Disheartening Article: Magglios GAWN in 05.

[whitesox61382]

:fyou Maggs. IMO it is clear that Maggs is the enemy. All these years Maggs has been portrayed as the quiet superstar that can't do wrong, but now his true colors show. He said that he like Chicago and wanted to stay if the money is right, yet when the Sox offer him the money he wants he gets greedy and turns them down. Maggs has turned into another greedy player when he was thought to be different. He was considered a hero after helping out the Venezuela little league team, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was just for show. Maggs might get 1-2M extra with another team, but what happened to player loyality and wanting to stay in Chicago. Thrown away so Maggs can buy 1 more sports car each year. This makes me sick. For years Sox fans have defended and celebrated this golden boy know as Maggs, only to find out that it was all a mirage. Thanks for nothing your worthless piece of s***. Today you lost another fan. :fyou Maggs

 

I just wish he was healthy so the Sox could trade his greedy ass. Maybe to a team like the Mets or Dodgers. They could probably get a decent replacement(so they can still contend) and a good prospect or 2 for him. Trade him to the Mets for Floyd and prospects or to the Dodgers for Encarnacion/Robers and prospects. For the 1st time I hope that Maggs gets booed the next time he steps on the field.

[Texsox]

:fyou Maggs. IMO it is clear that Maggs is the enemy. All these years Maggs has been portrayed as the quiet superstar that can't do wrong, but now his true colors show. He said that he like Chicago and wanted to stay if the money is right, yet when the Sox offer him the money he wants he gets greedy and turns them down. Maggs has turned into another greedy player when he was thought to be different. He was considered a hero after helping out the Venezuela little league team, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was just for show. Maggs might get 1-2M extra with another team, but what happened to player loyality and wanting to stay in Chicago. Thrown away so Maggs can buy 1 more sports car each year. This makes me sick. For years Sox fans have defended and celebrated this golden boy know as Maggs, only to find out that it was all a mirage. Thanks for nothing your worthless piece of s***. Today you lost another fan. :fyou Maggs

 

I just wish he was healthy so the Sox could trade his greedy ass. Maybe to a team like the Mets or Dodgers. They could probably get a decent replacement(so they can still contend) and a good prospect or 2 for him. Trade him to the Mets for Floyd and prospects or to the Dodgers for Encarnacion/Robers and prospects. For the 1st time I hope that Maggs gets booed the next time he steps on the field.

Can anyone verify what the Sox' final offer was? It seems like it was misreported at least once.

 

I think anyone who changes companies for money is a greedy asshole. Why would anyone decide where to work based on money? :fyou That should never even come up in the interview. Maggs should accept whatever the Sox can offer, I'm certain they are giving him way more than he deserves anyways. Come to think of it, why do players even need contracts, the greedy bastards.

 

Now I'm getting confused again, it is wrong to tell the owners to spend more, but ok to tell players to make less?!

[whitesox61382]

Can anyone verify what the Sox' final offer was? It seems like it was misreported at least once.

 

I think anyone who changes companies for money is a greedy asshole.  Why would anyone decide where to work based on money?  :fyou  That should never even come up in the interview.  Maggs should accept whatever the Sox can offer, I'm certain they are giving him way more than he deserves anyways. Come to think of it, why do players even need contracts, the greedy bastards.

Don't be a smartass Texsox, because it sereverly hurts the point that you are trying to make. If we are talking about that average person trying to make a decent living, and the difference between $30,000 versus $50,000, than money is an important issue, but when we are talking about the difference between 14M/yr versus 15M/yr, than that is pure greed. If you don't think so, than you are blind to reality and need to learn a thing or to about life. Furthermore, I have seen the average person take less money to stay loyal to a company, and often times they make financial sacrifices to do so. Why is it so hard for a player to do the same? I mean one less sports car every year is a supreme sacrifice. Maggs reminds me of the athlete on the Bud commercials complaining about how 20M(or whatever his salary was) doesn't go as far as it use to. Get a clue Texsox.

[BrandoFan]

What I cannot understand is (and maybe I'm reading this wrong) that some people would rather have a .275 10hr 85 rbi guy who is "worth it" for $300,000 than Maggs and his stats at $14,000,000.

 

Do you honestly think that Magglio's intristic worth is 70-75 Mill over 5 years straight up?

 

Do you realize that Magglio got signed a 3 year/30 Mill deal in 2001, back when

 

a) He was a 27yo player with a HOF talent - he ran better than he does now, he had more range, a stronger arm and people seriously thought he would put up monsterous, Sammy Sosa numbers at the plate. Sox didn't know if Tomas was even gonna fully recover from the tricept tear, and seriously thought Magglio was the New Frank.

 

b..) The market was rewarding players like Mondesi and Appier with 12-15 Mill a year contracts, so paying 10 Mill per for rising star Magglio was indeed a bargain.

 

 

But after 2003-2004 seasons, it's clear:

 

a) Magglio is not capable of super-star production. He's an all-star, but not a HOF'er. The reason why Beltran, Tejada, Chavez, Guerrero are getting 11-14 Mill per is that teams feel they're still young enough to improve. Whereas, 30+ yo Magglio has likely reached his plateu. He may end up being a late-late-late-late bloomer, but odds say it's not likely.

 

b..) Market has changed. Boston is trying to get rid of Manny who makes 20 Mill whereas 4 years ago, they thought he was a bargain at that price. If Magglio only got 10 Mill per during the height of salary inflation in 2001, what makes him think he is worth 14-15 NOW?

 

c) Now they're saying his knee injury might be chronic. Even if it's not, I expect Magglio to play defense and run bases conservatively as to limit the risk of re-injury. As he gets older, he will become more one-dimensional - look at Sosa and Canseco and the likes. Is his hitting worth it alone?

 

d) If he is so damn popular, then how he doesn't pack the USCF and doesn't sell jerseys like Sammy Sosa or Big Mac could in their prime?

 

 

So yeah, when it comes to gaudy 75/5 figures, I'd rather have a much younger platoon of Jeremy Reed/Joe Borchard/Rowand in RF for league minimum for many years to come. Magglio's 14+ Mill could be spent elsewhere.

 

 

 

PS....For the record, I do NOT blame Magglio for wanting to move on to bigger and better things.

[CWSGuy406]

Texsox, you have honestly no clue of economics whatsoever.

 

Maggs wants 14-15 million per year, not the 12 million you said.

 

Maggs is worth 12 million a year.

 

Maggs isn't worth 14-15 million a year.

 

And you keep saying that JR pockets the money, yet you ignore the fact of others he resigned/extended/signed as a result of losing Colon, as well as the comp picks.

 

And please, please, PLEASE, don't even try defending the Sox not resigning Bartolo Colon, because I will just laugh if you even try.

[Texsox]

Do you honestly think that Magglio's intristic worth is 70-75 Mill over 5 years straight up?   

 

Do you realize that Magglio got signed a 3 year/30 Mill deal in 2001, back when

 

a) He was a 27yo player with a HOF talent - he ran better than he does now, he had more range, a stronger arm and people seriously thought he would put up monsterous, Sammy Sosa numbers at the plate. Sox didn't know if Tomas was even gonna fully recover from the tricept tear, and seriously thought Magglio was the New Frank. 

 

b..)  The market was rewarding players like Mondesi and Appier with 12-15 Mill a year contracts, so paying 10 Mill per for rising star Magglio was indeed a bargain.

 

 

But after 2003-2004 seasons, it's clear:

 

a)  Magglio is not capable of super-star production.    He's an all-star, but not a  HOF'er.  The reason why Beltran, Tejada, Chavez, Guerrero are getting 11-14 Mill per is that teams feel they're still young enough to improve.    Whereas,  30+ yo Magglio has likely reached his plateu. He may end up being a late-late-late-late bloomer, but odds say it's not likely.

 

b..)  Market has changed.    Boston is trying to get rid of Manny who makes 20 Mill whereas 4 years ago, they thought he was a bargain at that price.  If Magglio only got 10 Mill per during the height of salary inflation in 2001, what makes him think he is worth 14-15 NOW?

 

c) Now they're saying his knee injury might be chronic.    Even if it's not, I expect Magglio to play defense and run bases conservatively as to limit the risk of re-injury.    As he gets older, he will become more one-dimensional - look at Sosa and Canseco and the likes. Is his hitting worth it alone?

 

d)  If he is so damn popular, then how he doesn't pack the USCF and doesn't sell jerseys like Sammy Sosa or Big Mac could in their prime?

 

 

So yeah, when it comes to gaudy 75/5 figures, I'd rather have a much younger platoon of Jeremy Reed/Joe Borchard/Rowand in RF for league minimum for many years to come.    Magglio's 14+ Mill could be spent elsewhere.

 

 

 

PS....For the record, I do NOT blame Magglio for wanting to move on to bigger and better things.

He's worth it because he moves us closer to, not further away, from a World Series. How much is a year or two worth, waiting for someone to maybe blossom into an All-Star while Frank gets older? And as I said in another thread or maybe this one, at least outfield is the best area to lose our #3 hitter.

 

Tell me, how are the Sox better off in the standings without Colon this season? Or is the only thing better off the shareholder's bottom line?

[CWSGuy406]

He's worth it because he moves us closer to, not further away, from a World Series. How much is a year or two worth, waiting for someone to maybe blossom into an All-Star while Frank gets older? And as I said in another thread or maybe this one, at least outfield is the best area to lose our #3 hitter.

 

Tell me, how are the Sox better off in the standings without Colon this season? Or is the only thing better off the shareholder's bottom line?

He has a 6.00 ERA. He's making 12 million. Had we signed Bartolo, we wouldn't have one of: Lee-Konerko-Maggs. That's how it makes us better.

 

Tell me why signing Maggs at 14 million a year makes us a better team? Not to mention we're on a 65, Ill be generous, million dollar budget. I want you to show me your team, with their amounts that they are making, for next year, with Maggs on budget with a 14 million dollar contract. I wonder what our pitching staff will look like - oh wait, will Maggs pitch for us?

[BrandoFan]

He's worth it because he moves us closer to, not further away, from a World Series.

 

Well then let's get Derek Jeter and put him at 3B. He will also move us closer to the Series than Crede would. That he makes almost 19 Mill a year shouldn't matter.

 

Tell me, how are the Sox better off in the standings without Colon this season?

 

Once again, 12 Mill saved went to Buerhle, Thomas, Garland, Marte, Loaiza and Shoeneweiss' raises in 2004. And it gave the Sox 2 draft picks - the kind of picks Sox used to get Sweeney and Reed, two future All-Stars. And it spared us the sight of a lazy, apathetic and probably injured Bartolo Colon.

 

Not offering Everett and Alomar arbitration, if anything else, gives the Sox financial flexibility to pay for Garcia, Guardado AND Beltran at the ASB and thusly become a legitimate WS contender.

[greg775]

This is blasphemy but if we can't "afford" Maggs, I hope he goes to the Cubs and

sticks it up Reinsdork's ass every fricking game the next 10 years.

The Sox are a small market team which is bulls***.

 

EMAIL MARK CUBAN TO BUY THE TEAM NOW!!!!!

[Texsox]

Not offering Everett and Alomar arbitration, if anything else, gives the Sox financial flexibility to pay for Garcia, Guardado AND Beltran at the ASB and thusly become a legitimate WS contender.

I hope you are correct.

[greg775]

Not offering Everett and Alomar arbitration, if anything else, gives the Sox financial flexibility to pay for Garcia, Guardado AND Beltran at the ASB and thusly become a legitimate WS contender.

 

--With all due respect, acquiring these three guys would strip us of ALL

our halfway decent prospects.

I mean they aren't going to give these guys away.

Bye bye Reed, Joe B, Rauch, etc.

And there'd be no guarantee we'd win it all. No guarantee at all.

[BrandoFan]

Not offering Everett and Alomar arbitration, if anything else, gives the Sox financial flexibility to pay for Garcia, Guardado AND Beltran at the ASB and thusly become a legitimate WS contender.

 

--With all due respect, acquiring these three guys would strip us of ALL

our halfway decent prospects.

I mean they aren't going to give these guys away.

Bye bye Reed, Joe B, Rauch, etc.

And there'd be no guarantee we'd win it all. No guarantee at all.

Fine, substitute those 3 clowns with Glavine and Finley or some similar variation -- as long as it totals 10-12 Mill.

 

The point, as they say, still stands.

[Texsox]

Brando I was thinking about this post

Reinsdorf is a majority stockholder and CEO of the White Sox organization. He is a minority stockholder and managing partner of the Bulls. They are two seperate busnesses, two seperate corporations. If he took monies from the Bulls and put it in the Sox, he'd get 3-5 years for Federal Corporate laws broken. It cannot happen.

 

This is the most frustrating thing I read here. We even had one guy, a supposed 'businessman' demand that a wealthy Sox shareholder 'dig deep in his pockets' to fund the Sox for free agents. There are federal laws governing such things. Shareholders cannot put their own money into a corporation except by buying stock, that's what stocks are all about, a company selling shares to raise capital. Einhorn and Reinsdorf put all monies made back ito the club, no one makes money from the club except the employees, the players.

Corporations can borrow money, corporations can borrow money from individuals. Individuals can set the terms of the loan. The repayment can be defered for a very long time or even forgiven. That is not illegal, nor would it land anyone in jail.

 

Selling shares is one way for a corporation to raise capitol, but not the only way. How does ncorgbl think some teams, for example, fund their own stadiums?

 

This doesn't pass the common sense test. Am I missing something?

 

Added later:

 

I called a buddy of mine who works for a bank in their Corporate Loan Office. Corporations give loans all the time, it use to be a popular executive perk, now it has fallen somewhat out of favor as a perk. Legally one corporation can loan money to another. There are some restriction to protect both corporations shareholders investment, but it isn't illegal and in fact somewhat common. An example he gave was GM will loan suppliers money to fund expansion and upgrades to facilities. He mentioned they call it their "Too big to fail" plane for key suppliers. So in theory the Bulls could loan the Sox money, but seriously, why would they?

 

On the borrowing side, corporations borrow money all the time and from a variety of places. Depending on the size of the corporation, and remember some corporations may have only one shareholder and less than 5,000 in sales to Exxon in size, they borrow from US sources, off shore sources, venture capital sources, and private individuals, sometimes called angels. The terms vary all over the place. As long as the corporation that receives the loan isn't being defrauded, or accepting unreasonable terms, it is ok and perfectly legal. If a shareholder or soxtalk really wished to loan the Sox say $5,000,000 this year and have the interest and principle deferd until 2020 or longer, there is no hardship to the Sox corporation, in fact it is a benefit, so the shareholders have no complaints. Since this would be in theory, a loan to meet payroll, there really would be no legal issue.

 

Now, having debunked the great Ncorgbl, I do agree why should a shareholder be asked to personally give money to the organization when banks would be lined up to offer a loan with a major sports franchise as collateral?

 

ncorgbl has claimed to be a successful businessman and an investor in the Sox, I wonder why he didn't know that?

Edited June 13, 2004 by Texsox

[CubsSuck1]

Not offering Everett and Alomar arbitration, if anything else, gives the Sox financial flexibility to pay for Garcia, Guardado AND Beltran at the ASB and thusly become a legitimate WS contender.

 

--With all due respect, acquiring these three guys would strip us of ALL

our halfway decent prospects.

I mean they aren't going to give these guys away.

Bye bye Reed, Joe B, Rauch, etc.

And there'd be no guarantee we'd win it all. No guarantee at all.

Really, in all seriousness, most of the time prospects mean jack s***. Of all the projected superstar prospects, such a small percentage actually become superstars and play for our team. Crede, Rauch, Borchard... all were superstar prospects, all are in the minors or are batting a little over .200 in the majors. The actual superstars you get in the majors were never necessarily projected to be superstards (Buehrle, Maggs). So go ahead trade away the whole minor league for all I care, I don't give two s***s. I'd gladly give away players who have a CHANCE to be stars away for CURRENT stars who we can count on.

[CubsSuck1]

edit: wrong topic

[Texsox]

Really, in all seriousness, most of the time prospects mean jack s***. Of all the projected superstar prospects, such a small percentage actually become superstars and play for our team. Crede, Rauch, Borchard... all were superstar prospects, all are in the minors or are batting a little over .200 in the majors. The actual superstars you get in the majors were never necessarily projected to be superstards (Buehrle, Maggs). So go ahead trade away the whole minor league for all I care, I don't give two s***s. I'd gladly give away players who have a CHANCE to be stars away for CURRENT stars who we can count on.

 

That is so true, it is a shame it had to be posted in a fan web site. But I guess some younger fans haven't seen enough prospects fail and guys like Piazza and Maggs come out of nowhere.

[CubsSuck1]

 

 

That is so true, it is a shame it had to be posted in a fan web site. But I guess some younger fans haven't seen enough prospects fail and guys like Piazza and Maggs come out of nowhere.

Especially in baseball, prospects mean very little to me compared to the current MLB players. If we got rid of Reed, Borchard, Rauch, Honel and whoever else for a superstar and a couple other very good players it would be amazing. We could get a closer,a 5th starter, an Outfielder, and we'd only be giving up a few career .260, .270 players, IF that.

[CWSGuy406]

 

 

That is so true, it is a shame it had to be posted in a fan web site. But I guess some younger fans haven't seen enough prospects fail and guys like Piazza and Maggs come out of nowhere.

I'm not about getting the two picks in compensation for Maggs. That's nice, but what I like is the financial flexibility.

 

I really think that letting go Maggs, as well as Koch and Valentin off the books, that's about 25 million. Take care of our own guys first, extensions, etc. Get Loaiza signed, then go out and get yourself another solid pitcher, and a couple of bullpen arms.

 

Texsox - we all have the same goal of a World Series Title. Just different ways to get there...

[Texsox]

Especially in baseball, prospects mean very little to me compared to the current MLB players. If we got rid of Reed, Borchard, Rauch, Honel and whoever else for a superstar and a couple other very good players it would be amazing. We could get a closer,a 5th starter, an Outfielder, and we'd only be giving up a few career .260, .270 players, IF that.

That's why baseball has 50 rounds of drafts and the NBA 2. I do think by the time they reach AA and AAA the can't miss outfield prospects have a better success rate than then "can't miss" pitching prospects.

[CubsSuck1]

That's why baseball has 50 rounds of drafts and the NBA 2. I do think by the time they reach AA and AAA the can't miss outfield prospects have a better success rate than then "can't miss" pitching prospects.

Yep. But even then, the outfield prospects are no guarentee either. Look at Joe B last year. Luckily he turned it around. Now Reed is slmping a little. It still is s much better success rate than the pitchers.

[CWSGuy406]

That's why baseball has 50 rounds of drafts and the NBA 2. I do think by the time they reach AA and AAA the can't miss outfield prospects have a better success rate than then "can't miss" pitching prospects.

Why are you so quick to call Borchard a bust? Rauch had a major arm injury - see Kris Benson, same thing happened to him.

 

I'll give you a couple of the others, but Borchard and Rauch are pulling the trigger a bit quickly...

[CubsSuck1]

Why are you so quick to call Borchard a bust?  Rauch had a major arm injury - see Kris Benson, same thing happened to him.

 

I'll give you a couple of the others, but Borchard and Rauch are pulling the trigger a bit quickly...

Im not calling Borchard a bust. I'm just saying that he's not a safe bet. I'm saying that he's still unproven, and if we could trade him for a proven player, I'd go for it. As with Rauch, so what if he had arm surgery? That is just one of the many things that can happen in the minors that can prevent someone from making an impact in the majors. s*** happens like that, and they won't have a chance to play for the Sox. By may reasoning, rather than gamble that these young players WILL make a difference for the sox in the future (which can be dented by many things such as poor performace or INJURY), we should see if we can trade for a player that we KNOW will be able to help us, because they are ALREADY at the major league level. That is what I am trying to reason. Sorry for the confusion.

[Texsox]

Why are you so quick to call Borchard a bust?  Rauch had a major arm injury - see Kris Benson, same thing happened to him.

 

I'll give you a couple of the others, but Borchard and Rauch are pulling the trigger a bit quickly...

I'm not calling them busts, yet. I do not believe I mentioned Borchard at all. Rauch is looking less and less likely. As I said sarcastically before, when you were 11 they drafted Rauch and he was a can't miss prospect, a certain Cy Young winner. Injuries, maturity, etc. so far as kept him from realizing his potential.

 

See, injuries are another way prospects do not turn out. Look over the Sox drafts over the past 15 years and see how many 1-2-3 rounders are playing for the Sox.

[CWSGuy406]

Im not calling Borchard a bust. I'm just saying that he's not a safe bet. I'm saying that he's still unproven, and if we could trade him for a proven player, I'd go for it. As with Rauch, so what if he had arm surgery? That is just one of the many things that can happen in the minors that can prevent someone from making an impact in the majors. s*** happens like that, and they won't have a chance to play for the Sox. By may reasoning, rather than gamble that these young players WILL make a difference for the sox in the future (which can be dented by many things such as poor performace or INJURY), we should see if we can trade for a player that we KNOW will be able to help us, because they are ALREADY at the major league level. That is what I am trying to reason. Sorry for the confusion.

Oh - Ok well than we're talking about something totally different. I would too, trade Borchard for a proven player. But some people are making it seem like all prospects will never come true just because we've had a couple of bad apples, or busts, come through our system.

 

I'd trade our prospects, as long as we're getting guys who are worth it. Like, IMO, one of the few players I'd trade Reed for is Sheets. Why? Because he is going to be here beyond this season, plus, he is really coming into his own and becoming an ace.

 

I probably wouldn't trade Borchard for some of these three month rent-a-players.

[CubsSuck1]

I'm not calling them busts, yet. I do not believe I mentioned Borchard at all. Rauch is looking less and less likely. As I said sarcastically before, when you were 11 they drafted Rauch and he was a can't miss prospect, a certain Cy Young winner. Injuries, maturity, etc. so far as kept him from realizing his potential.

 

See, injuries are another way prospects do not turn out. Look over the Sox drafts over the past 15 years and see how many 1-2-3 rounders are playing for the Sox.

YES. You hit that one right on the head.