Official Ortiz/Jones ATL Rumors Thread

[Soxbadger]

Jones contract is about what the Sox wanted to pay for Maggs, and its 2-3 years shorter than they would have to give Maggs.

 

Also I assume Atlanta will eat some of the money over the remaining years, which should put Jones at about 9-10 mil annually.

 

For his production and OF ability, that is a good price, seeing as Konerko makes $8mil and isnt nearly the weapon Jones can be.

 

Also, wouldnt we all like to get something for nothing. But unfortunately trading is a two way street.

 

Jones has been Atlantas best player since he was 20, now they are going to send him away for a rent a player or prospects?

 

That doesnt fly well in a place that expects to win every year.

 

(lol Jones k's looking, he needs a change of scenery, and im not saying id prefer Maggs over Jones (thatd be a much harder argument), just we arent going to have Maggs next year, so we need to start making plans.

 

Lee, Jones, and Rowand is a better place to start than, Lee, Rowand, and Borch, Reed, etc.

 

SB

[CWSGuy406]

Jones contract is about what the Sox wanted to pay for Maggs, and its 2-3 years shorter than they would have to give Maggs.

 

Also I assume Atlanta will eat some of the money over the remaining years, which should put Jones at about 9-10 mil annually.

 

For his production and OF ability, that is a good price, seeing as Konerko makes $8mil and isnt nearly the weapon Jones can be.

 

Also, wouldnt we all like to get something for nothing. But unfortunately trading is a two way street.

 

Jones has been Atlantas best player since he was 20, now they are going to send him away for a rent a player or prospects?

 

That doesnt fly well in a place that expects to win every year.

 

(lol Jones k's looking, he needs a change of scenery, and im not saying id prefer Maggs over Jones (thatd be a much harder argument), just we arent going to have Maggs next year, so we need to start making plans.

 

Lee, Jones, and Rowand is a better place to start than, Lee, Rowand, and Borch, Reed, etc.

 

SB

So we should tie up 9-10 million in a real good defensive outfielder, but a guy who probably, at best will hit .270-.280?

 

I'd rather keep Maggs till season's end, get the two comp picks, and tie up that 14 million in a starter and a couple of relievers, or vice versa.

[BrandoFan]

With Konerko playing the way he is, do we really want to deal him.  He is a guy that will be on the Sox again next year while Maggs will be audios. 

 

I cannot believe you're even asking this question, Jason.

 

I'll just repost something from another thread:

 

 

I am loving Paulie's current production - both his power- and clutch-hitting are way up compared to last year, and his GIDP are way down.   

 

But his range/reflexes are still below average; he still hits into too many DP; it still takes 3 singles to score him from 1st; and then there is the Hip of Doom.    Did I mention he makes 17 Mill in 2004 and 2005?   Plus, who knows how long Konerko can mantain his current power surge - his value is peaking right now IMO.

 

If Sox want to keep Maggs, Sox simply cannot afford both Lee and Konerko if they want to be competitive, and Lee (at his career levels) offers you better overall value than Konerko does since he can play decent OF and can actually run a little.  

 

Also, Lee arguably has a higher upside than Konerko does, so that should count for something - although at this point, I am not so sure Carlos has enough Hitting IQ to be a poor man's Manny Ramirez.

 

All Paulie needs is to keep this up for another 2 weeks and he might have a shot at being an All-Star - Uribe is fading fast, so Thomas might end up being the only one picked.    David Ortiz is the only 1B who is playing better, although that f*** Hattenberg might challege him at some point.    Giambi is a sham.....In any case, my point is that if he keeps it up for another few weeks, his TRADE VALUE will be cemented and 2003 will be looked on as a fluke. 

 

I mean, consider who plays LF-RF-DH-1B on some of the contending teams.  My god, look at who Texas trotted out there today in the OF - Conti, Delluci and Mench.....:puke 

 

Barring a sudden outburst of generosity from The Jerry, Sox are gonna miss-out on some BIG-TIME (mostly pitching) talent because they don't want (and shouldn't) to give up Reed, Sweeney, Anderson, which teams are gonna demand if they are to pick up a chunk of said big-time pitcher's salary.    

 

Getting rid of Konerko's would be tremendeous in that it would free up the money Sox weren't planning on spending - so in addition to Ortiz, now you might get Glavine as well should Mets fall out of the race.

 

 

Of course when I say trade Konerko to free up some space on the payroll, I mean "sweeten up the deal with a prospect or two so a contending team X will actually take all of Kong's money".........I am not interested in salary swaps because the way Konerko is hitting now, he's an ASSET to us as well.

 

Another benefit of Konerko's departure:   Lee and Frank split time at 1B whic would allows the Sox to go after JD Drew who is cheap and VERY good.

[Chisoxfn]

Jones contract is about what the Sox wanted to pay for Maggs, and its 2-3 years shorter than they would have to give Maggs.

 

Also I assume Atlanta will eat some of the money over the remaining years, which should put Jones at about 9-10 mil annually.

 

For his production and OF ability, that is a good price, seeing as Konerko makes $8mil and isnt nearly the weapon Jones can be.

 

Also, wouldnt we all like to get something for nothing. But unfortunately trading is a two way street.

 

Jones has been Atlantas best player since he was 20, now they are going to send him away for a rent a player or prospects?

 

That doesnt fly well in a place that expects to win every year.

 

(lol Jones k's looking, he needs a change of scenery, and im not saying id prefer Maggs over Jones (thatd be a much harder argument), just we arent going to have Maggs next year, so we need to start making plans.

 

Lee, Jones, and Rowand is a better place to start than, Lee, Rowand, and Borch, Reed, etc.

 

SB

I'd also say this deal means Rowand (who has a very good arm) could move to right and give the Sox and even better defensive outfield. You also have Borch and Reed waiting in the wings and Reed is about to go on a tear in the minors (mark Danman's and my words on that).

 

Ortiz is a good pitcher, case closed. 21 game winner. He may not be a #1, but the Sox have Buehrle and Elo ahead of him, and Ortiz is a better then average 3. Who knows if it is enough to lead the Sox to the series, but it sure makes the club better.

 

The Sox are scoring without Maggs right now, they aren't pitching without him. This way we add a productive bat (Jones) with a good pitcher (Ortiz) and also have something for the future. A 27 year old GG center fielder. Jones also has a little charisma, which I hate to say it, Maggs lacks, so he could be a good type of player to market in Chicago.

 

I know fans will hate losing Maggs, but one thing Maggs lacks is the certain pazazz you like to have when your paying your superstar 15 mill a year. Of course, Vladdy lacks that pizazz as well, but you can't compare his production on the field to Maggs, You CAN'T, yet he wants the same size contract.

 

One thing I've long said about dealing Maggs is that your risking some serious PR hits, but in this case, the PR department could actually be better off. Maggs is the better offensive player yes, but I fully believe Jones is someone you could really market. The guy will possibly hit 500 hr's and their is a possibility that sometime during his remaining years on the contract, he'll rip off for a 50 HR, .275 AVG type season while playing GG defense. Folks, that would make him possibly one of the best 3 players in the majors.

 

Maggs is good, but SO is Jones and he plays a much harder to fill position and is the best defensive centerfielder over the last 30 years and possibly EVER.

[Soxbadger]

Yes im willing to give $9mil to the best defensive CF, who will hit .270 30 hr 100 rbi, and 100 run every year and is still 27 years old.

 

Worse case scenario, he turns it around, and we trade him to another team for SP.

 

Look at all the teams hot on Beltran, if you dont think being in the Sox line up can get you better pitches, just look at what Uribe is doing.

 

Now imagine Jones who is far more disciplined and a far superior hitter seeing those same pitches.

 

Part of Jones' slump is hes unprotected, therefore pitchers are just working him hard, and since he doesnt take walks thats a problem.

 

If hes protected, no ones walking him when Frank's on deck, hes hitting way better.

 

Lee was having that problem earlier in the year, but he had more discipline so had an above average walk rate and still high obp.

 

 

SB

[Mr. Showtime]

I'd like to see what Jones could do in our park as opposed to Turner Field. I'm sure he'd see some good pitches with Frank in front of or behind him.

 

Magglio would have Chipper with him in the batting order, that would be mighty interesting.

[Chisoxfn]

Also, If later in the year the Sox decide that Reed/Borch aren't ready and that they do need an everyday left handed right fielder, one would be semi easibly found. Heck, you don't think a team would be dumping a guy on an ending contract for much more then a mid level prospect.

 

You could even use Rowand as bait if you wanted, but we all know he is a solid 4th outfielder who could always come back again in spring fighting for a job.

 

Of course Rowand could also be the everyday right fielder.

[Guest JimH]

A) From that place where Ortiz is a 4.50-4.75 ERA pitcher in AL (at USCF) the way he's pitching this year. 

 

B..) From that place where Altlanta is falling out of contention and might want to do some salary dumpin'

 

C) From that place where the original Ortiz rumor was reported - wasn't it

Rauch + another prospect (Sweeney?) that was discussed before Andrew Jones/Maggs part was added later on?

Point A = your judgement of his worth, your opinion, that's fine

 

Point B = your judgement of Atlanta's situation, contrary items have been printed

 

Point C = yes. I don't consider Sweeney a lesser prospect though, he is very highly regarded if BA is to be believed.

[Chisoxfn]

I'd like to see what Jones could do in our park as opposed to Turner Field. I'm sure he'd see some good pitches with Frank in front of or behind him.

 

Magglio would have Chipper with him in the batting order,  that would be mighty interesting.

I need to quote one of your posts, becasue I thought you may of possibly brought up the best point in what has been a very interesting thread with lots of good discussion.

 

I'm gonna repeat what you said, Jones will be a 3 yr deal to JR....that is a lot safer then giving a guy a 5 year deal, which is what Maggs wants at a few more mill a year.

 

Even if the per year figures end up being 1-3 (depending on whether the Braves pick up any salary) less then what Maggs would make, the deal would still have an additional 28 mill in guaranteed money in years 4 and 5.

[Soxbadger]

You can get Larry Walker right now for 10 baseballs and a pitcher who is willing to throw 100 innings in coors field and get lit up.

 

SB

[Chisoxfn]

Point A = your judgement of his worth, your opinion, that's fine

 

Point B = your judgement of Atlanta's situation, contrary items have been printed

 

Point C = yes.  I don't consider Sweeney a lesser prospect though, he is very highly regarded if BA is to be believed.

I'd say the Braves won't give up. They are only like 4 games out in what is a very winnable division. Yes the Phillies are good and yes the Marlins are good, but neither of them have been all that fantastic this season and whether you like it or not, the Braves just got Paul Byrd back and he's looking good.

 

They also have good prospects and a bat like Maggs could come in and really help him, while they can replace Ortiz with Byrd or at least semi replace him with Byrd.

 

The Sox get pitching and a good bat that will be around a few more years, something we coudln't say with Maggs. This is a deal that would be good for both teams, imo.

[Chisoxfn]

You can get Larry Walker right now for 10 baseballs and a pitcher who is willing to throw 100 innings in coors field and get lit up.

 

SB

Does Walker have another year on his contract? If not, that would be a very very interesting player to take a shot on at the deadline. If somehow he is healthy, you have a RF (LHB) with a tremendous bat and you could ocassionally give him time off and what not.

 

At that point in time the Sox could look that way. However, if he has more years left on his contract, I think a team would be nuts to acquire him unless they also had an awful contract to give up.

[Soxbadger]

Walker

 

2004: $12.5M

2005: $12.5M

2006: Team option $15.0M or $1.0M buyout

 

Also complete no trade clause it appears.

 

Supposedly the Rockies want to deal with the Reds, but the Reds need to find a place to move walker.

 

I mean if you can get the Rockies and Reds to eat $3mil a piece, then Walker is a nice player.

 

But in whatever deal, unless its Yanks or Red Sox, significant cash will be moved.

 

Hence why he can be had so cheap

 

SB

[CWSOX45]

Someone on WSI said that Levine has reported that the Braves were taking a look at Marte....while the Sox are looking at Juan Cruz....

 

I don't want to give up Marte, our bullpen is way too fragile already.

 

CWSOX45

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

Lawrence Holmes of the Score said on the air about half an hour ago that he had just spoken to Kenny Williams. He said KW said that he has had a lot of talks with Atlanta, but had not discussed trading Ordonez in those talks. FWIW.

[Mr. Showtime]

Someone on WSI said that Levine has reported that the Braves were taking a look at Marte....while the Sox are looking at Juan Cruz....

 

I don't want to give up Marte, our bullpen is way too fragile already.

 

CWSOX45

Bruce Levine must be smoking crack. The Sox just signed him to a great deal, he's one of the best left handed relief pitchers in the game, and we're gonna deal him when our bullpen is sorta itchy as it is.

 

I could see them moving Cotts, but not Marte.

[Chisoxfn]

Someone on WSI said that Levine has reported that the Braves were taking a look at Marte....while the Sox are looking at Juan Cruz....

 

I don't want to give up Marte, our bullpen is way too fragile already.

 

CWSOX45

I'd definately agree with that. However, I love the idea of Juan Cruz. If the Sox could land Cruz, Jones and Ortiz then that would fill out the rotation. Once Scho comes back, Cruz moves into the bullpen and then competes for a starters job next spring. Cruz has dynamite stuff and has pitched well for the Braves out of the pen.

 

However, Marte, YUCK. He is signed to an affordable deal and is a very very valuable reliever. I couldn't see giving him up.

 

However, Maggs/Rauch/Borchard for Jones/Ortiz/Cruz and you got yourself a deal. Give them another prospect for all I care.

[Chisoxfn]

Bruce Levine must be smoking crack. The Sox just signed him to a great deal, he's one of the best left handed relief pitchers in the game, and we're gonna deal him when our bullpen is sorta itchy as it is. 

 

I could see them moving Cotts, but not Marte.

You know what, heres what it will be. Sox deal Cotts/Maggs and maybe Rauch and get Cruz, Jones, and Ortiz.

 

I could almost say you can book it.

[BrandoFan]

Point A = your judgement of his worth, your opinion, that's fine

 

Point B = your judgement of Atlanta's situation, contrary items have been printed

 

Point C = yes.  I don't consider Sweeney a lesser prospect though, he is very highly regarded if BA is to be believed.

A) I am just going by the "conventional wisdom" here. I personally think Ortiz will be better than 4.50 ERA in ALC, but that doesn't mean Atlanta should get all pissy about getting the farm for him.

 

B..) You never really know. Atlanta is firmly entrenched in 4th place, but Mets are Mets, Phillies are hugely underaichieving and have two important arms on DL, and Florida could be swept by the friggin' Devil Rays. I don't think Atlanta is good enough to beat the Marlins, but they may see it otherwise.......Again, even so, Braves shouldn't pretend Ortiz = big-time pitcher.

 

C) Again...."lesser prospect" referred to prospect in A-ball. I am fully aware of Sweeney's potential, but that 340 Slug. % in A-ball clearly shows that he is AT LEAST 3 years away from really contributing at the ML level, and Atlanta might not see him as quite the next JD Drew esp if they have to wait a long while for him.

[CWSOX45]

Bruce Levine must be smoking crack. The Sox just signed him to a great deal, he's one of the best left handed relief pitchers in the game, and we're gonna deal him when our bullpen is sorta itchy as it is. 

 

I could see them moving Cotts, but not Marte.

I agree. Screw this deal if Marte is involved. Marte and Shingo are a killer combo right now. One of the best late inning duo in the majors.

 

CWSOX45

[hi8is]

Lawrence Holmes of the Score said on the air about half an hour ago that he had just spoken to Kenny Williams. He said KW said that he has had a lot of talks with Atlanta, but had not discussed trading Ordonez in those talks. FWIW.

IMO:

KW is lieing because he dosent want people to know about maggs being on the block. i can see why he would trade maggs to get a proven CF GG player in JOnes, and a proven starter with a carrer win-loss record of something like 100-50

 

it makes since to trade maggs to get 3 years of Jones and Ortiz.... but KW doesnt want the magglio fans, magglio himself, and other teams to know about his talks with the braves.

 

this is why he likes to trade "under the radar"... he likes to have the cards in his hands... the ball in his court.

[Chisoxfn]

IMO:

KW is lieing because he dosent want people to know about maggs being on the block. i can see why he would trade maggs to get a proven CF GG player in JOnes, and a proven starter with a carrer win-loss record of something like 100-50

 

it makes since to trade maggs to get 3 years of Jones and Ortiz.... but KW doesnt want the magglio fans, magglio himself, and other teams to know about his talks with the braves.

 

this is why he likes to trade "under the radar"... he likes to have the cards in his hands... the ball in his court.

Agreed, plus if talks don't materialize into a deal, then he can always say Maggs was never a part of the picture. He's mentioned absolutely no major league players in this deal and thats probably a good thing for his sake if a deal doesn't go down.

 

I'm really freaking intrigued right now, cause I think the Sox have a serious potential to really improve their ball club.

 

Should I add, Jones and Ortiz both add playoff experience, something the Sox will need if they make the playoffs.

[BrandoFan]

Someone on WSI said that Levine has reported that the Braves were taking a look at Marte....while the Sox are looking at Juan Cruz

 

Marte? f*** no.

 

Juan Cruz? f*** yeah. That kind of arm doesn't come along very often. I've seen him hit 96-98 while on the Cubs and his change made people look pathetic. Of course he is the MOTHER of all reclamation projects. Sincde he is still young and cheap, Sox would be KRAZY not to take a chance on him - as long as we don't give up anybody of worth for him.

 

Then again, if Braves pitching coach couldn't "fix" Cruz, Sox have little chance. I still will take him as a throw-in, no doubt in my mind.

[YASNY]

This should be an interesting day. No matter what deal KW makes, some people are going to b**** and moan while others will be happy. So you have take all that with a grain of salt.

[CWSGuy406]

I'd definately agree with that.  However, I love the idea of Juan Cruz.  If the Sox could land Cruz, Jones and Ortiz then that would fill out the rotation.  Once Scho comes back, Cruz moves into the bullpen and then competes for a starters job next spring.  Cruz has dynamite stuff and has pitched well for the Braves out of the pen. 

 

However, Marte, YUCK.  He is signed to an affordable deal and is a very very valuable reliever.  I couldn't see giving him up.

 

However, Maggs/Rauch/Borchard for Jones/Ortiz/Cruz and you got yourself a deal.  Give them another prospect for all I care.

IMHO, Maggs won't be traded in a deal to Atlanta. Maybe down the line a bit for an absolute stud pitcher, but not for Russ Ortiz/Andruw Jones.

 

I also love the aspect of getting Juan Cruz. IMO Jim Hendry doesn't take any slack for this, but he's an absolute moron for trading him for two minor leaguers. I would have loved to get Cruz at the time and only give up two small prospects. I absolutely love Cruz's stuff too.

 

But like I said - if KW says that Maggs isn't going anywhere, I doubt he is. Joe Borchard is a different case, but I don't think Maggs is going anywhere, at least for now.