his almost ten years with the club?

2009 last WS win for NYY

Only four years removed from Sox 2005.

Getz has been left with bottom 5 payrolls to work with, hamstrung by JR's debts and penurious ways...owner more concerned with profitability than winning the AL Central since 2020-21.

Suffered by association with Hahn's bloated/inefficient 2021-23 spending.

43 minutes ago, Texsox said:

You make a number of great points.

The failures of the past don't guarantee continued failure, or success. Yet, for decades franchise like the Yankees keep winning and franchise like the W. Sox do not.

I wonder what the differences are? Why doesn't hiring some great new talent changes things in a more permanent way?

Second question I'm curious about, what did Getz do in player development or as the assistant GM that you feel we should use to evaluate his almost ten years with the club?

Jack McDowell told me this one time and it helps answer your question (paraphrasing since I don't remember the exact quote):

'The White Sox haven't won because they've had bad owners, bad general managers, bad field managers and bad players...'

Also a big factor is that the ownership groups the Sox have had appeared to care more about things like profit margin, breaking the MLBPA and showing who's boss than winning.

The Yankees have the financial resources plus the only goal is to win... everything else is secondary. That attitude goes a hell of a long way!

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

You make a number of great points.

The failures of the past don't guarantee continued failure, or success. Yet, for decades franchise like the Yankees keep winning and franchise like the W. Sox do not.

I wonder what the differences are? Why doesn't hiring some great new talent changes things in a more permanent way?

Second question I'm curious about, what did Getz do in player development or as the assistant GM that you feel we should use to evaluate his almost ten years with the club?

1) The Yankees had an ostentatious owner who wouldn't settle for losing for decades. He used the attractiveness of the NY market and it's larger revenue streams to sign the top FAs. Over the years they've developed an organizational philosophy to drafting and developing that is successful in areas, at times. They don't spend like they used to. They went to the World Series two years ago and have been to the playoffs 10 of the last 12 years, and haven't had a losing season since 1992.

You mentioned "50+ years". In that time John Allyn and Bill Veeck couldn't afford to run a baseball team, and they almost relocated a couple of times. JR started out sinking money into the roster, then slowly pulled back. He will spend when they're competitive, sometimes not very intelligently.

Ron Schueller parlayed 4 great drafts under Larry Himes into a successful decade. KW had an actual philosophy that we know didn't include "develop extensively from within". I think it's pretty evident Hahn and KW weren't on the same page. The focus of the draft was college guys who could move quickly.

The Yankees are more successful internationally than the Sox. We know that, we know why, and it has little to do with development. The Yanks also had a philosophy on pitching for years which is successful.

2) What did Getz do that I feel you should use to evaluate him now? Why are we still having this discussion? He ran development. Guys like Madrigal, Vaughn, Roberts, Jimenez, Yoan all made the bigs. 4 of those 5 were injured too much to contribute. Vaughn was rushed and played out of position. He either ran development the way he was asked to, or he ignored every plea from above to modernize and bring in targeted help. And still kept his job because JR liked him and wanted to keep watching draft picks he paid serious money to get released to go sell real estate. To believe the later, you have to imagine Getz is a manipulative organizational cancer who will willingly fail to indict and remove those above him so he could rise to the top, inherit a horrible team that will be his reputation, lose big for two years on the gamble he knows exactly how to build a winning organization. He's either stupid OR ambitious to an unhealthy degree.

47 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Jack McDowell told me this one time and it helps answer your question (paraphrasing since I don't remember the exact quote):

'The White Sox haven't won because they've had bad owners, bad general managers, bad field managers and bad players...'

Also a big factor is that the ownership groups the Sox have had appeared to care more about things like profit margin, breaking the MLBPA and showing who's boss than winning.

The Yankees have the financial resources plus the only goal is to win... everything else is secondary. That attitude goes a hell of a long way!

With the resources the Yankees have, I would have expected them to go a little farther, or at least as far as the White Sox did in a bad year for the AL. Tampa is beatable. If we were fans of the Yankees here, I can only imagine the screaming about how everyone should be fired. The fact they didn't hit opening day with better options than Ryan McMahon, Anthony Volpe and Jasson Dominguez is shocking. There was a FA market last winter they could have participated in to create some heft in that lineup. They can't even keep their FA starting pitchers healthy. Just think of the stories that would be trotted out if we had Cole, Rodon and Fried missing 41 starts between them.

33 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

With the resources the Yankees have, I would have expected them to go a little farther, or at least as far as the White Sox did in a bad year for the AL. Tampa is beatable. If we were fans of the Yankees here, I can only imagine the screaming about how everyone should be fired. The fact they didn't hit opening day with better options than Ryan McMahon, Anthony Volpe and Jasson Dominguez is shocking. There was a FA market last winter they could have participated in to create some heft in that lineup. They can't even keep their FA starting pitchers healthy. Just think of the stories that would be trotted out if we had Cole, Rodon and Fried missing 41 starts between them.

What if I told you that Yankees fans don't just sit back and make a bunch of excuses for ownership, management, and coaching? They don't sit around blaming past administrations for their failures, and actually want better from their leadership? Of all of the fanbases in baseball, the absolutely last one who is going to be pretending that all is all right because they got to the playoffs. Their fan base has an expectation of winning, and doesn't view it as something that should be an occasional surprise in which everyone deserves awards and praise for achieving. They will do plenty of screaming if anything short of a world championship happens. Of all fan bases to act like you will NOT see meltdown, the Yankees are the craziest one of all, maybe in all of professional American sports. It might also come as a surprise to you that they also have an ownership group who is willing to spend on their roster. Crazy, I know, but it is a true story. Wait until you find out that the biggest contract in Sox history would rank somewhere around the 20th biggest in Yankees history, but I will save that for another day. I am sure your pearls will be getting a big enough work out.

@WestEddy do you think the Yankee ownership's willingness to bring in people from outside the organization is a plus, or do you prefer promoting from within? Is there value in promoting from within? I believe JR mentioned not needing to bring Getz up to speed with the organization as a reason to promote him instead of bringing in someone new.

That doesn't sound like the owner wanted change. Maybe that's why the history keeps repeating?

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

What if I told you that Yankees fans don't just sit back and make a bunch of excuses for ownership, management, and coaching? They don't sit around blaming past administrations for their failures, and actually want better from their leadership?

I would ask you which past administration they were blaming? Cashman has been GM for about 26 years. So, nice hypothetical, but that one's irrelevant. Maybe Yankee fans don't "make excuses", but I could probably count up the excuses made for the Guardians and Yankees here for not winning it all in the last decade(s) because "at least they've been there". Y'all kneel down before that string of not winning the big prize and worship it. I could mock the Dodgers for being on the verge of elimination, and a dozen posters would barrel in with their excuses. If I called for Cashman to be fired, y'all would excoriate me. It's amazing how many apologists the Astros, Guardians, Yankees, Padres all have here when I make fun of those teams.

I'd guess you would call that perspective. You're not an avid fan of the Yanks, so you can see how they try to win, and how the playoffs is a crapshoot based on a single starting pitcher getting hot for two games, or a hitter going on a heater for a week. Now pretend I have perspective and can understand what Getz took over and how far this organization has come in 3 years.

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

I would ask you which past administration they were blaming? Cashman has been GM for about 26 years. So, nice hypothetical, but that one's irrelevant. Maybe Yankee fans don't "make excuses", but I could probably count up the excuses made for the Guardians and Yankees here for not winning it all in the last decade(s) because "at least they've been there". Y'all kneel down before that string of not winning the big prize and worship it. I could mock the Dodgers for being on the verge of elimination, and a dozen posters would barrel in with their excuses. If I called for Cashman to be fired, y'all would excoriate me. It's amazing how many apologists the Astros, Guardians, Yankees, Padres all have here when I make fun of those teams.

I'd guess you would call that perspective. You're not an avid fan of the Yanks, so you can see how they try to win, and how the playoffs is a crapshoot based on a single starting pitcher getting hot for two games, or a hitter going on a heater for a week. Now pretend I have perspective and can understand what Getz took over and how far this organization has come in 3 years.

"I could"... as if you didn't just go after the Yankees in your never ending Sox sales job... or literally mention the Dodgers...

16 minutes ago, Texsox said:

@WestEddy do you think the Yankee ownership's willingness to bring in people from outside the organization is a plus, or do you prefer promoting from within? Is there value in promoting from within? I believe JR mentioned not needing to bring Getz up to speed with the organization as a reason to promote him instead of bringing in someone new.

That doesn't sound like the owner wanted change. Maybe that's why the history keeps repeating?

Or, you could just state your arguments without doing this questioning thing to make me type what you want to put out there, then scold me that "I'm not answering your question".

Brian Cashman worked with the Yankees for 8 years before they promoted him to GM. He was hired because George Steinbrenner knew Cashman's dad. That seems pretty unwilling to mix it up and bring in differing opinions. Getz has just staffed the organization with multiple outside hires. So is that your crafty way of asking me if I think the Yankees' way of nepo-hiring from within is preferable to the White Sox way of hiring from outside? The Yankees' success shows that there was value in promoting from within.

I feel that when an owner fires the exec-VP and GM on the same day during a 100-loss season, that says very loudly that he wants change. If Getz got in JR's ear and convinced him he could take over and not make any changes, the joke's on Reinsdorf, because this organization and team look a lot different from the 2023 version.

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

"I could"... as if you didn't just go after the Yankees in your never ending Sox sales job... or literally mention the Dodgers...

I understand. It's scary to play a thought experiment that steps outside your comfort zone of blaming, name-calling, moving the goalposts and making excuses. Really. Think about it. Maybe I'm not "making excuses". Maybe I just have the ability to put it all in perspective.

13 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I understand. It's scary to play a thought experiment that steps outside your comfort zone of blaming, name-calling, moving the goalposts and making excuses. Really. Think about it. Maybe I'm not "making excuses". Maybe I just have the ability to put it all in perspective.

Right. The "perspective" of what is the best light for the Sox. Funny how that works.

My fav part about bonemer is we don’t have to force him to be a SS

This thread is "Gold, Jerry Gold".

Presently this ranks just behind "The 78+ The Railyard = the future of the Sox and Fire" as my fav.

Yet over they past 50 years the Yankees average 92 wins per season and the White Sox 80 wins per season.

It's not too small of a sample size. It's mostly modern post free agency baseball.

Why do I worry that the team will continue to make the same mistakes they have for 50 years? Because the history keeps repeating. Could this be the positive little bump among the negative? I would say it's very likely.

14 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Yet over they past 50 years the Yankees average 92 wins per season and the White Sox 80 wins per season.

It's not too small of a sample size. It's mostly modern post free agency baseball.

Why do I worry that the team will continue to make the same mistakes they have for 50 years? Because the history keeps repeating. Could this be the positive little bump among the negative? I would say it's very likely.

But how many since Getz got here? Oh wait...

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

I would ask you which past administration they were blaming? Cashman has been GM for about 26 years. So, nice hypothetical, but that one's irrelevant. Maybe Yankee fans don't "make excuses", but I could probably count up the excuses made for the Guardians and Yankees here for not winning it all in the last decade(s) because "at least they've been there". Y'all kneel down before that string of not winning the big prize and worship it. I could mock the Dodgers for being on the verge of elimination, and a dozen posters would barrel in with their excuses. If I called for Cashman to be fired, y'all would excoriate me. It's amazing how many apologists the Astros, Guardians, Yankees, Padres all have here when I make fun of those teams.

I'd guess you would call that perspective. You're not an avid fan of the Yanks, so you can see how they try to win, and how the playoffs is a crapshoot based on a single starting pitcher getting hot for two games, or a hitter going on a heater for a week. Now pretend I have perspective and can understand what Getz took over and how far this organization has come in 3 years.

Okay WEddy

let's hear your insightful ideas on what the Padres could/should have done to be even more successful as a franchise, as the smallest market franchise in the NL West by far???

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

I understand. It's scary to play a thought experiment that steps outside your comfort zone of blaming, name-calling, moving the goalposts and making excuses. Really. Think about it. Maybe I'm not "making excuses". Maybe I just have the ability to put it all in perspective.

Perspective requires a broader look. If you look at the last two years, you see a rebuilding team doing some correct things. If you look at the last 50, you see a franchise that’s been rebuilding the same mistakes.

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Or, you could just state your arguments without doing this questioning thing to make me type what you want to put out there, then scold me that "I'm not answering your question".

Brian Cashman worked with the Yankees for 8 years before they promoted him to GM. He was hired because George Steinbrenner knew Cashman's dad. That seems pretty unwilling to mix it up and bring in differing opinions. Getz has just staffed the organization with multiple outside hires. So is that your crafty way of asking me if I think the Yankees' way of nepo-hiring from within is preferable to the White Sox way of hiring from outside? The Yankees' success shows that there was value in promoting from within.

I feel that when an owner fires the exec-VP and GM on the same day during a 100-loss season, that says very loudly that he wants change. If Getz got in JR's ear and convinced him he could take over and not make any changes, the joke's on Reinsdorf, because this organization and team look a lot different from the 2023 version.

Hiring from outside?

Brian Bannister

Watson

Jin Wong

Jirschele's son

Grifol

there are two more i'm forgetting

Doug Sisson maybe

advice from Dayton Moore

He basically brought over half the staff of the Royals...

Edited yesterday at 11:22 PM1 day by caulfield12

29 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Perspective requires a broader look. If you look at the last two years, you see a rebuilding team doing some correct things. If you look at the last 50, you see a franchise that’s been rebuilding the same mistakes.

As far as how front offices conduct themselves, it's probably an entirely different game from 10-15 years ago. Nothing that happened in the late 1970s matters when discussing how a 3-year-old front office is operating today. Just looking at the last 36, Himes had 4 great #1 picks in a row. Schueller took over, and about half of his seasons were successful with that core of Thomas, Durham, Robin, Karko, Black Jack, A-Fern, Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez. KW rolled it over to Lee, Maggs, Valentin, and remnants of the White Flag trade. He kept the team mostly competitive in a period when a single wild card was in play.

I don't know what "rebuilding the same mistakes" means. Do you mean that the team rebuilds, grows old, then crashes in cycles? Himes, Schueller, KW, Hahn and Getz all seem to be different styles of building a team. If you're just being cynical and saying everything's going to fail because White Sox, then you go on, then. They certainly seem to be aware of previous international failures, drafting and developmental shortcomings, an inability or neglect in supporting prospects once they hit the bigs and needed adjustments - and they seem to be addressing them.

Again, if you feel that Reinsdorf is going to sabatoge everything so that it fails because he's cheap and wants to finish in 2nd place, you would have to give me some evidence that's happening right now beyond "but hey, White Sox, you know?"

44 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Okay WEddy

let's hear your insightful ideas on what the Padres could/should have done to be even more successful as a franchise, as the smallest market franchise in the NL West by far???

I don't really follow the Padres, so why would I have an insightful treatise on their recent history? You seem to be distracted by me naming the Padres in an example - from the greater point that I'm only doing the same analysis that everyone would give any team I decided to mock for their World Series Championship failures.

If I brought up the Mariners (who have made the playoffs less than the White Sox in the last 7 years), there would be a resounding chorus of "Yeah, but..."s.