Official Ortiz/Jones ATL Rumors Thread

[DBAHO]

Also found this on an article bout Finley,

 

As a 10/5 man, Steve Finley has the right to block any trade, but an associate of Arizona's ageless center fielder says he would be willing to waive it in the right situation. What about a midyear trade to the Marlins? "Sure," the associate said. "He wants to be in a pennant race. But the Marlins don't want to spend the money." Finley is making $7 million in his walk year, but the Diamondbacks might be willing to eat some of his remaining obligation for the right prospects. They are not yet at that point, however. ...

[YASNY]

Also found this on an article bout Finley,

 

As a 10/5 man, Steve Finley has the right to block any trade, but an associate of Arizona's ageless center fielder says he would be willing to waive it in the right situation. What about a midyear trade to the Marlins? "Sure," the associate said. "He wants to be in a pennant race. But the Marlins don't want to spend the money." Finley is making $7 million in his walk year, but the Diamondbacks might be willing to eat some of his remaining obligation for the right prospects. They are not yet at that point, however. ...

That's good info. Thanks.

[CWSOX45]

Jones is hitting .243 right now, 12 homers, 37 RBIs.  :puke

 

Career .267 hitter.  And yet his contract increases to 13 million per year?  No way I want a contract like that in four years or so when Brian Anderson and Ryan Sweeney are knocking on the door.

See this is what is wrong. Most people just look at a player's offensive numbers, and by that determine if he sucks or not.

 

Do you have any idea how many runs Jones has saved for the Braves this year?

 

With him in center our defense improves DRASTICALLY.

 

We know he can be an offensive threat too, and I seriously all he needs is a chance of scenery.

 

CWSOX45

[upnorthsox]

Jones' reputation as a six-time Gold Glove winner and consistent 34-35 home run hitter has sizzle, even if those who see him every day see his overall performance declining.

 

This has been the impetus on the Braves side and remember we get stuck with him for 4 more yrs if true.

 

If Ortiz isn't part of the deal then there's little point in pursuing it as we'd have to get a reliever from Atlanta to make the deal worth while and they have little I'd be interested in.

 

Of course, if this forced Seattle to s*** or get off the pot then let's pursue it hard.

[YASNY]

This has been the impetus on the Braves side and remember we get stuck with him for 4 more yrs if true.

 

If Ortiz isn't part of the deal then there's little point in pursuing it as we'd have to get a reliever from Atlanta to make the deal worth while and they have little I'd be interested in.

 

Of course, if this forced Seattle to s*** or get off the pot then let's pursue it hard.

Remember Paul Konerko last year? His performance was also "declining". Jones is only 27 years old and many many good years ahead of him.

[TLAK]

Deal may include Andruw

 

By DAVID O'BRIEN

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 6/26/04

 

 

Baltimore -- The Braves might be close to trading pitcher Russ Ortiz to the Chicago White Sox, and there are rumors the deal could possibly expand into a blockbuster involving outfielders Andruw Jones and Sox slugger Magglio Ordonez.

 

The Jones and Ordonez portion, which was making the rounds in Chicago on Saturday, couldn't be confirmed by reliable sources with either team. But a White Sox official confirmed there have been ongoing discussions about Ortiz.

 

The Braves would likely get 6-foot-11 pitcher Jon Rauch in any deal for Ortiz. Rauch had his best major league start Thursday against the Cubs with Braves scout and special assistant Jim Fregosi in attendance.

 

...

That's a BS article. For starts Rauch beat the Indians Thursday not the blue vermin.

 

Second, Jones is a fine talent but that move would not address the LH bat issue. I don't think the team will win more games with Jones over Ordonez, Jones brings things the team already has. JD Drew on the other hand would dramatically improve the team's chances against stud right handed pitchers.

 

The names DBAHO mentions are interesting but Drew is the prototype for the player that the Sox need.

[upnorthsox]

Remember Paul Konerko last year?  His performance was also "declining".  Jones is only 27 years old and many many good years ahead of him.

And remember we're only at the half season point with Konerko, but then it's not like he's ever only given us a half good season before. .

[Dick Allen]

See this is what is wrong. Most people just look at a player's offensive numbers, and by that determine if he sucks or not.

 

Do you have any idea how many runs Jones has saved for the Braves this year?

 

With him in center our defense improves DRASTICALLY.

 

We know he can be an offensive threat too, and I seriously all he needs is a chance of scenery.

 

CWSOX45

I saw Jones misplay a ball terribly at USCF a week ago. He is a great CF, but if you are willing to pay him what his contract calls for, why not just re-sign Magglio, who is his superior offensively by a rather large margin. Atlanta is looking to add, so a trade with them would probably be a wash at best. You trade now with teams looking to dump, the price isn't nearly as high. And if this article is correct, Jones will be available in the off season, probably for prospects. Keep Magglio for the rest of the season, and if you really want Jones, go after him next winter. Replenish the farm system for the loss of prospects sent to Atlanta with the draft picks gained in losing Magglio.

[BrandoFan]

Do you have any idea how many runs Jones has saved for the Braves this year?

Do YOU?

 

He's gotten fatter and more complacent in the last 2 seasons. That's not just my opinion, either.

 

A few years back he was one of the best defensive CF of the modern era. Last couple of seasons, he's merely a Gold Glove candidate - better than Rowand (who is above average but has a chance to be close to GG level once he plays the position for a year or two without having to sit on the bench or be jerked around), but not by THAT much. AND, if you don't believe your eyes, it's supported by advanced defensive metrics - both Cameron and Beltran rank off the charts in the last 2 years while Jones went from being THE man in 1999-2002 to "merely" top 7, but not anywhere close to the standard he set earlier in his career.

 

Andruw Jones is flailing at and rolling over breaking balls and generally chasing pitcher's pitches. He is lost. Do you think that would be cured by USCF? Didn't help Konerko much last year, did it?

 

Again:

 

--Andruw has NO incentive to bust his ass anymore. Fat contract and all.

--His power numbers are very ordinary - bad pitch selection catches up to you.

--Last few years, he proved himself to be a BELOW-average clutch hitter compared to his All-Star peers. 3+ year sample size is good enough for me.

--He went from being a good base-runner to bad in just 3 years.

--He is on pace to 35 GIDP.....THIRTY FIVE!!!! Even slow-as-molasses Konerko will only ground into HALF of that amount. Even Mr.GIDP Ordonez is on pace to hit into 16 of them this year.

--His D is not THAT good anymore

--Atlanta beat reporter claims he is bothered by his knees.

 

This trade has NOTHING to do with Ortiz. Ortiz could be had for Rauch and a lesser prospect, or so it seems. This trade is Magglio for Andruw straight-up.

 

I'd rather take a chance on Maggs, hoping that he has an Albert Belle-esque 2nd half playing for a contract.

 

JD Drew on the other hand, I like. Not for Maggs, but if they want Paul Konerko (and a few prospects of course), then DO IT RIGHT NOW.

[GreenSox]

We would be stuck with Jones for 3.5 more years at a ridiculous salary of around $13 mill.

That makes no sense.

[Y2HH]

The Sox could possibly get Atlanta to absorb a few million of that per year salary of Jones.

 

Also...I think all that is really required for Jones is a change of scenery. Yes, he has become complacant, and he's also watched Atlanta allow all their star pitchers leave, what does he really have to play for now, when nobody in Atlanta thinks they have a chance in making it anywhere.

 

A Jones puts up great offensive numbers no matter how you cut it.

 

Just last year he batted in 116 runs, also hammering out 37 HRs.

 

Oh, and just because you see him misplay 1 ball here or there does NOT mean he's losing his touch, he's STILL VERY YOUNG, and it wouldn't take much to have him shed a few extra pounds (as we did with Carlos Lee).

 

I look at it this way, we can get Jones, a GREAT CF locked in for about 4 years (get Atlanta to take a little of that salary), and we lose Mags...who we are going to lose in three months anyway, so let go of the pipe dream of resigning him...Mags is GONE...Jones will supply 90% of that offense Mags would have given us, and improve our outfield TEN fold.

 

Change of leagues, change of scenery...I think it's exactly what the 27 year old Jones needs.

 

Jones career stats say this is an off year with a team that doesn't think it can win...I don't think he's DECLINING, and whoever said that is a moron...as last year was his best offensive year EVER. As for his defense declining, it's because he doesn't want to be in Atlanta anymore...a team WATCHING all of it's star pitchers leave...if he came to the Sox, I BET he's lose 10 pounds within a few weeks regaining his defensive form.

 

-Y2

[BrandoFan]

..I don't think he's DECLINING, and whoever said that is a moron...as last year was his best offensive year EVER

 

Wrong. 2000 was his best.

 

Last year, he was backed up by Sheffiled, Lopez, Chipper, Giles and Castilla; he didn't have to be THE man and yet he still put up a very ordinary OPS - for a supposed "star" anyway.

 

In 2001-2003, his clutch hitting was BAD relative to his peers, so you better not count on him in close games, and clutch-hitting (whether you ascribe it to skill, luck or both) is the ONLY thing that can make up for less-than-great overall production.

 

Yeah, he's gonna lose 15 pounds as soon as he comes here....yeah he is just feeling depressed cuz his team is not doing well.....Maybe he'll stop grounding into a DP every other game, too, while he's at it, uh-huh.

 

I would LOVE to have Andruw, but only if it costs us Konerko and prospects, and NOT Magglio who may - just may - have a great 2nd half trying to earn a big contract in the off-season. Remember Belle?

 

This team needs PITCHING and then after that need is alleviated, a LH power bat in the Drew/Finley mold, preferrably the former. We do need NOT need Andruw, trust me on this one.

 

Sorry to burst your hype bobble.

[Mr. Showtime]

Just to clear something up. I've seen a few folks say "Just pay Magglio, since the Jones contract is so close."

 

It's 2 million dollars less for Jones, and the big thing with Jerry Reinsdorf is that it's 2 years less. If Magglio wanted a 3 year deal it would've been done already, signing players to long term deals is dangerous in his world.

[beck72]

A key to a possible deal for a CFer like Andruw Jones is how much he would help improve the Sox pitching. That's the consideration Kenny Williams and staff must make. If he makes the difference that he has shown in the recent past, he'd be a big addition to the Sox.

 

The sox can add a SP and get bullpen help. Yet getting defensive help also improves the pitching. Is it enough to offset the loss of Maggs' numbers? I think so, as Maggs won't be the .300 hitter right away when he comes off the DL. Maggs may not be back to form until Aug. He also may re-injure the knee.

 

If Sox scouts knew Jones was healthy and in decent shape, Jones could probably help the Sox more than Maggs over the rest of the season.

[beck72]

This team needs PITCHING and then after that need is alleviated, a LH power bat in the Drew/Finley mold, preferrably the former. We do need NOT need Andruw, trust me on this one.   

Having better defensive players, esp in CF where he can make plays in LF and RF, would help improve the pitching staff. Rowand is decent. But not in the same class as Jones.

[BrandoFan]

Just to clear something up. I've seen a few folks say "Just pay Magglio, since the Jones contract is so close."

 

It's 2 million dollars less for Jones, and the big thing with Jerry Reinsdorf is that it's 2 years less. If Magglio wanted a 3 year deal it would've been done already, signing players to long term deals is dangerous in his world.

Jones' salary will average 13 Mill over 2005-2007.

 

That's only 1 extra Mill less than what Maggs wants - and that Mill will probably be deferred.

 

Since 2001, Maggs has been a much better hitter if you consider the clutch numbers, he plays good RF and his baserunner is very comparable to Andruw's.

 

Since I think Jones has slipped defensively just enough in the last 2 years to the point where he is no longer the Messiah in CF, and Magglio is a home grown product who might just put up career best numbers in the 2nd half playing for a contract........Why do this trade?

 

Yes, Andruw might get over his aching knees, lose 20 pounds, stop chasing pitches in the dirt, ground into DP and start hitting in the clutch - and become a GREAT player in the process. Yes, it may very well backfire if Maggs doesn't have a career 2nd half this year. I am willing to take that chance.

 

Give me Drew for Konerko and prospects instead.

[Disco72]

I'm not sure that I understand all the love for JD Drew on this board.

 

Here's a guy who has never played more than 135 games in a major league season (only twice played more than 109 games), has never hit 30 home runs in a season, whose career RBI best is 73, and is represented by the biggest money whore in the major leagues.

 

And he is the pick over Jones? Jones has had better offensive years, better defensive years, and is a year and half younger. Sure, there are questions about if Jones is complacent and declining... but Drew? Seems an even bigger risk.

[BrandoFan]

Having better defensive players, esp in CF where he can make plays in LF and RF, would help improve the pitching staff. Rowand is decent. But not in the same class as Jones.

I think you're still stuck in pre-2003 era.

 

In the last 2 seasons, Andruw has lost a step in quickness and is no longer busting his ass out there 100%. Both factors (health and effort) have lowered his CF skills from "great" to merely "very good".

 

I think you're underestimating Rowand's defense. He is now officially as fast as Jones and he's got more hustle. His arm is every bit as good. True, even now Jones gets better jumps than Rowand, but Aaron is hardly ever allowed to get in any sort of rhythm - he's been benched so much in 2002-2004. If he plays every day, you'll only see a slight defensive downgrade going from Jones to Rowand - not nearly as big as if you were to make this switch in, say, 2000.

 

Aaron also makes 350 K, which allows the Sox to spend the remaining 12 on PITCHING, PITCHING AND MORE PITCHING - you ain't going anywhere with Garland as your #3 and Shoenweiss as your #4.........NO MATTER IF IT'S ROWAND OR JONES PLAYING CF BEHIND THEM..

[Soxfest]

I'm not sure that I understand all the love for JD Drew on this board.

 

Here's a guy who has never played more than 135 games in a major league season (only twice played more than 109 games),  has never hit 30 home runs in a season, whose career RBI best is 73, and is represented by the biggest money whore in the major leagues. 

 

And he is the pick over Jones? Jones has had better offensive years, better defensive years, and is a year and half younger.  Sure, there are questions about if Jones is complacent and declining...  but Drew?  Seems an even bigger risk.

I agree Drew is a buster

[TLAK]

I'm not sure that I understand all the love for JD Drew on this board.

 

Here's a guy who has never played more than 135 games in a major league season (only twice played more than 109 games),  has never hit 30 home runs in a season, whose career RBI best is 73, and is represented by the biggest money whore in the major leagues. 

 

And he is the pick over Jones? Jones has had better offensive years, better defensive years, and is a year and half younger.  Sure, there are questions about if Jones is complacent and declining...  but Drew?  Seems an even bigger risk.

Most of the infatuation stems from his being a left handed bat. But he's also just plain good. Look at these numbers:

[WHarris1]

Ick, I think Brando is right about Andruw's D being overrated.

 

Looks at his Range Factor and Zone Rating.

Granted I don't use this stats that much I know it isn't good when he is in the bottom 5 in both.

[BrandoFan]

I'm not sure that I understand all the love for JD Drew on this board.

You're not sure? From another thread:

 

 

 

Drew:

 

-makes 4 Mill this year

-plays outstanding OF

-is a quality baserunner

-is out-producing Konerko while hitting in a pitcher's park

-is a lefty bat - Sox are much weaker against RHP and Konerko is another RH.

-seems pretty damn healthy for a change

[Disco72]

Regarding Drew - half a season does not make a player great. His previous major league stats do not suggest that he's anywhere near as good as his hype.

 

True, his salary for this year is attractive.

[CWSOX45]

Do YOU?

 

He's gotten fatter and more complacent in the last 2 seasons. That's not just my opinion, either.   

 

A few years back he was one of the best defensive CF of the modern era. Last couple of seasons, he's merely a Gold Glove candidate - better than Rowand (who is above average but has a chance to be close to GG level once he plays the position for a year or two without having to sit on the bench or be jerked around), but not by THAT much.    AND, if you don't believe your eyes,  it's supported by advanced defensive metrics - both Cameron and Beltran rank off the charts in the last 2 years while Jones went from being THE man in 1999-2002 to "merely" top 7, but not anywhere close to the standard he set earlier in his career. 

 

Andruw Jones is flailing at and rolling over breaking balls and generally chasing pitcher's pitches.  He is lost.    Do you think that would be cured by USCF?    Didn't help Konerko much last year, did it?

 

Again:

 

--Andruw has NO incentive to bust his ass anymore.    Fat contract and all.

--His power numbers are very ordinary - bad pitch selection catches up to you.

--Last few years, he proved himself to be a BELOW-average clutch hitter compared to his All-Star peers. 3+ year sample size is good enough for me.

--He went from being a good base-runner to bad in just 3 years.

--He is on pace to 35 GIDP.....THIRTY FIVE!!!!  Even slow-as-molasses Konerko will only ground into HALF of that amount. Even Mr.GIDP Ordonez is on pace to hit into 16 of them this year.

--His D is not THAT good anymore

--Atlanta beat reporter claims he is bothered by his knees.

 

This trade has NOTHING to do with Ortiz.    Ortiz could be had for Rauch and a lesser prospect, or so it seems. This trade is Magglio for Andruw straight-up.

 

I'd rather take a chance on Maggs, hoping that he has an Albert Belle-esque 2nd half playing for a contract.

 

JD Drew on the other hand, I like.    Not for Maggs, but if they want Paul Konerko (and a few prospects of course), then DO IT RIGHT NOW.

Yikes! That's our Brando.

 

Obviously you make some stellar points, some that I was not aware of.

 

So I really can't counter with much other than this:

 

I know Rowand is a great player, I've always felt he was underrated. He's a solid ballplayer, and is good defensively. However I can only imagine how solid we'd be if we had Andruw in center.

 

You also made a statement that Andruw Jones is lazy,and is fatter than in previous seasons, and doesn't give a damn because of his contract? Is it possible that being with a new team, and having a manager like Ozzie COULD light a fire under his ass?

 

 

As for re-signing Maggs, I don't think he wants to stay here even if the Sox did make him a solid offer. Even though he says he does, however I just can't see it happening.

 

CWSOX45

[Iguana]

i think i am on the Drew wagon. he'd take over in right for maggs and we'd still have Reed or Borchard for CF whenever one of them is ready.