mac9001 Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 If Griffey was Barry Bonds i could live with it, but he's a lazy injury-prone whining b**** that isn't all that good anymore. He hasn't hit above .300 since '97, his Ab's have been reducing every year since '98, he's not the same in center anymore. He's not worth his stats, for all that he brings with him. Also, Adam Dunn is overrated, but that's another argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 If Griffey was Barry Bonds i could live with it, but he's a lazy injury-prone whining b**** that isn't all that good anymore. He hasn't hit above .300 since '97, his Ab's have been reducing every year since '98, he's not the same in center anymore. He's not worth his stats, for all that he brings with him. Also, Adam Dunn is overrated, but that's another argument. Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 this has all been a wonderful exercise in group building over something that will never happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 self-obsesed f***s piss me off They may piss you and me off, but the fact of the matter is most HOF players aren't all sunshine-n-smiles. Most people aren't, period. Nodoby likes Albert Belle and Barry Bonds, but you can't ignore their on-filed contributions. If you don't want to get Griffey because he is lazy, declining, injury-prone or combination of all 3, that's fine. "Selfish and arrogant" arguement doesn't and shouldn't hold up as far as winning (care to remember when the Sox last won the series, Mac?) is concerned. Maybe that's just me. I despise Tiger "I am a cheap, arrogant, apathetic and racist prick and proud of it" Woods, but his talent is undeniable. I know one thing, there is no offensive player that I've ever seen thats better then Barry Bonds. That guy is a machine. He has a beautiful swing, a great eye, and in his prime he was a gold glover outfielder. He also is a very good baserunner. He's truly an amazing specimen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Screw Griffey. No way I make that trade. Maggs should be here the next 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bighurt52235 Posted February 10, 2003 Author Share Posted February 10, 2003 I would have no problem with him being her efor the next 15 years. Aside from the point, I really want Frank to finish his career on the South Side because I couldn't imagine him in another uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Maggs should be here the next 15 years. With an option for 1018-27 naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Fainter Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Griff has turned out to be an enigma, no doubt about it. Injuries, sub-par performance, big contract, high pub. I lived in Seattle for several years, and I never heard a bad word form the players; they really liked him. Since he moved to Cincy, I cannot say. But for some reason, I think he will bust out in 2003. In spite of all his homers and slugging stats, he is barely a .300 hitter. He should have had several .330-.350 years by now. Of course, I used to say that about Bonds. As much as we all like Maggs, I don't think he is appreciated enough. We have no idea how good he is or will be. Any talk of trading him, even if frivolous in nature, is heresy. Maggs' performance last year was better than anything Griff ever did, and I think Griff is great. They are both going to have gangbuster years in 2003, in my humble opinion. But Maggs will be beter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 Maggs' performance last year was better than anything Griff ever did That's not true: Griffey's '93 and '94 numbers were better OPS-wise, to say nothing of of awesome '96 and '97. Also, his 98 and 99 seasons easily match up with Maggs's last season, and just as easily beat anything Maggs has done between 1999-2001. So, in essence, Griffey had 6 MVP caliber seasons while Maggs had only one, and I am not even factoring in Grifffey's advantage in baserunning and even bigger advantage in defense (Maggs was a good outfielder in 99 and 00 in RF, but Griffey was a HOF defensive player for 12 years in CF no less. Can't compare the two). I love Maggs and he (along with Buerhle, Rauch, Honel and Borchard) is probably the last person on the Sox that I want to see traded...but if Griffey showed signs of Bonds-esque revitalization, I would have to give him advantage. Old Griffey is easily worth 12 million, but old Maggs is not worth 14 unless he cracks 1000 OPS. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 10, 2003 Share Posted February 10, 2003 I remember the days where Griffey and Thomas were the best two young players in the majors. My friends and I would always argue who was better . Me being the Sox fan would always say Thomas, but many would say Griffey. Either way those two guys were some amazing youngsters. Both came into the league and pretty much had immediate sucess with their repsective teams. The big reason we argued is cause we used to collect baseball cards and we always wanted to have the better cards, lol, so we'd try trades and all that good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 akkkkkkkk i cant believe that anyone could be sane long enough to even suggest such a thing........griff = dl constantly since his departure from seattle...........nothing more nothing less.....and thats pretty much what hes been in cincy.. nothing more nothing less......to even think about getting rid of a guy like maggs whos been consistantly better with each and every year ... what the hell are you people thinking??? granted the left field yard gnome could be moved and i wouldnt care one bit but how can you seriously consider throwing in the best player we have on the team.. and one whos going to be here for a few more years and is still young enough to keep getting better.. one whos just begining his great career as opposed to one whos on the downside of it...........omg.. not only no i wouldnt do this but HELL NO i wouldnt even dream of doing this.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 thank you HSC for bringing a note of sanity to this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 griffey is in the same boat as thomas....exactly the same...the most dominating player in the 90's who has run into a stretch of rough years due to injury....he has also rededicated himself this off season to a workout regiment like no other time in his career.. it bothers me that we are so sure thomas will rebound to his former self or be very close...yet everyone here is so sure griffey is through....makes me wonder if frank really is done and we dont see it because we are fans and cant look at frank's situation objectively... but we can with griffey.. plus this deal is not maggs for griffey..if it was it would be a resounding hell no...its also adam dunn for carlos lee...carlos lee is the crappiest ballplayer ive seen in a long time...i dont care about his potential..ive been waiting for his potential long enough..even if he delivers as a solid hitter someday he will continue to create runs for the other team and raise our young pitchers era because he has the arm of a 5 year old girl (along with the brains of one),and as far as range goes i think joe nossek moves faster even before his metimucel kicks in...plus carlos will always be getting picked off base probably at the most crucial times... (9th inning off 3rd with one out and down a run - sound fimiliar??)....it scares the bejesus out of me to think that if we are tied with twins going down the stretch how many blunders carlos will make to cost us games...i think of all the screw ups ralph garr cost in '77..remember lonnie smith costing the braves the world series when he went from 2nd to only 3rd on a double???..then failed to score...these types of plays will be carlos lee's legacy...you dont win with dumb ballplayers...i dont why it happens like this but carlos will never get picked off base when we are winning 14-2..or misjudge a fly ball...oh no..we will always be down a run late when he decides to go off to la-la land...its like the baseball gods want to punish you for insulting them with this type of ignorance...i dont care what carlos hits..even if its 350 -50 -150 he will find a way to derail this team...in my mind he will always be addition by subtraction...there isnt much i wouldnt do to get carlos out of here and replace him with a talent like adam dunn.. maybe im a little rough on carlos but i needed something to rant about..been a crappy night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 either way baggs i still say f*** this... i wouldnt even consider it... so you compare frank to griff.. do you honestly want them on the same team having melt down at the same time?? hell no i wouldnt chance it.. now im all for getting rid of the left field yard gnome but not at maggs expense..... hell at this point in time i would have an auction for the gnome but of course no one would bid on him and we would be stuck... i just cant justify giving up maggs for griff and dunn, wether you put lee in there or not.......wont ever happen, cant happen and if it were to happen i guarentee ya i would be sitting sniper ready to put a shot in both kw and jr for letting it happen......i came very close this year to dumping my season tickets you can bet your ass i would definately do it if they did some stupid s*** like this.........just doesnt make any sense.. if you want rid of lee that badly then package him up with some other dumbass or leave him go by himself for prospects or something .. but dont put the teams future in jeaporedy by dumping maggs in the mix...id put frank in there before maggs..........he is the future of the team........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Simply put.... NO WAY IN HELL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 I would never ever trade Magglio, I believe he is the 2nd best outfielder in the league behind bonds, and as far as lee and dunn, this year is going to be a break out year for lee, there is definetly NO WAY I WOULD EVER DO THIS DEAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 I would never ever trade Magglio, I believe he is the 2nd best outfielder in the league behind bonds, and as far as lee and dunn, this year is going to be a break out year for lee, there is definetly NO WAY I WOULD EVER DO THIS DEAL maggs is a good ballplayer,,very good..but your selling others short when you say maggs is the 2nd best outfielder... maggs 162 game averages...31 -116 ,305 , 362 obp ,885 ops ,avg RF defensively brian giles...34-106 304, 416 obp, 986 ops..plus he is a CF vlad...38 -113 322, 386 obp ,974 ops...best RF in baseball defensively chipper 33-108 - 309 , 404 obp , 948 ops...not sure how chipper is defensively ramirez 41-137 316, 411 obp, 1.010 ops..defensively he is below average walker 33-110 317 , 398 , 972 ops, excellent defensively..his problem is health and hes now 36... berkman 35-118 304 , 406 obp , 984 ops , not sure of his defense but he plays CF,cant be too bad williams 24-105 - 308 , 392 obp ,890 ops..above average CF all these guys carry a higher obp and ops than maggs...id say giles and vlad are better than maggs..its hard to ignore what ramirez is doing too...i put maggs ahead of walker and williams for sure..he is right there with berkman and chipper.....but any fan of any of these players could make a good case against maggs..as we could make one for him...there are some good ballplayers out there... and every year is gonna be a break out year for lee..heard that one for 3 years now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 I would never ever trade Magglio, I believe he is the 2nd best outfielder in the league behind bonds, and as far as lee and dunn, this year is going to be a break out year for lee, there is definetly NO WAY I WOULD EVER DO THIS DEAL welcome aboard but there is no way mags is the second best "of'er". try vlad, bonds, dunn to name a few who are up there in what they bring. i would even say grif may be. but i like mags attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 I would never ever trade Magglio, I believe he is the 2nd best outfielder in the league behind bonds, and as far as lee and dunn, this year is going to be a break out year for lee, there is definetly NO WAY I WOULD EVER DO THIS DEAL welcome aboard but there is no way mags is the second best "of'er". try vlad, bonds, dunn to name a few who are up there in what they bring. i would even say grif may be. but i like mags attitude. I'd put Vlad and Bonds ahead of him. Then Sammy and him are very close. I really think Magglio is truly one of the best players in the majors and given a few more, hopefully 10-15 ( ) and he will go down as one of the greatest players ever. Dunn is good, but potential means nothing until its realized, but he will realize it. I wouldn't mind seeing Caballo gone, but not until we know Thomas is back and is going to be back. Its obvious one of the two will be gone next year, but we need to wait till we know for sure. Then Borchard will be playing everyday and we still may need a centerfielder/leftfielder, depending on where Joe plays. I still love the idea of getting Beltran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 but potential means nothing until its realized So why can't people understand this about Carlos, the stupidass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 but potential means nothing until its realized So why can't people understand this about Carlos, the stupidass? great point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 but potential means nothing until its realized So why can't people understand this about Carlos, the stupidass? great point. Very good point. I do think Carlos has put up solid numbers though. Plus, look at his obp and how much it increased. Their is no way to reach your potential if you don't have a good eye. Carlos showed a lot the 2nd half of last season that said he was figuring things out offensively. Look at how good his numbers are, considering he's been off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 but potential means nothing until its realized So why can't people understand this about Carlos, the stupidass? great point. Very good point. I do think Carlos has put up solid numbers though. Plus, look at his obp and how much it increased. Their is no way to reach your potential if you don't have a good eye. Carlos showed a lot the 2nd half of last season that said he was figuring things out offensively. Look at how good his numbers are, considering he's been off. whats to stop carlos from going back to the old carlos and draw ing onlu 40 walks a season???...carlos is a dumbass (as far as baseball intelligence)..there is nothing that says because he drew 80 walks or so last year he will continue to improve on that... carlos could possibly have the biggest improvement on the sox...i also belive he could have the biggest drop off too....he could hit 220 and be out of baseball next year...or he could hit 320 this year and get 10 million in arbitration...this guy is an enigma beyond belief....he's the kerry wood of LF's...who the hell knows what he is gonna do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 but potential means nothing until its realized So why can't people understand this about Carlos, the stupidass? great point. Very good point. I do think Carlos has put up solid numbers though. Plus, look at his obp and how much it increased. Their is no way to reach your potential if you don't have a good eye. Carlos showed a lot the 2nd half of last season that said he was figuring things out offensively. Look at how good his numbers are, considering he's been off. whats to stop carlos from going back to the old carlos and draw ing onlu 40 walks a season???...carlos is a dumbass (as far as baseball intelligence)..there is nothing that says because he drew 80 walks or so last year he will continue to improve on that... carlos could possibly have the biggest improvement on the sox...i also belive he could have the biggest drop off too....he could hit 220 and be out of baseball next year...or he could hit 320 this year and get 10 million in arbitration...this guy is an enigma beyond belief....he's the kerry wood of LF's...who the hell knows what he is gonna do... well hell at least with wood you know your going to get a walk-a-thon......... maybe if we put a little wheelbarrel in front of the lf gnome he may be better defensively???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 So why can't people understand this about Carlos, the stupidass? whats to stop carlos from going back to the old carlos and draw ing onlu 40 walks a season???...carlos is a dumbass (as far as baseball intelligence)..there is nothing that says because he drew 80 walks or so last year he will continue to improve on that...carlos could possibly have the biggest improvement on the sox...i also belive he could have the biggest drop off too....he could hit 220 and be out of baseball next year...or he could hit 320 this year and get 10 million in arbitration...this guy is an enigma beyond belief....he's the kerry wood of LF's...who the hell knows what he is gonna do... i dont care what carlos hits..even if its 350 -50 -150 he will find a way to derail this team Now that's just moronic. Plain and simple. His defense, admittedly not his strong suit (if it was, he would be worth more than 2.3 Million in 2002 don't you think) doesn't cost that many runs compared to other LF's and you have a better case proving to me that Foulke is a terrible closer because he blew that crucial and unfortunate game at Twinckie Dome in 2001, and that he'll always be a "loser"...Somehow you are forgetting how many games Carlos won for us late in ballgames (homer against Rivera in the 9th? Game-ending GS against Cubbies? 7 Rbi's against Cubbies to avoid an embarassing sweep? I could go on and on; the only player who has come through more is Manos). Two can play the "let's use episodic evidence to support our personal little bias" game, Baggio. The fact of the matter is, Carlos at 25 is as good as Sammy Sosa and Maggs were at that age; Carlos has as good a pure batspeed as either and is physically even more gifted (bigger, greater arm expensions). It's been no secret that his eye/mental maturity was a problem, but, guess what, thats why they use words like "raw", "youngster", "potential", etc. Fact of the matter is Carlos was a 35 walk-a-year player and with mere 15 walks through almost 3 months in 2002 (Corey Patterson land), he suddenly started to draw 4-pitch walks and lay off sliders in the dirt. The result? 60 walks in 85 games (to say nothing of 1000+ OPS!) as a 6th spot hitter, which would prorate to 115 over a full season, and which would lead the team by far. While it's too early to tell if he can sustain it over a full season, I am duly impressed if not totally and pleasantly surprised. For a big man, he is cetainly very mobile. His 34 SB/13 CS before last year would attest. He's also very adept at moving from 1st to 3rd and 1s/2nd to home which is all you can ask for. Him getting picked off at 3rd was unfortunate indeed, but thene again so was Graffinator forgeting to tag a runner/step on a base against the Cubbies. Freakie play, that's all. Could he regress? Of course! But then he could die of a heart attack, too. I will take the odds that Carlos is finally becoming what every Sox fan thought he'd be eventually when we saw him hit a grandslam his first ML at bat. If L.Gonzo and Sosa and even Valentin finally took a step up when they were at or over 30, I think a 26yo Carlos is worth a gamble...esp. considering Borchard is NOWHERE near ready and Vlad Guerrero and Giles ain't comin' to the South Side any time soon. And I would wait until I pronounce Dunn to be a HOF player just yet. Speaking of Grand Slams, guess who has lead the team in the last 3 years? OT: I spoke to his girlfriend before 2001 season (she was at the restaurant I worked at) and she is HOT, people. Maybe a little plump, but just an amazing Latino complextion. Very nice to boot and would go near-hysterical when I would refer to CLee as "Caballo", telling me that Carlos has this ritual...Met Maggs too but that's another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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