Wong & Owens Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Well, here's my .02 on the issue, and let me preface this by saying I mean no offense to any "believers" on this site, nor do I claim to have any indisputable proof that I am right and religious folk are wrong. This is just how I honestly view things. 1) I believe that ALL organized religions are folklore and great storytelling, which were twisted by some clever folk into a means for exerting power over as many people as they could draw in. Nothing non-natural has been responsible for the killing of more innocent people over time than religion. 2) I believe that-- just as we giggle at the thought of worshipping cats, or trees, or bugs-- future generations will shake their heads at the concept of worshipping Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, et al. 3) I believe that something more powerful created the earth and put us here, but I think something that awesome would have better things to do than create a planet full of people, tell them good=salvation, bad=hell, then make it so difficult to be good that, by religious text standards, about 99% of people fail at it. 4) I believe that at some point the country stepped over the line separating church and state. If a religion deems marriage to be a man and woman only, then that's their right, but then the state shouldn't have butted in with tax laws, divorce laws, et al pertaining to marriage. Once this occured, any legislation to deny these same rights to gay people makes me sick and goes against everything this country was founded to protect. Rant over, back to work........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxy Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I'm all for loving relationships...but it's clear as day it's wrong. It's not clear to me. I'm not going to argue theologically on this point. I've taken too many Christian theology courses and had this argument too many times to try any more. I grew up a Christian, and left the church--but I still think I know the Bible better than most of the kids at my school that use it to condemn people...I guess I would like to only point out here that Jesus made Jewish law null and void by proclaiming himself the new Torah (The Bread of Life--the new Manna). And if anyone can find a statement coming from Jesus on the illegalness regarding homosexuality I will be more convinced of JESUS' standing on the issue. But Paul--well, according to Paul, I am supposed to have my head covered at all time AND never teach, so please forgive me if I am leary of his teaching... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Well, here's my .02 on the issue, and let me preface this by saying I mean no offense to any "believers" on this site, nor do I claim to have any indisputable proof that I am right and religious folk are wrong. This is just how I honestly view things. 1) I believe that ALL organized religions are folklore and great storytelling, which were twisted by some clever folk into a means for exerting power over as many people as they could draw in. Nothing non-natural has been responsible for the killing of more innocent people over time than religion. 2) I believe that-- just as we giggle at the thought of worshipping cats, or trees, or bugs-- future generations will shake their heads at the concept of worshipping Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, et al. 3) I believe that something more powerful created the earth and put us here, but I think something that awesome would have better things to do than create a planet full of people, tell them good=salvation, bad=hell, then make it so difficult to be good that, by religious text standards, about 99% of people fail at it. 4) I believe that at some point the country stepped over the line separating church and state. If a religion deems marriage to be a man and woman only, then that's their right, but then the state shouldn't have butted in with tax laws, divorce laws, et al pertaining to marriage. Once this occured, any legislation to deny these same rights to gay people makes me sick and goes against everything this country was founded to protect. Rant over, back to work........ as one of the ones you weren't trying to offend...you succedded. I appreciate your thoughts, ghost. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I would first conceed that it's not my place to judge unbelievers "for that is God's place" and not mine. Most of what I'm saying and if you read what I've posted so far, is that inside of the church, devoid of government laws, etc, God most certainly has opinions about personal sexuality. I'm just confused about your Theology, *****... You inferred that I was sinning because of my judgements on others. So, by your logic...I can stick my dick in another guys rectum, call myself a Christian and say that it's "love", but I can't call another person on that action because the Bible plainly states that A)we should avoid sexual immorality B)do not associate with "brothers" who participate in sexual immorality because they're going to be judged by God in Holy Wrath?? That's some very bad theology buddy. And it's even worse for those claiming it as Biblically sound. I'm all for loving relationships...but it's clear as day it's wrong. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I haven't really said anything about this. I've been of two minds for quite sometime on it. I understand the point against homosexuals marrying within the auspices of the church... If a church chooses not to recognize a monogamous, loving, committed relationship between two individuals of the same sex, it is between their members and church leadership. Personally, I happen to think there is nothing stronger for the sanctity of the sacrament then two allow two consenting adults to pronounce their lifelong commitment to each other under the watch of God. Period. Other people in this forum disagree and good for them. They are free to believe what they wish. However, when it comes to the government, it seems to me that it should recognize all marriages - same sex or not, or it should recognize none. Let's say a gay American citizen works in Panama or France or the UK or any other country for an extended period of time and falls in love and gets married, in his partner's home state. When he comes back, his/her partner can not join him. This is wrong. There are married men and women who by the virtue of who they are (bi or homosexual) can not be visited by their husbands and wives in many hospitals across the country, because there is no legal right. They are routinely shut out of wills. They have no legal recourse whatsoever from a lifelong partnership. In most states, gay and bisexual people cannot marry. They can however be fired for their sexuality - even suspicion of it. We live in a country that values equality, except in this case - and a few others. And it bothers me. It bothers me that I can't let slip around work that I had a boyfriend for fear of losing my job. It bothers me that the same people that call for a reduced role in government now want to tell people who they can and can't spend the rest of their lives with or fall in love with. This bothers me. There is nothing in the constitution that talks about marriage or sexuality. Being a government document, and the framework for our system of government - based on the concept of all men being created equal - I think it should stay that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I very much agree with you winodj, and I've maintained this throughout. churches=no government=yes regarding the recoginition of same sex marriages/unions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 OT... PA.. it's not January 8th anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 going to go against what I said and post once more in this thread Earlier it was posted that this is in the Bible: 1 Corinthians 6:4-6 (4)Do not be deceived; (5) neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (6) inherit the kingdom of God. And that is a horrible, politically slanted and unjustified act of violence against the Scriptures because the words "effeminate" and "homosexual" are not in the Biblical text. That is simple fact. (In fact the reference is incorrect, it is 1 Corinthians 6.9-10) I have the original text in front of me, in the koine Greek. I am reading it in the Greek right now. The word "homosexual" did not exist until the late 19th century; it is a half Latin half-Greek word made up for the new vocubalulary of psychology developing in Germany then. It cannot appear in the Scriptures because it did not exist as a word until 120 years ago or so. The word "effeminate" is unknown to me in the Greek Biblical text and is certainly not present here. The Greek words that are used apply to male prostitutes and those who commit acts of violence against unwilling partners or those who engage in Roman cultic sexual practices. I am simply astounded at the poltical agenda of those who mis-translated the Corinthian text for their own political purposes. Of course that passage is taken out of context anyway. But should one choose to focus on that text, let's look at the word "covetous." Have you ever wanted something that belonged to someone else? Then whatever is wished against others is visited on you. And one can't say "well, it doesn't really mean that about covetous people..." one is picking and choosing in violence to the text of the Scriptures. But it might be that covetous people are really condemned, huh? After all, in the 10 Commandments (Lutheran and Catholic numbering) coveting is mentioned twice and gay sexuality not at all. So for those who wish to judge others, the condemnations being heaped, be careful, because the Biblical texts throws those back on the judgers in most unusual ways. I was told somewhat directly that if one sticks a stick into another guy and calls it love, doesn't make it right. Well, stick your dick in male, female, animal, vegetable, mineral, apple pie, doesn't make it love and doesn;t make it right. And "sticking your dick" is not exactly a phrase of love, and also rather male-related and is revelatory in its own right. In fact, the Scriptures call for all sexual unions to be ones of love, faithful, commitment. Those are the paramaters. To condemn, using the Scriptures, two men or two women in expressing love sexually, the condemnation made by unmarried straight people having sex is certainly, well, nicely, ironic, and someone totally misses out on something the Bible is saying. It is also a cop out to say "well what I do is natural but what they do is unnatural." All special pleading (as with being covetous above) is suspect. Science hasn't understood it all yet, whether it is DNA, genetic, or perhaps biological but for gay people, gay sex is natural. It is also normal. It may not be normative, but it normal. Same sex mariages have been celebrated by he church in the past - and I mean in the first ceturies and at other episodic times in the church. And at other times, just accepted. Edward II King of England and King James the VI and I of Scotland and England were gay. Edward had a bad fate because he favored his lover over some of the jealous nobles. James however had his happy little behind the throne life and is remembered today as being the King James in the King Kames Bible. Yes, King James was as out and open a gay king as ever was. The only reason that he had a child was the King of Denmark, father in law to James, threatened to invader England to avenge the insult against the Danish king's daughter if James wouldn't sleep with her. So James did his royal obligation - he had sex to prevent war - and thus was born Charles I. Many church bodies in Europe and increasingly in this country are celebrating same sex marraiges or partnerships or commitment services or whatever. Those who do so take the Scriptures with all seriousness and with integrity before our God. Not all Christian churches are at this point yet to be sure but it took a few centuries for understandings of slavery to change and we are in the midst of the reunderstanding of the equality of women in the church, so this will take time. It was raised that the Church has lost a great deal of authority with the child abuse scandals. Yes. And for those enraged at the Church for what happened there and the years of silence and complcity, I join you in intense anger at those who allowed these things to happen - incidentally the same leadership that wants to condemn so many things - still, for example, birth control - but yet countenanced child abuse. And as a pastor, in fact, as a leader in my church body, I am also a member of the ACLU because there must be a separation of church and state. At various times in our US history the church codoned slavery, killing native Americans and taking their land, ignored white rape of black women (ie Strom Thurmond..) while being part of the lychings of black men for look at white womn (remember Emmitt Till), said the Bible was against unions and workers orgainizations, civil right, inter racial dating and marriage and many other things, including birth control and divorce. (In fact, in Chile, the Church has still prevailed to make divorce illegal. They have their pro family stand and the highest rate of adultery, out of wedlock children, and unmarried sexual unions anywhere. So much for pro family.) Fact is, the church should be issuing dictates for the government to follow, their track record is horrible and we are not a theocratic nation. Hey, if St Mary Perpetual Virgin or Robertson Bible Church do not wish to perform gay marriage services, then don't do them. If Bradfrd Congregational Church or Augustana Lutheran Church or St Paul Episcopal Church do them, then God bless them. If you oppose gay marriage, don't have one. Under the civil law, we cannot discriminate. Equal protection under the law is in the constitution. The whole scare tactic of what next is simple scare tactic bogus. A marriage under law is a civil contract between two people. To change 1500+ years of English civil contract law is not something happening in our lifetime. Marriage law will remain a civil contract between two people. Marriage has its problems. It is not the "institution" that some make of it. It never has existed in Biblical times as it is practiced now - name me the Biblical couples who do - Abraham giving his wife to the Pharoh for Pharoh's pleasure and Sarah giving to Abraham her maid - Jacob with his two wives - David - name someone. Marriage has its problems. I see it as a pastor who works in a law office. With a 50% divorce rate and no one coming to be married who hasn't been divorced or not living together or had sex - in 26 years of prdained ministry the only virgin at the altar at a wedding that I have known of was me. Straight people have shown us how they value marriage. Britney Spears. Nick and Jessica. Benfier. The 50% divorce rate. The Bachelor. Average Joe. the Bacherlotte. etc etc etc We all see the straight world valuing marriage. As a pastor in the church, I know that the strengthing of marriage and family is to seek to work for the health of all marriages and all families - including gay couples and straignt couple, straight ap[rents and gay parents. It is the love and the commitment of the family that matters, not whether it conforms to some church's idea of what to should be. People havce a right to choose to commit their love and life to the one whom they love, and to derive all the benefits and other things that society has granted to married couples. That should not be abridged by the gender of the two people. This is a civil, legal issue, not a religious issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest williestokes Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Ya know what, I put yes (in favor of the ban), but I dont really give a s***. Whatever floats their boat. Unless it has anything to do with kids. Gays are ok, pedophiles are f***in sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest williestokes Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Thats the probably with racism. There are good people and bad people of all races. Timothy McVeigh was white, but so was Abe Lincoln. John Muhammad is black but so was MLK. Osama bin Laden is muslim but so was Anwar Sadat. Ariel Sharon (in my opinion the man is a piece of s***, Sabra and Shatila) is Jewish but so was Yitzhak Rabin. Jeffrey Dahmer was gay but so was Harvey Milk. You can say "gays suck" or something like that but then theres Harvey Milk. There is no one race, orientation or creed that is entirely pure nor is their one that is entirely evil. Thats the problem with racism. Sorry, skimming down this thread made me think this point needed to be brought up, if it didnt, I apologize. But its a good point nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 It is also a cop out to say "well what I do is natural but what they do is unnatural." All special pleading (as with being covetous above) is suspect. Science hasn't understood it all yet, whether it is DNA, genetic, or perhaps biological but for gay people, gay sex is natural. It is also normal. It may not be normative, but it normal. ok, from now on let only men have sex with me and women with women...without the aid of science (which is NOT nature) how long will the human race last?? Natural reproduction or life=Man+Woman The politics of people desiring that one thing is inferred from biblical text over another works both ways, *****. I find it immearsuably hard to believe that of all the intellectual and brilliant men and women of God I know, and of all the people who had to ok those translations....Just now we see that homosexual behaviors aren't a bad thing? and it turns out that we've been wrong all along...it's not really in the text. I just don't buy it. I'll admit that you have more knowledge on this than I...but I've discussed this topic with many different people of many different backgrounds and it all comes up the same. oh well, but I'M the one who's wrong because you're the ordained one. Rev Al Sharpton Rev James Baker Dr E.V. Hill Rev Jesse Jackson Pat Robertson Jerry Fallwell f-ing psychos who are alledged men of God. I'm not saying you belong on that list...I'm just saying that going to seminary means little to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 im not going to list my personal belief or what i think the bible says about homosexuality here...because thats an issue thats best discussed in person..its hard to really make your points on a subject that touchy on a message board.. i will add this...there is alot of talk on this thread from people who say they believe in a higher power or God but dont act on it because they cant stand the hypocrisy of christians and organized religon... in the new testiment there is a letter from james...one of its main purposes is to expose hypocritical practices of the church...its a letter and not a book so its only 5 chapters long..its only 6 pages long in my bible(and mine has 1/2 the pages filled with footnotes)..you can read it in about an 1/2 hour..james is my favorite author of the bible because unlike alot of the bible where it is written in parables , very charismatic , and long drawn out stories james was always right to the point....there is no talking in tongues , answering questions with more question...james was a very straight forward ..its easy to read and understand...he leaves no doubt as to what his message is... it was written about 50AD because the same questions that are on this thread were being asked back then...there have been false prohets since day one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Here's may take on this thing. I don't care what the churches do, what the gays do, what the states do. I just want the damn politicians to leave the constitution alone. There is no way in hell that this issue is crucial enough to justify a constitutional convention. Nor is burning the flag or equal rights admendments. Once the call a constitutional convention, they can then put anything they want to into, or take anything out of, the constitution. If the ERA was ratified by the necessary 2/3 of the states, then a convention would have been called. Once that convention is opened, then anything goes. They could have changed things to where someone could be named president for life. I know, it's outrageous but that's an example of what can happen. You want open up a nasty can of worms then let them call a convention to ban gay marriages, or to make it a constitional right, even. It's not the gay issue I am opposed to, it's allowing those bastards in Washington to get their hands on our constitution. It's not worth it people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 isnt there suppose to be seperation from church and state??? if gays want to get married isnt it there right has being in a free country??? i dont want to see it but what they do in there own homes is there buisness not mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 We do not condem all cops because some are corrupt and hinder prosecuting their buddies? So all police departments are hypocrits? i hate all cops even my broter becuase they are power hungry, escpecially the small ones with little man syndrom, or girl cops with tuff girl syndrom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 i hate all cops even my broter becuase they are power hungry, escpecially the small ones with little man syndrom, or girl cops with tuff girl syndrom You'll grow out of that. Without cops we'd all be in deep s***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 You'll grow out of that. Without cops we'd all be in deep s***. i disagree i have plenty of friends i know there is a need for cops but they should only bother people being violent or disturping other peoples property, or indangering those around u. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 i disagree i have plenty of friends You are such a child. Without cops to protect and serve there would be chaos and your smug little self wouldn't be able to sit around a nice quiet home talking s*** about the people that help make that possible. Why dont you go out to the store and buy youself a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 You are such a child. Without cops to protect and serve there would be chaos and your smug little self wouldn't be able to sit around a nice quiet home talking s*** about the people that help make that possible. Why dont you go out to the store and buy youself a clue. wow that was a little harsh i forgot the green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 wow that was a little harsh i forgot the green Ok I didnt realize it was a joke till after you edited it. My apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 and for the record if I knew of a pedophile doctor, dentist, actor, etc. I would do my level best to avoid patronizing that person. but would you stop going to school, all doctors, etc.? To say "I'm not going to Church because there are pedaphile Priests and Ministers" is a cop out. They are human just like teachers and plumbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 Rev Al Sharpton Rev James Baker Dr E.V. Hill Rev Jesse Jackson Pat Robertson Jerry Fallwell Shall we make a roll call of those who aren't ordained and place everyone else there? Hitler, Dahlmer, Speck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted January 13, 2004 Author Share Posted January 13, 2004 isnt there suppose to be seperation from church and state??? if gays want to get married isnt it there right has being in a free country??? i dont want to see it but what they do in there own homes is there buisness not mine. That same argument would also open up bigomy. This is, for many politicians, a financial matter. Businesses would have spend money on benefits that they do not already have to spend. Opposition isn't just from organized religion, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 im not going to list my personal belief or what i think the bible says about homosexuality here...because thats an issue thats best discussed in person..its hard to really make your points on a subject that touchy on a message board.. i will add this...there is alot of talk on this thread from people who say they believe in a higher power or God but dont act on it because they cant stand the hypocrisy of christians and organized religon... in the new testiment there is a letter from james...one of its main purposes is to expose hypocritical practices of the church...its a letter and not a book so its only 5 chapters long..its only 6 pages long in my bible(and mine has 1/2 the pages filled with footnotes)..you can read it in about an 1/2 hour..james is my favorite author of the bible because unlike alot of the bible where it is written in parables , very charismatic , and long drawn out stories james was always right to the point....there is no talking in tongues , answering questions with more question...james was a very straight forward ..its easy to read and understand...he leaves no doubt as to what his message is... it was written about 50AD because the same questions that are on this thread were being asked back then...there have been false prohets since day one.. It was interesting that you mentioned James, as the pastor at the church I "attend" has been giving sermons on James. This week was on the 4th chapter, and the text is so applicable to so many phases of life. When he was reading it, I instantly had a picture of the current Israel/Palestine conflict, but the appilcations reach accross all aspects of life. This is the 4th chapter of James 1What is causing the quarrels and fights among you? Isn't it the whole army of evil desires at war within you? 2You want what you don't have, so you scheme and kill to get it. You are jealous for what others have, and you can't possess it, so you fight and quarrel to take it away from them. And yet the reason you don't have what you want is that you don't ask God for it. 3And even when you do ask, you don't get it because your whole motive is wrong--you want only what will give you pleasure. 4You adulterers! Don't you realize that friendship with this world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again, that if your aim is to enjoy this world, you can't be a friend of God. 5What do you think the Scriptures mean when they say that the Holy Spirit, whom God has placed within us, jealously longs for us to be faithful* ? 6He gives us more and more strength to stand against such evil desires. As the Scriptures say,"God sets himself against the proud,but he shows favor to the humble." 7So humble yourselves before God. Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw close to God, and God will draw close to you. Wash your hands, you sinners; purify your hearts, you hypocrites. 9Let there be tears for the wrong things you have done. Let there be sorrow and deep grief. Let there be sadness instead of laughter, and gloom instead of joy. 10When you bow down before the Lord and admit your dependence on him, he will lift you up and give you honor. Warning against Judging Others 11Don't speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters.* If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God's law. But you are not a judge who can decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. 12God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor? Warning about Self-Confidence 13Look here, you people who say, "Today or tomorrow we are going to a certain town and will stay there a year. We will do business there and make a profit." 14How do you know what will happen tomorrow? For your life is like the morning fog--it's here a little while, then it's gone. 15What you ought to say is, "If the Lord wants us to, we will live and do this or that." 16Otherwise you will be boasting about your own plans, and all such boasting is evil. 17Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it. And here is a link to the sermon for all who are interested Getting in the Way of Grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 ok, from now on let only men have sex with me and women with women...without the aid of science (which is NOT nature) I know. These stupid leftist assholes want gay marriages and next they're going to want FORCED gay marriages and then they're going to force us to only have sex with the same gender and then the human race will end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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