Okgoh Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 All this information about how the head office has screwed up and is to blame. And how the players have let us down, year after year. So much blame for our disappointment. So much hope for our pitching staff-etc. Yet I am waiting to read -- How do the fans evaluate the field manager? Please tell me why there is so little attention and apathy to the man given the challenge to produce a winner. In 5 years the Sox are 16 games over .500 ( 19 ) regular season. Manuel came in to a line-up with: Frank Thomas In his prime Robin Ventura Albert Belle Harold Baines Ray Durham et cetera so sad And what have we to show for it?---- 2 losing seasons, 2 over .500 seasons, and and 1 break even year. I'm not critizing, but is that the best he can do? Is that OK with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 First of all....I'm happy with any constant that we have at the manager's position....I'd rather have 1 s***ty manager for 5 years rather than firing and hiring and firing and hiring managers all the time...with that process, you will never be successful. You'll never get a plan going and the team will always be unsuccessful. However....Manuel is not a good manager....in fact, he's probably a less then mediocre manager compared to others in the league. He isn't firey, he tinkers with the lineup/pitching staff, he can't make the right decision on when to pull a pitcher or not....he could use a little more help. However....if you give even a bad manager enough talent....you will win. If we had a Mike Scoscia or a Lou Piniella or an Art Howe or hell, even a Tom Kelly or a Ron Gardenhire....we'd have won more than we would have with Manuel at the helm. We will win this year...even with Manuel as a manager. A little trivia for you....who are the only two managers in the AL to have NOT been hired in the 00s but rather in the 90s? Not that hard of a question....but I'll throw it out there anyways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 A little trivia for you....who are the only two managers in the AL to have NOT been hired in the 00s but rather in the 90s? Not that hard of a question....but I'll throw it out there anyways Hmmmm, JM and JT! And JM's downfall is his lack of presence out there. He's gotta show EMOTION. Not so much like Sweet Lou, but he's gotta show his team that he's willing to go to battle for them when necessary. THAT will help them rally around him, and will do so much as far as team unity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okgoh Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Well Manuel would be one. Who cares who the other loser is? I'm not looking for losers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Well Manuel would be one. Who cares who the other loser is? I'm not looking for losers. The "loser" happens to be Joe Torre, who has managed more all star games than probably any other manager in the game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Witesoxfan, exactly. He's never gets fired up enough...rarely will he come out to argue a call and actually show an emotion. I could just see the convo: manual: i thought he was safe ump: nope, he got em with the tag manual: you sure? ump: ya, he got em, please go back to the dugout manual: ok i just wanted to check, thanks I mean, god damn get out there and do something. Get kicked out of a few games, show ur team u care. And his pitching moves, don't even start me on that. It all started last year with the infamous yanks game and the foulke 2 inning save. He defies all odds sometimes. I don't know who was worse, him or Baylor...and don't penalize Baylor because he had no talent to work with and any move he made didn't work. Manual had guys in situations where they could succeed and didn't use them as such. He better get a clue, or let someone else handle the pitching changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I don't have a problem with JM. In fact, I thought he was a big reason we won the division in 2000. However, this year, the team has the horses and I expect nothing less than a division championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I think the Sox won in 2000 and will win in 2003 despite the manager, not because of him. Hell, i think i could do a halfway decent job with this team from a strategy standpoint. More times than not last year when i had other ideas, his backfired, etc. He's just stupid with some of his managerial decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 The one thing that's been stated adnasium here that drove me up the wall last year was TINKER TINKER TINKER!!! Why he tinkered with his lineup so many times is beyond me!!! Once you get a solid lineup figured out, DON'T DO ANYTHING TO f*** UP AND CHANGE IT!!! Sometimes I thought he might've given his lineup to his next door neighbor and told him to just put down anybody on it before leaving for the ballpark! JERRY, DO WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU AND DON'T TINKER SO MUCH THIS YEAR!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 No, Heather, do what's best for the team, not him. I'll give him a month to figure out exactly who he wants at the top of the order (harris, rowand, d'angelo, jose, lee), but after that it should be pretty well set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I don't have a problem with JM. In fact, I thought he was a big reason we won the division in 2000. However, this year, the team has the horses and I expect nothing less than a division championship. Same thing for me here. Why people trash on managers who have taken us to division championships I will never know. It is not as if we have so many of them in our history. Does anyone believe under Bevington we would have won in 2000? So not just any manager can take a team to the divisaion championship. I thiunk we won in 2000 in large part because of Manuel's calma nd steady managing. He did get outmanuevered in game 1 of the playoffs but that is part of the elarning experience. We lost that playoff series because Frank, Mags, and PK had 1 hit between the 3 of them the entire series, not because of Manuel. When our team could have rolled over and died in 2001 with all the injuries, the team regrouped and came back because of Manuel. And it is important to come back, no matter how far out, because that sets the tone for the year (and years) to come. Had Manuel not been able to regroup that 2001 injury decimated team, we would be no where this year, another KC or Detroit. Same for 2002 - in first at the end of May and we falter, but we came regrouped and came back again and stopped the free-fall. The players had a lot to do with the free-fall and changes were made and we recovered, due in large part to Manuel. Had Manuel not been the manager he was, the free fall would have continued and we would not be where we are right now, thinking we can win the division, if not more. Flashy showboats are all the rage and so is Sox fans attacking every manager who has led us to what success we have had - I'd rather have Manuel than some flashy "hey look at me" manager. Calm and steady is what we need with our team, some young - some over emotional dude could tear this team apart. When Manuel needs to turn on the emotion he can - witness preseason Frank and JM 2000. I love you Jerry! Now let the attacks begin from people who couldn't lead their little league team to a title! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 by the way the subject ofd this thread asks: Can he win? The answer he: he already has, in 2000. And I think he will do it again, baring injuries or other things beyond a manager's control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Witesoxfan, exactly. He's never gets fired up enough...rarely will he come out to argue a call and actually show an emotion. I could just see the convo: manual: i thought he was safe ump: nope, he got em with the tag manual: you sure? ump: ya, he got em, please go back to the dugout manual: ok i just wanted to check, thanks I mean, god damn get out there and do something. Get kicked out of a few games, show ur team u care. And his pitching moves, don't even start me on that. It all started last year with the infamous yanks game and the foulke 2 inning save. He defies all odds sometimes. I don't know who was worse, him or Baylor...and don't penalize Baylor because he had no talent to work with and any move he made didn't work. Manual had guys in situations where they could succeed and didn't use them as such. He better get a clue, or let someone else handle the pitching changes. oh wait a minute now .. there was one game last season(trying to remember who we were playing, i think it was minnisoda) i saw jm come charging out of the dugout and almost wet my pants...........he did argue and even got thrown out of the game.........so he does have a temper once in a while....but you are right on the tinker with the lineup thing... we havent had a set one since 2000..... and some of that can be blamed on kw who has to put his 2 cents in and tell jm what to do from time to time based on who he felt should be in there for the day.................i will not blame jm for everything cause somethings his hands are just tied........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 JM has been a failure , I hope he is gone soon and take KW with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 i will not blame jm for everything cause somethings his hands are just tied........... Ok, lemme take a stab at it here and say that you'd probably blame KW for EVERYTHING! I've got you figured out, Michelle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkfan Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 obviously, jerry manuel is not good enough to be a major league coach.... if he was he could win .... the only way a team full of all stars can't even make the playoffs is if they have a bad coach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 what bugs me most about manuel is two fold...first, like heather says he tinkers with the line up way too much...one of his ST quotes so far has been he wants a left handed pitcher in the 5th spot if possible because it makes the other manager use different line up....not neccessarily true jerry...just because you tinker with the line up everyday doesnt mean other manager do too...he changes the starting line up way too much for me... 2nd reason..and this one has me baffled because of his tinker....he never uses his bench in games....how many times did royce clayton hit in the 8th inning when we wre down a run or two and graffy was on the bench , sometimes hitting almost 100 points higher then the choice???..or what about lee in the first half of the season when he was struggling batting late in the game against a righty pitcher when liefer was on the bench??... i want the exact opposite in a manager..i want a guy to find our 9 everyday players and stick with them except for the occasional day off every starter needs...but i want him to liberally use the bench as game situation dictates...jerry seems to think if he tinkers with the pre-game line up that once the game starts he can nod off resting his head against the bat rack in the dug out (i actually think more than once he was sleeping in the corner there...head against the bat rack, arms folded , hat pulled down , doesnt move for 2 innings - doesnt take a detective to figure that one out ) jerry has it backwards..i hope he figures it out this year as for handling the pitching staff..other than his complete screw up of the foulke situation ..i think he does a good job there...i like how he tries and gets those lefty-lefty / right -righty match ups late in the game..i wish he would do it on offense too... in the clubhouse he needs to keep his word more..he reminds of the parent in the store with a whiney 2 year old who wants a candy bar and because mom said no the kid throws a tantrum...mom threatens to ground him , spank him ,whatever if he doesnt stop and he keeps crying anyways..a few minutes laster you see them in the checkout line and the kid has a candy bar in his hand...thats jerry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 obviously, jerry manuel is not good enough to be a major league coach.... if he was he could win .... the only way a team full of all stars can't even make the playoffs is if they have a bad coach so a team with Jim Parque, and Cal Eldred breaking down half way through the season, the lawn jockey in LF, Jose's 35 errors, not getting Perry and Graf until the season was underway, etc. etc. etc.... then how did the Sox win a division championship without a team full of All Stars in 2000? who was that manager? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Like i said earlier, the Sox won despite the manager, not because of him. If i win with this team's talent, does that make me a winner? By your reasoning yes, by mine, no. And he "won" for only one season. There's plenty of problems with Manuel that just saying "he won in 2000" doesn't cover up. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 That is very debatable whether they would have won without him, and a very moot point. The fact is they won with him. So it is wrong to say they "can't" win with JM as manager. The argument over whether there are better managers suited for this team is very open and debatable - but JM was a winner in 2000 and that is just simple historical fact. And if you managed the team in 2003 and they win a division championship, I am sure you would think you had something to do with it and expect the credit you should have as manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Like i said earlier, the Sox won despite the manager, not because of him. If i win with this team's talent, does that make me a winner? By your reasoning yes, by mine, no. And he "won" for only one season. There's plenty of problems with Manuel that just saying "he won in 2000" doesn't cover up. Period. and take a look at who else wasnt here in 2000....... im tellin ya its not all jm's fault with the tinkering.. he does what hes told to do......period.......and if the little incident at the jake didnt give you a bit of a clue as to how our gm runs this club then your blind...............cant blame everything on jm hes doing the best he can with the orders hes given......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 First of all....I'm happy with any constant that we have at the manager's position....I'd rather have 1 s***ty manager for 5 years rather than firing and hiring and firing and hiring managers all the time...with that process, you will never be successful. You'll never get a plan going and the team will always be unsuccessful. However....Manuel is not a good manager....in fact, he's probably a less then mediocre manager compared to others in the league. He isn't firey, he tinkers with the lineup/pitching staff, he can't make the right decision on when to pull a pitcher or not....he could use a little more help. However....if you give even a bad manager enough talent....you will win. If we had a Mike Scoscia or a Lou Piniella or an Art Howe or hell, even a Tom Kelly or a Ron Gardenhire....we'd have won more than we would have with Manuel at the helm. We will win this year...even with Manuel as a manager. A little trivia for you....who are the only two managers in the AL to have NOT been hired in the 00s but rather in the 90s? Not that hard of a question....but I'll throw it out there anyways Was Scioscia hired in 2000 or 99? I can't remember, otherwise its Torre and Manuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Great points by Baggs, especially "i hoipe he figures it out this year." I wonder how long we'll stick with him if we fall 8 games behind Minn by mid May or something stupid like that. We need to win the division. Too many good teams with money to bank on the wildcard any more. And if we fire JM, who replaces him? We don't have very good candidates on the bench now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Hey cwsox, When did i ever say they "can't" win without manual? They obviously did, however my point is not moot like you think it is, as you said in the earlier post on how "The argument over whether there are better managers suited for this team is very open and debatable - " that's exactly what i'm arguing!!!!! A good team can win with a mediocre manager, and a great manager probly can't win with crap talent (see Lou). And you say he's a winner in 2000. Big deal. That's one year. In the same regard, he was a loser in 2001 and 2002, how bout taking credit for those seasons just the same??? You are playing off this 2000 season as if he was a God that year...and hmm...if i remember right, he got horribly horribly outmanaged by Lou in that series (yes i remember correctly, that's not even debatable). So what does that tell you about him? He's a winner cuz he can beat the Royals in the regular season and get killed in the playoffs? And ya i'm attributing a lot of that series to Manual. He's got to prove himself. If you are saying i can't question manual's moves, you are dead wrong. We've all pointed out many faults with the guy already. Which only tells me that he wasn't the only guy that could have won with that 2000 team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Whoa - since I said that whether he is the best manager for this team is a matter for debate, I am not telling anyone that nothing is non debatable or that the moves a manager makes can't be questioned. I think we won in 2000 in part because he was manager - if Bevington were still our manager, no division championship. I think he has the right demeanor for our team. I think he held us together in 2001 and 2002 when other things would have torn us apart. If I didn't say that in this thread I said it elsewhere lately - I won't disagree with you that Pinella suckered Manuel in game 1 of the playoffs, I was there - but I don't think Pinella is that hot of a manager either. Hell, I could have won in 2001 with the team he had, he had nothing to do with it! And there is a manager who couldn't get a team to the World Series -- he went one more round than Manuel in 2000, big deal he still ended up losing the last game of his season in 2000, 2001,, and missed the 2002 post season - no wonder he is out of Seattle. But that is something that people will all kinds of ideas on and that's what this forum is for, right? As far as questioning moves - who doesn't challenge a manager's moves? That is our right as fans! (And I would have left Parque in for one more inning in game 1 of the 200o play-offs and I was vocal about it in the stands at the time - the game got out of hand when the relief pitching came in.) See? Everyone questions moves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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