Yet, El Duque has shown the ability to perform well in big games.

You got to get to the playoffs first.

If the comparison is having Orlando + AJ or Matt Clement, I'd take the former. That Orlando has pitched well in big games is an important factor in adding another SP. The sox have few players with a lot of playoff experience. Adding guys like Dye and Orlando [and possibly AJ] can only help during the reg. season when there are big games and series which determine who will make the playoffs.

You got to get to the playoffs first.

Everything you've said, in and of itself, is accurate. Yet it doesn't flow in a logical pattern. For example:

 

Buerle's not an ace because he hasn't proved he can win big cames in Sept.

The Sox should have used the money on El Duque to sign Clement.

 

But, Clement failed in the stretch last year and El Duque has proven to be a big game pitcher. The type of pitcher that can get you " to the playoffs first". Unlike Clement, who failed misably in the clutch for the Cubs.

If the comparison is having Orlando + AJ or Matt Clement, I'd take the former. That Orlando has pitched well in big games is an important factor in adding another SP. The sox have few players with a lot of playoff experience. Adding guys like Dye and Orlando [and possibly AJ] can only help during the reg. season when there are big games and series which determine who will make the playoffs.

What's to say Clement doesn't break down before El Duque either? Clement's arm could be hanging on by a thread if he throws too many of those nasty breaking sliders. That was always going to be a risk for the team that gave him a 3 year deal.

What's to say Clement doesn't break down before El Duque either? Clement's arm could be hanging on by a thread if he throws too many of those nasty breaking sliders. That was always going to be a risk for the team that gave him a 3 year deal.

And he faded big time during the stretch run. With his injury history and that slider he throws, Clement could very well go down before Hernandez.

i dont think KW would hesistate to sign iguchi if he came only for 2 million... he would bring in more fan's just because he is asian because unlike shingo he is a position player who the fans would see more of.

I keep hearing in some updates and reports on the AJ offer that other teams have made formal offers... anyone have any idea who the other teams may be.... I think the Dodgers probably are one, but nothing else is jumping out at me

i want aj and iguchi, go spend the 7 mil we have left on them KW. that should be plenty. aj at 3, gooch at 4. i would rather have those two than vasquez.

i want aj and iguchi, go spend the 7 mil we have left on them KW.  that should be plenty. aj at 3, gooch at 4.  i would rather have those two than vasquez.

I thought we had 6 mil with the money left over from the Lee trade, and we signed El Duque, how do we have more money than before?

I thought we had 6 mil with the money left over from the Lee trade, and we signed El Duque, how do we have more money than before?

Fuzzy math.

Fuzzy math.

That number has changed more times than Anne Heche on this board.

I thought we had 6 mil with the money left over from the Lee trade, and we signed El Duque, how do we have more money than before?

That's assuming we were already capped out when we traded Lee which, if they are budgeting themselves at $72 mil this yr was not the case. They are currently at about $67 mil (with $1 mil for ARow but that should be double that).

so 75-68 = 7 thats where i got that number. i wish fozzy did math.

 

raff's complicated process of thinking

75 million(payroll limit) minus 68 (payroll as of right now with rowand added in) = 7 million (what we have left) then i thought , , , , , , , , :puke , , , :puke , , , :sleep

What in MB's history shows he CAN pitch in those situations?  Nothing because he hasn't been in them.  We don't know until he's in that situation and that's all I pointed out when I posted the concerns I have about the rotation. 

 

I'll give you the perfect example, Mark Langston.  Great pitcher when there is no pressure but a gutless loser when the pressure is on.  See the Expos in 89 and the Angels.  He was great in Seattle when they were always out of the race by July.  And I'll never forget that gutless loser crying like a little girl in 95 during that one game playoff against Seattle.  The gutless loser couldn't handle it.

 

With that said, I'm not saying that MB would be the next Langston.  All I'm saying is that he hasn't faced that situation and until/unless he does, we won't know how he handles the pressure.

What the hell is your point exactly? So we shouldn't rely on Mark pitching well just because he's never been in that situation? There are plenty of very good pitchers that never been in the situation that you talk about and to think that they will crumble in that situation is ludicrous...

 

What from Mark's past? Hmm...How about his dominance of a team that has owned the Sox in the past 3-4 years? Every game we play against the Twins is big. Take for instance the game with the Twins and the Hunter/Burke incident. You don't think that that game had a lot of pressure? When the Sox play the Twins, those are pressure games. Winning 11 of 17 starts (in the past 3 years) against a team that has kicked our ass in recent history, shows you that Mark is capable of pitching in the big game.

 

Nice example by the way, a pitcher from the 80's. For every one you show that crumbled I could show at least a dozen that either pitched the same or stepped it up...

 

So what if we don't know. You could say that about EVERY SINGLE MAJOR LEAGUER in some situation or another...We don't know how Barry Bonds will react in game 7 2 outs tie game...blah blah blah...we don't know how Aaron Rowand will do when we need a bunt down in the 9th come September's playoff race...But I want these guys in those situations, as every Sox fan should want Mark in that situation...Freddy pitched well for Seattle in 2000's WC race, but just because Freddy has been there means very very little to me...I still want Mark having the ball in that situation over Freddy, no doubt...

What the hell is your point exactly?  So we shouldn't rely on Mark pitching well just because he's never been in that situation?  There are plenty of very good pitchers that never been in the situation that you talk about and to think that they will crumble in that situation is ludicrous...

 

What from Mark's past?  Hmm...How about his dominance of a team that has owned the Sox in the past 3-4 years?  Every game we play against the Twins is big.  Take for instance the game with the Twins and the Hunter/Burke incident.  You don't think that that game had a lot of pressure?  When the Sox play the Twins, those are pressure games.  Winning 11 of 17 starts (in the past 3 years) against a team that has kicked our ass in recent history, shows you that Mark is capable of pitching in the big game.

 

Nice example by the way, a pitcher from the 80's.  For every one you show that crumbled I could show at least a dozen that either pitched the same or stepped it up...

 

So what if we don't know.  You could say that about EVERY SINGLE MAJOR LEAGUER in some situation or another...We don't know how Barry Bonds will react in game 7 2 outs tie game...blah blah blah...we don't know how Aaron Rowand will do when we need a bunt down in the 9th come September's playoff race...But I want these guys in those situations, as every Sox fan should want Mark in that situation...Freddy pitched well for Seattle in 2000's WC race, but just because Freddy has been there means very very little to me...I still want Mark having the ball in that situation over Freddy, no doubt...

Here I'll type very slowly so somebody as slow as yourself can understand. MB has never been in that situation before. We don't know for sure if he can handle that situation. We could go back and forth and say Yes he can or No he can't. BUT until and unless MB gets into a pennant race we won't know.

 

Now I'll type that again, so even you can understand.

 

Here I'll type very slowly so somebody as slow as yourself can understand. MB has never been in that situation before. We don't know for sure if he can handle that situation. We could go back and forth and say Yes he can or No he can't. BUT until and unless MB gets into a pennant race we won't know.

 

And if you think Freddy pitched well in 2002 you're a fool. He was part of the reason for the Mariners choking the division and WC away. And please name me the dozen of pitchers who stepped up?

Do you know what pressure games mean?  They aren't in April or May.  They are in August and Sept when your team is within 3-5 games of first place.  The White Sox haven't been in that position for so long that we don't know how MB will handle those situations.  You know what a big game pitcher is?  Andy Pettite when he was with the Yankees.  August and Sept he was awesome. 

 

Talk is cheap, we can talk until we are blue in the face but until MB is in that situation then we'll find out if he's a real big game pitcher.

Actually that's not true and I'm surprised that everyone has seemed to have forgotten. Sept 9th 2003 Mark won the 2nd game of a 4 game set with Minny going 6 IP with 2 ER and giving the Sox a 2 gm lead with a chance to put Minny away. He'd also win his next 2 games vs Boston and KC and would pitch his 3rd and last gm vs NYY going 7 IP with 2 ER but would end up losing to Contreras who shutout the Sox even though Buehrle pitch him to a draw for 6 inning after giving up a 1st inning solo shot. He could've pitched the season finale for his 3rd consecutive 15 win season and 4 win in 5 for September but instead he let Loaiza pitch it to tie the Mexican single season win record which will most likely be the only highlight in his career.

Actually that's not true and I'm surprised that everyone has seemed to have forgotten. Sept 9th 2003 Mark won the 2nd game of a 4 game set with Minny going 6 IP with 2 ER and giving the Sox a 2 gm lead with a chance to put Minny away. He'd also win his next 2 games vs Boston and KC and would pitch his 3rd and last gm vs NYY going 7 IP with 2 ER but would end up losing to Contreras who shutout the Sox even though Buehrle pitch him to a draw for 6 inning after giving up a 1st inning solo shot. He could've pitched the season finale for his 3rd consecutive 15 win season and 4 win in 5 for September but instead he let Loaiza pitch it to tie the Mexican single season win record which will most likely be the only highlight in his career.

Thanks for proving my point. An ace wouldn't have lost the game against the Yankees.

Thanks for proving my point.  An ace wouldn't have lost the game against the Yankees.

7 IP and 2 ER. I would say that's an oustanding game for an ace or any pitcher. The offense has to help you there. Your point is way off.

QUOTE (KittleWalk83 @ Dec 31, 2004 -> 03:32 PM)

Here I'll type very slowly so somebody as slow as yourself can understand. MB has never been in that situation before. We don't know for sure if he can handle that situation. We could go back and forth and say Yes he can or No he can't. BUT until and unless MB gets into a pennant race we won't know.   Now I'll type that again, so even you can understand.   Here I'll type very slowly so somebody as slow as yourself can understand. MB has never been in that situation before. We don't know for sure if he can handle that situation. We could go back and forth and say Yes he can or No he can't. BUT until and unless MB gets into a pennant race we won't know.   And if you think Freddy pitched well in 2002 you're a fool. He was part of the reason for the Mariners choking the division and WC away. And please name me the dozen of pitchers who stepped up? Apparently you keep avoiding the question...What relevance does that have? Can't you say that about ANY major league in some situation or another? Are you trying to say that we can't count on Mark down the stretch? You're point sucks...     I'll type very slowly for you...I said 2000, when the M's were the WC winners...I didn't say 2002...Read...

QUOTE (whitesox91403 @ Dec 31, 2004 -> 04:06 PM)

7 IP and 2 ER. I would say that's an oustanding game for an ace or any pitcher. The offense has to help you there. Your point is way off. No **** his point is off....