Terri Shaivo thread

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

You are the first person who I know is neutral. Since life or death decisions are probably more common in your line of work than mine, is a living will required for military personnel? Is the decision left up to the military? How is it handled in the service?

 

 

If you are married and you're going to deploy somewhere its required for you to have a will and a power of attorney set up although I dont think most of us even think about making a decision like that in their will and they dont require it. I'm sure the JAG guy helping out suggests writing a provision like that in there though.

[Steff]

I lost a brother to drunk driving, don't you think that has an effect on my opinions on drunk driving? The father who lost a son to steroids, don't you think that has an effect on his opinion of steroids? Don't you think having a child effects your opinion on a parents role?

 

I don't believe you are saying she should die because she requires a feeding tube.

 

 

Well.. I don't have any tolerance for drunk drivers and people who use illegal dugs... yet I have no kids.

 

And no.. I'm not saying that. I have not made a conclusion one way or the other. I am stuck on her right.. not her life.

 

I have no interest in playing God.

[Steff]

Steff said that because Terri needs a feeding tube Terri is on life support...

 

 

No Tex.. I said that I would not want to be on LS, and to ME a feeing tube in her, as opposed to Chris Reeves, condition is LS.

[Steff]

I don't think Steff was saying we should have all people on feeding tubes pulled, but she can correct me if I'm wrong on that...

 

 

 

You're correct.. I don't think that.

[Steff]

Basically if I was in Terri's case I would want to die.

 

 

 

That's exactly, and all, I have been saying.

[Texsox]

No Tex.. I said that I would not want to be on LS, and to ME a feeing tube in her, as opposed to Chris Reeves, condition is LS.

 

And as I stated, it is the state of her brain, or lack there of, that is a more compelling reason to wish her a speedy death, than that she needs a feeding tube. I did not consider a feeding tube, as a LS in most cases. Comas, paraplegics, etc. all need them.

 

That's exactly, and all, I have been saying.

 

I did not mean to dismiss anyones opinions because they do not have kids. I understand how frustrating that is. On many occasions here the views who people who attend Church are dismissed because they are religious. That frustrates me, and I apologize if that was how some of y'all took my comment.

 

In retrospect I should have said, people with kids are more likely to support parental rights than someone without kids based on their experiences as a parent. It is their flesh and blood, their DNA. It is an indescribable bond. I saw the inverse as easier to point out based on the posters her who have taken the time to share their opinions.

 

Just like likely voters for a school referendum are usually parents of school age kids. Or people with handguns are more likely to not support gun restrictions. It seems obvious to me, but if other people's experiences and ways of thinking are different, who am I to disagree on how someone claims to think.

[Soxy]

On many occasions here the views who people who attend Church are dismissed because they are religious. That frustrates me, and I apologize if that was how some of y'all took my comment.

 

As someone that attends services weekly, I think that the views of some people are dismissed because they cannot "play nice," and resort to belitting, rude, and lowest common denominator responses.

[Texsox]

As someone that attends services weekly, I think that the views of some people are dismissed because they cannot "play nice," and resort to belitting, rude, and lowest common denominator responses.

 

Very true. I was thinking of times, like in the Howard Stern thread that the comment was made "I don't want some religious wacko making decision on what I can and cannot listen to". PR campaign my religious groups are held in disdain. As if everyone who attends Church holds the same views and they are somehow programmed.

 

I think for some people, the end justifies the means. It wouldn't matter who asked for the feeding tube to be pulled, the "husband", the parents, or a Martian, as long as her life was ended, they would be fine with it. I can certainly respect that opinion, and can understand wishing to see her finally dead. Too bad she has to die a slow death.

 

I feel, in this case, absent of a living will, that her parents should be making the decision, not her spouse who has moved on with his life and would benefit from her passing.

 

When judging people's motives, one thing I look at is what they gain. He gains freedom and possibly some cash, the parents gain a lifetime of caring for a daughter who probably will never talk, eat on her own, or anything. And as I admitted, my experiences as a parent also tug at me. Blood is thinker than water, I believe is the phrase.

 

I pray none of us are in this situation.

[JUGGERNAUT]

As this case continues to play out it's unwinding more & more like a Hollywood tragedy & you have to start asking where we all these people since Aug, 2004?

 

The news media hasn't just made Terri Schiavo the top story. They've made it the biggest story since the Gulf War. On both FOX & MSNBC it's nearly all Terri all the time. A big part of that is because the Catholic Church & the Vatican have been so focused on this case & with the Pope's

own health ailing that intensifies the coverage. The net effect of all this

is that the nation is learning a lot about the dissenting opinion in this case:

- a large number of PVS cases are usually misdiagnosed

- PET scans short of exploratory surgery are the best means to diagnose

- testimony by care givers claiming Michael wanted her to die before he even filed a motion to remove the tubes,

- questions surrounded her bulima

 

The list goes on & on & on. The media is certainly doing it's job of raising the spectrum on reasonable doubt in this case. The book Kate's Journey & the author is touring the news ckt because she was a PVS that made it back. She says they misdiagnosed her case early on to such a degree that she was feeling pain during the surgery for her feeding tubes. She was not put under beforehand. Her husband was told there was no hope & he shouldn't bother with rehabilitation but her husband felt her right to live was strong & he went ahead with it. She got better & over 9 yrs she made her way back.

 

When all of this comes to your attention you can't help think about your own sister in this case. He makes your heart cry out for Terri & it creates a serious cloud of doubt over Michael. But be that as it may Terri's life is not more important than the rule of law. As a right leaning social moderate my mind has come to grips with my heart that Terri is going to die because the efforts of the people fighting for her right-to-live have done to little to late. Mainly the FL legislature & Gov Bush.

[Texsox]

I've had to rewrite a couple of my recent posts, because I used language that she was already dead. As in no heart beat. Defining life is a tricky prospect and no one is 100% happy with any definition. With Terri, some people see a beating heart, functioning lung, eyes that move, focal cords the make noises and see life. Still other intelligent, caring individuals see no brain activity beyond the most basic and see death.

 

for everyone. May God help those involved to make the right decision and may this help others to avoid this gut wretching situation.

 

Live simply so that others may simply live.

 

-Gandhi (submitted by justjodi)

Edited March 23, 2005 by Texsox

[sec159row2]

Is anyone else sick of this already?  I am and I also dont like the fact that Congress and the president are meddling in this.  I think they have more important things to worry about.

 

 

I with ya...

[sec159row2]

Hannity & Combes:

 

1-Terri has never had an MRI or a PET which would present a much clearer picture of her condition.

 

2-There is the possibility that in the event of Terri's death Bobby Schindler will pursue a murder charge against Michael Schiavo. 

 

3- Bobby Schindler stated that what the Federal law does is afford right-to-life patients the same rights that convicted killers receive on death row.  That is the right to question whether due process rights were violated in the state's deliberation of the case.

 

4- They are awaiting on a decision by the Federal Court of Appeals in ATL

as to whether the tube is to be re-inserted. 

 

5- Carla Sauer Iyer has very damaging testimony against Schiavo.

Her sworn affidavit states that Schiavo would ask when she is going to die,

how long before she dies, & why hasn't she died yet in 1995-1996.

 

She likewise stated that Terri was noticeably upset after Michael's visits

in 1995-1996.  Carla also indicates that Terri actually was speaking small

words after that time. There are two more affidavits by care givers

supporting Carla's testimony.  She appearently said "Mommy help me."

 

There have been 33 medical professionals who have observed Terri who

do not believe that Terri is in a PVS.

 

We're looking at this from colored classes but it's a different experience if you are there live watching your sister looking worse & worse as each day goes by. 

 

Even if I was a neurosurgeon & knew better I would cling to any hope even if it was less than 1% to keep my sister alive if I thought deep down inside that's what she wanted.   

 

I don't know if this helps but we've talked about this extensively over the weekend.  We both believe in sci-tech's future & the leap's our society will make in the decades to come.  That's heavily influencing our decision.

Our living will:  If either of us should find ourselves in a state where our right-to-die rights are called into question we choose right-to-live.  The only exception being that of unanimous medical opinion in conjunction with either herself or me that we are experiencing intolerable pain.

 

When you pursue a field in science, engineering, R&D, there is one central theme that should follow you throughout your life: nothing is impossible.

We don't look upon limits as universal but rather temporary.  They exist simply because we lack the knowledge to overcome them.

 

 

JUG... fox news..??? fair and balanced :puke

[sec159row2]

As this case continues to play out it's unwinding more & more like a Hollywood tragedy & you have to start asking where we all these people since Aug, 2004?

 

The news media hasn't just made Terri Schiavo the top story.  They've made it the biggest story since the Gulf War.  On both FOX & MSNBC it's nearly all Terri all the time.  A big part of that is because the Catholic Church & the Vatican have been so focused on this case & with the Pope's

own health ailing that intensifies the coverage.  The net effect of all this

is that the nation is learning a lot about the dissenting opinion in this case:

- a large number of PVS cases are usually misdiagnosed

- PET scans short of exploratory surgery are the best means to diagnose

- testimony by care givers claiming Michael wanted her to die before he even filed a motion to remove the tubes,

- questions surrounded her bulima

 

The list goes on & on & on.  The media is certainly doing it's job of raising the spectrum on reasonable doubt in this case.  The book Kate's Journey & the author is touring the news ckt because she was a PVS that made it back.  She says they misdiagnosed her case early on to such a degree that she was feeling pain during the surgery for her feeding tubes.  She was not put under beforehand.  Her husband was told there was no hope & he shouldn't bother with rehabilitation but her husband felt her right to live was strong & he went ahead with it.  She got better & over 9 yrs she made her way back.

 

When all of this comes to your attention you can't help think about your own sister in this case.  He makes your heart cry out for Terri & it creates a serious cloud of doubt over Michael. But be that as it may Terri's life is not more important than the rule of law.  As a right leaning social moderate my mind has come to grips with my heart that Terri is going to die because the efforts of the people fighting for her right-to-live have done to little to late.  Mainly the FL legislature & Gov Bush.

 

 

maybe you should try needle point or model cars or something... there's a reason it's called the boob tube...

[JUGGERNAUT]

Schiavo's Law - what we have learned in the past 2 days is that those who were against this law grossly overstated it's intent & use. All this law really does is provide persons in Terri's state the same rights that death row inmates have. The key being that there is must be at least 1 convincing argument as to why a person's rights to due process were violated & why the case deserves an extensive review.

 

That's it. Hardly a tool for the US Congress to control the tubes so to speak.

 

Ultimately the fault lies with the FL legislature & Gov Bush. He should have steered the legislature towards changing the guardianship laws before the case came before Greer. Whether Michael is evil or good he did follow the letter of the law & was smart to defer Terri's right to die to the judge. As far as the state of FL was concerned w/out a legislative action Greer was the final say on Terri's life.

 

What is somewhat overlooked by the media is that following that decision

Michael's side has not really been involved. This is all about Greer's decision & the Schindlers desire to overturn it. If Michael were to suddenly change his mind & seek Terri's right-to-live I don't think that it would change anything. There just isn't enough time. He would have to file a motion stating new evidence has come to his attention believing that Terri would have choosen to life. But that extraordinary reversal would not move quickly through the courts.

 

FL's legislature needed to act before Greer assumed that role & it didn't.

You can blame Michael for not fighting for Terri's right to live in light of all the doubt being talked about but once Greer assumed his role in this Michael's part ended. His side was simply prepared to file an appeal in the event Greer's decision was overturned or Schiavo's Law had led to an extensive review of the case.

 

They may still act. There is the possibility of the Schindlers pursuing a wrongful death suit in this case. With all the sworn testimony that has been filed to cast doubt that alone will lead to an extensive review of the case. If the FL legislature were to strip Michael of his guardianship rights

with a change in the law that would serve as a symbolic gesture of were the state of FL stands on that doubt. Those rights might be worth millions.

In life & in death Terri is & will be considered a celebrity. Even without

a wrongful death suit the book & movie rights to her story will be worth

millions. I would expect Michael to fight hard to retain those rights.

[mreye]

This is the first time I've opened this thread and I'll admit, I'm not going to read all 16 pages.

 

I originally was on the side of the Husband. Why should the parents be allowed to overstep his marital rights? I've since done a complete 180 after learning that he has a girlfriend and 2 kids with her. A nurse has come out claiming that he injected her with insulin in the hospital. The family claims the day before she went into the coma she told them she was leaving her husband. For years he has refused any kind of treatment or therapy for her. Even telling a nurse that had just given her a cold washcloth to hold onto that it was therapy and to remove it. Her brother (I think it was her brother) said that he went with his sister to a home to visit their Grandmother who had a feeding tube and there were others in the same condition and she never mentioned a thing about not wanting to live like that. That's usually the time when people say things like that.

 

All this doesn't seem right to me. What's his motive? Why is this so important to him? Sickness and health? Death do us part? This guy is breaking every vow he made. It's sad. I pray for her and the souls of the people that are basically giving her, an innocent person, a death sentence.

[sec159row2]

Schiavo's Law - what we have learned in the past 2 days is that those who were against this law grossly overstated it's intent & use.  All this law really does is provide persons in Terri's state the same rights that death row inmates have.  The key being that there is must be at least 1 convincing argument as to why a person's rights to due process were violated & why the case deserves an extensive review. 

 

That's it.  Hardly a tool for the US Congress to control the tubes so to speak.

 

Ultimately the fault lies with the FL legislature & Gov Bush.  He should have steered the legislature towards changing the guardianship laws before the case came before Greer.  Whether Michael is evil or good he did follow the letter of the law & was smart to defer Terri's right to die to the judge.  As far as the state of FL was concerned w/out a legislative action Greer was the final say on Terri's life.

 

What is somewhat overlooked by the media is that following that decision

Michael's side has not really been involved.  This is all about Greer's decision & the Schindlers desire to overturn it.  If Michael were to suddenly change his mind & seek Terri's right-to-live I don't think that it would change anything.  There just isn't enough time.  He would have to file a motion stating new evidence has come to his attention believing that Terri would have choosen to life.  But that extraordinary reversal would not move quickly through the courts.

 

FL's legislature needed to act before Greer assumed that role & it didn't.

You can blame Michael for not fighting for Terri's right to live in light of all the doubt being talked about but once Greer assumed his role in this Michael's part ended.  His side was simply prepared to file an appeal in the event Greer's decision was overturned or Schiavo's Law had led to an extensive review of the case. 

 

They may still act.  There is the possibility of the Schindlers pursuing a wrongful death suit in this case.  With all the sworn testimony that has been filed to cast doubt that alone will lead to an extensive review of the case.  If the FL legislature were to strip Michael of his guardianship rights

with a change in the law that would serve as a symbolic gesture of were the state of FL stands on that doubt.  Those rights might be worth millions.

In life & in death Terri is & will be considered a celebrity.  Even without

a wrongful death suit the book & movie rights to her story will be worth

millions.  I would expect Michael to fight hard to retain those rights.

 

dude you really need a hobby... turn off the TV already...

[Texsox]

This is the first time I've opened this thread and I'll admit, I'm not going to read all 16 pages.

 

I originally was on the side of the Husband. Why should the parents be allowed to overstep his marital rights? I've since done a complete 180 after learning that he has a girlfriend and 2 kids with her. A nurse has come out claiming that he injected her with insulin in the hospital. The family claims the day before she went into the coma she told them she was leaving her husband. For years he has refused any kind of treatment or therapy for her. Even telling a nurse that had just given her a cold washcloth to hold onto that it was therapy and to remove it. Her brother (I think it was her brother) said that he went with his sister to a home to visit their Grandmother who had a feeding tube and there were others in the same condition and she never mentioned a thing about not wanting to live like that. That's usually the time when people say things like that.

 

All this doesn't seem right to me. What's his motive? Why is this so important to him? Sickness and health? Death do us part? This guy is breaking every vow he made. It's sad. I pray for her and the souls of the people that are basically giving her, an innocent person, a death sentence.

 

 

If this guy had stayed by her side until the end, I would support his rights as a spouse. I do not consider him anything more than her "legal" spouse. My wife and I agree that unconditional love would have us at each other's bedside, and if we were the patient, would want the other happiness. I know I would not be happy abondoning her.

 

I also do not believe much of the rhetoric on either side. Many people would lie to save a life. People are getting desperate or frustrated.

[mreye]

If this guy had stayed by her side until the end, I would support his rights as a spouse. I do not consider him anything more than her "legal" spouse. My wife and I agree that unconditional love would have us at each other's bedside, and if we were the patient, would want the other happiness. I know I would not be happy abondoning her.

 

I also do not believe much of the rhetoric on either side. Many people would lie to save a life. People are getting desperate or frustrated.

My wife and I stayed up pretty late last night discussing this and we both agree that if there's any hint of a chance we would want any and every thing done. This guy is a classless jerk, in my opinion.

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://www.foley.com/publications/pub_detail.aspx?pubid=1759

Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Department of Health, 497 U.S. 261 (1990)

USSC assumed the US Cons grants a competent person a cons protected right to refuse lifesaving hydration & nutrition, but it held that it was not unconstitutional for MO to direct a procedural safeguard related to surrogates' decisions. In the case of MO that safeguard is clear & convincing evidence of an incompetent's wishes for the withdrawal of treatement.

 

When you look at the particulars of this case & compare it to the Cruzan case Terri's life would not be in question in the state of MO. The state judiciary would have ruled that Michael's testimony does not constitute clear & convincing evidence. Especially in light of it being contested by the parents.

 

That's the real tragedy here. Terri's life would have followed a completely different course in MO than in FL. In MO the Schindler's most likely would have secured guardianship rights from Michael & Terri would have begun rehabilitation more than 10 yrs ago. Michael most likely would not have even had the opportunity to file a motion to have her tubes removed.

 

Terri's case is now before the USSC. The USSC has a history of controversial decisions that amount to legislative action from the bench.

The most noteable case being Roe v Wade. That case overturned all lower courts decisions. The USSC has repeatedly rejected appeals on the Schiavo case but that was before the new congressional law passed.

The most recent appeals were filed under the sections defined in that law.

 

Outside of the USSC the FL legislature could pass a law which includes the MO safeguard. Whether such a law would be up to par with the FL Cons is in doubt but the passage of the law could put the tube back in. If under any circumstance Schiavo's tube is reinstated most experts believe it will be left in place for several years as the case comes under extensive review.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Something I want you all to think about when deciding your living wills:

 

I no longer believe right to die rights belong in the states. It has nothing to do with my being right leaning moderate & everything having to do with

the future of the world & our nation.

 

It's a well known fact that in many areas of medical science & tech that

the world is progressing faster than America. The list of procedures not approved in the USA but available around the world is growing faster every year. Most of the nations of the world do not have the medical beuracracy

the US has.

 

As long as the right to die rights belong in the hands of the state your fate

resides in the hands of your surviving proxy & the state. If you have no surviving proxy & your living will leaves the state any room to assume your right to die your fate will most likely rest in the court's appointed medical experts in your state.

 

That's the key here. They would have to reside in your state. If the medical experts are appointed at the Federal level that increases the pool of experts that would weigh in on the decision. The best in the nation could be represented. Which makes more logical sense to you?

 

Our living will is going to clearly choose right to life. The only exception being intolerable pain & suffering. I recommend you to do the same.

[Rex Kickass]

I am completely neutral on this issue.  I'm just sick of hearing about it constantly.

 

Me too, pretty much. I'm just concerned that state's rights are being thrown off the reservation for one single case. Especially when it's only to gain political points with a single issue voting group.

[Steff]

JUG...  fox news..???  fair and balanced :puke

 

 

 

Jug apparently has a problem finding reputable accurate information..

[LosMediasBlancas]

Me too, pretty much. I'm just concerned that state's rights are being thrown off the reservation for one single case. Especially when it's only to gain political points with a single issue voting group.

 

 

This woman is being used in a personal and legal tug of war. The longer it goes on, the more she is being humiliated.

[mreye]

This woman is being used in a personal and legal tug of war. The longer it goes on, the more she is being humiliated.

Better humiliated than killed.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Jug apparently has a problem finding reputable accurate information..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Typical bulls*** by the typical people who feel a need to post it :rolly

I said both FOX & MSNBC. Perhaps MSNBC is not a reputable source either for you.

FOX - is covering this from the FL perpsective

MSNBC - is focusing much more on the Vatican perspective

Edited March 23, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT