Our manager is clueless with the bullpen

[nvxplorer]

I would have hoped that this organization has learned that the Twins aren't going away.  We can't afford to just "give up a game" because we're trying to see if some pitcher, who is nowhere near a main contributor on this team, can actually get a lefty batter out.

I'd agree with you except for the fact that Shingo and Vizcaino can't get anyone out either.

 

It's not that the Sox can or can't afford to give up a game. They had no choice. They had to pitch Walker to see what he could do. With all the close games, the Sox haven't had a chance to use him. They probably wanted to test him in non-critical situations, but those situations haven't existed.

 

Think about it. If it was already decided that Walker would be the one going down, do you think they would have brought him in today? I doubt it. The decision had not yet been made, and they needed to pitch Walker in order to make that decision. If Shingo and/or Vizcaino had been effective, this would be a moot point, but I believe the Sox were hinging their decision on Walker's performance today.

[quickman]

I agree that it makes no sense from the standpoint of this game, but I don't think the outcome of this early season game was the motivation for using Walker.

 

This was the last chance they had to see Walker pitch before El Duque comes back. The team obviously saw something in him, or they wouldn't have brought him up in the first place. What that something is, I don't know, but I don't work for the Sox farm system.

 

I'm guessing that Walker was slated to pitch today regardless of the game situation. It's actually beneficial that he was put into a critical situation. If the Sox had been up or down by a bunch, that component of his evaluation would be missing.

 

I see it as a big picture move, not a game move. If this were September in the same situation, I highly doubt Ozzie would have used Walker.

 

 

NV- You seem rational, and I apprecaite that. I will not continue to argue as I disagree with you. Ozzie has had two weeks to get this guy in a game. he chose today after we took a lead. He knew as everyone in the park knew he would be sent down despite what he did to make room for elduque, yet he makes the move to bring in a guy against a potent lineup in a 1 run game in the seventh inning. Well I think that is dumb. Nobody not even Ozzie the asshole himself could convince me otherwise. personally I would like Ozzie to think about my 12k I fork out for my seats the next time he wants to forgo a game with his off the wall thinking. remember that we actaully go to the game to see them win, then think about his moves and crap replacements. it was not logical at all, and he should take the heat. I personally beleive Ozzie is nuts and it will indeed catch up to him.

[quickman]

Harris/Ozuna/Everett can all play the outfield just as good as no range Timo. 

 

Gload can hit a heck of a lot better than Omit.

Gload can play first a lot better than Omit.

 

The only reason Gload isnt up is because that would make Omit expendable and who would tug at Ozzies nuts if Omit wasnt here.

 

Burke could be up and play first. Why is a 5'7 midget who hasnt played 1st in the majors dancing around 1st dropping balls with a brand spanking new unbroken in mitt.  Come on this isnt little league.

 

 

ithink your saying you agree with me

[fathom]

Think about it. If it was already decided that Walker would be the one going down, do you think they would have brought him in today? I doubt it. The decision had not yet been made, and they needed to pitch Walker in order to make that decision. If Shingo and/or Vizcaino had been effective, this would be a moot point, but I believe the Sox were hinging their decision on Walker's performance today.

 

Yes, I think Walker would have been brought in. Ozzie loves the lefty-lefty match-ups so much, he didn't even bring our closer in on Monday. BTW, I also agree that you seem to know a good amount of baseball, and just because I disagree with you, it doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion

[quickman]

I'd agree with you except for the fact that Shingo and Vizcaino can't get anyone out either.

 

It's not that the Sox can or can't afford to give up a game. They had no choice. They had to pitch Walker to see what he could do. With all the close games, the Sox haven't had a chance to use him. They probably wanted to test him in non-critical situations, but those situations haven't existed.

 

Think about it. If it was already decided that Walker would be the one going down, do you think they would have brought him in today? I doubt it. The decision had not yet been made, and they needed to pitch Walker in order to make that decision. If Shingo and/or Vizcaino had been effective, this would be a moot point, but I believe the Sox were hinging their decision on Walker's performance today.

 

 

No it was decided, thats where the logic falls apart. I heard ozzie on the post game coming home. He claimed that Cotts and marte were overused thats why he pitched walker. Thats crap, I can see marte but not cotts. and even if marte was over used, you have a day off tommorrow. Suck it up and throw. If your logic is we are short handed in the pen and pitching around shingo and Vizcaino, still suck it up and pitch who you want, plus find a new home fro shingo if you can;t use him.

[fathom]

We have way too many relievers that Ozzie doesn't have confidence in right now. Meanwhile, every Twins reliever has an ERA of about 0.25 it seems.

[nvxplorer]

He could of ran Walker out there for a few innings on Friday and Sunday and called it a year.  Why bring this turd in with the game on the line.

Unless what you're trying to determine is whether the player can pitch in game situations.

 

If Walker had pitched against Texas and done well, they may have kept him and sent Shingo or Vizcaino down. Pitching in those situations is very different than when the game is on the line, however. Shingo and Vizcaino have track records. Walker does not. The only way to evaluate this guy is to pitch him.

 

Every team brings up players from the minors who fail. It's not particular to the Sox. This happens everywhere, all the time. Eric Gagne did not become who he is by pitching mop up. He had to be tested at one point or another. The same holds true for everyone. Walker was tested, and he failed. It wasn't the first nor will it be the last time a call-up has failed to produce. That's baseball.

Edited June 2, 2005 by nvxplorer

[quickman]

We have way too many relievers that Ozzie doesn't have confidence in right now.  Meanwhile, every Twins reliever has an ERA of about 0.25 it seems.

 

 

so if we are a real team, get rid of the one syou don't need and get new ones. Prove to me you are going for it.

[DBAHO]

For those who believe we would have a better record if Ozzie wasn't our manager, what a load of BS. Look at our record in 1 run games. Look at the players he forced KW to bring in.

 

Now yes Perez should not have been playing at 1st for Konerkp. But a lot of ppl hav been b****ing lately, "Give Konerko a rest, he can't hit for s***".

 

Alex you say there aren't a lot of SS's who hit worse than Juan Uribe. Let me start a list;

Orlando Cabrera

Juan Castro

Cristian Guzman

Royce Clayton

Adam Everett

Rafael Furcal

Marco Scutaro

Jack Wilson

 

Now a lot of people are also complaining, why wasn't Marte brought in instead of Walker? Do you think it would have been a good move after last night? Everyone is saying, he isn't pitching like the Marte of old, and is getting hit hard. What's to say that wouldn't of happened again, and his confidence would be even more shot?

 

Cliff Politte just isn't used enough. Period.

 

Of course if Walker didn't pitch tonight, more questions would start getting asked. What's the point in having a lefty reliever, if you are not going to use him. At least now, he's off the team, which is what a lot of people wanted in the 1st place.

 

And Jabroni, I ask you this. Do you still think Kevin Walker has the POTENTIAL to be a better pitcher than Neal Cotts? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it.

[DBAHO]

We have way too many relievers that Ozzie doesn't have confidence in right now.  Meanwhile, every Twins reliever has an ERA of about 0.25 it seems.

And every other team in the MLB would love to have a great young bullpen like there's believe me. Matt Guerrier and Terry Mulholland (would they even have made our pen at the start of the year?), both have ERA's of above 3.

[quickman]

Unless what you're trying to determine is whether the player can pitch in game situations.

 

If Walker had pitched against Texas and done well, they may have kept him and sent Shingo or Vizcaino down. Pitching in those situations is very different than when the game is on the line, however. Shingo and Vizcaino have track records. Walker does not. The only way to evaluate this guy is to pitch him.

 

Every team brings up players from the minors who fail. It's not particular to the Sox. This happens everywhere, all the time. Eric Gagne did not become who he is by pitching mop up. He had to be tested at one point or another. The same holds true for everyone. Walker was tested, and he failed. It wasn't the first nor will it be the last time a call-up has failed to produce. That's baseball.

 

 

Ok I need to sleep, but you sound like a past or present minor league pitcher. if you are I hope your good, because if your not I don't want you near my team. Like I said you seem reasonable, but your too forgiving. Walker blows, that simple. Perez blows that simple. Too many second chances. Take the second chances to colorado or KC, not here. I really have no use nor the patience for anyone that won't produce. My perogitive. My money , my investment, my time. You want all of those, than produce and don't be stupid. ( not you) the manager.

[DBAHO]

so if we are a real team, get rid of the one syou don't need and get new ones. Prove to me you are going for it.

But who is out there, (in-house and on other teams), that we can just magically go, here you go, join our bullpen? (besides Baj)

[fathom]

Alex you say there aren't a lot of SS's who hit worse than Juan Uribe. Let me start a list;

Orlando Cabrera

Juan Castro

Cristian Guzman

Royce Clayton

Adam Everett

Rafael Furcal

Marco Scutaro

Jack Wilson

 

 

I don't have a problem with Uribe. With him, you have to take the good with the bad. Ozzie needs to realize that when Uribe is going good, he needs to be up higher in the order. However, when he's slumping, it's ok to give him a rest for a few days.

[doUrememberwhen]

I don't have a problem with Uribe.  With him, you have to take the good with the bad.  Ozzie needs to realize that when Uribe is going good, he needs to be up higher in the order.  However, when he's slumping, it's ok to give him a rest for a few days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UMM.....did u see the last few games?

[quickman]

But who is out there, (in-house and on other teams), that we can just magically go, here you go, join our bullpen? (besides Baj)

 

 

I am certain there are plenty of pitchers who can produce better results than 6 era's on teams that will not make it. KW needs to find them, thats his job. And you know what, I think he will. you watch we will get another reliever.

[DBAHO]

I don't have a problem with Uribe.  With him, you have to take the good with the bad.  Ozzie needs to realize that when Uribe is going good, he needs to be up higher in the order.  However, when he's slumping, it's ok to give him a rest for a few days.

His stats are completely diff from last season basically. Last year, great at home, terrible away. This season, terrible at home, great away. Something to consider.

[fathom]

And every other team in the MLB would love to have a great young bullpen like there's believe me. Matt Guerrier and Terry Mulholland (would they even have made our pen at the start of the year?), both have ERA's of above 3.

 

Bullpen ERAs around baseball this year are down (except for some closers). A problem for the Sox is that the Indians and Twins bullpen is much better than ours. That will cost us a lot of wins over the course of the season. We've blown a lot of games in which we were leading going to our bullpen. Entirely way too many so far this season, no matter how good our record is.

[DBAHO]

I am certain there are plenty of pitchers who can produce better results than 6 era's on teams that will not make it. KW needs to find them, thats his job. And you know what, I think he will. you watch we will get another reliever.

But is the cost going to be greater than what we would actually get. I'd hate to see a panic move, from KW to get a lefty reliever, by giving up someone like Sean Tracey.

[fathom]

His stats are completely diff from last season basically. Last year, great at home, terrible away. This season, terrible at home, great away. Something to consider.

 

Swinging for the fence too much at home. With the ball not carrying nearly as well so far this year, he's been hitting a lot of warning track balls. He has also gotten away from driving the ball to right center like he did last year.

[knightni]

Yeah, this was a garbage game.

 

Ozzie kept setting the team up to fail, and they fought against the mismanagement to make the game interesting before it finally did them in.

[soxfan420]

Who's to stop them? He should be shunned from society for a week!

i disagree it was worth getting another look at him imo because shinjo and viz are horrible.

[DBAHO]

Bullpen ERAs around baseball this year are down (except for some closers).  A problem for the Sox is that the Indians and Twins bullpen is much better than ours.  That will cost us a lot of wins over the course of the season.  We've blown a lot of games in which we were leading going to our bullpen.  Entirely way too many so far this season, no matter how good our record is.

Can someone get a record of the games we have lead, before it's gone to the pen. I know it's been bad, but it hasn't been as monumental as say Cleveland's bullpen last season.

 

Would you say last year's pen for us was better or worse than this seasons?

[DBAHO]

Swinging for the fence too much at home.  With the ball not carrying nearly as well so far this year, he's been hitting a lot of warning track balls.  He has also gotten away from driving the ball to right center like he did last year.

Basically the same message as with most of our hitters. I think if anyone's to been to blame for our losses this season so far, I'd put Greg Walker ahead of Ozzie, but they've both been at fault at times this year.

[quickman]

But is the cost going to be greater than what we would actually get. I'd hate to see a panic move, from KW to get a lefty reliever, by giving up someone like Sean Tracey.

 

 

I could care less about the cost. I don't beleive highly in our minor league system, I do not watch a game today to think about two years from now. I watch to win this year. Thats all. next year will come . By the way our minor league system sucks. 1 out of twenty will make it. thats it. Trade the others if it means the playoffs. Sorry if you disagree. they are ALL unproven. This is why KW trades them. He knows they won;t make it it big.

[nvxplorer]

Yes, I think Walker would have been brought in.  Ozzie loves the lefty-lefty match-ups so much, he didn't even bring our closer in on Monday.  BTW, I also agree that you seem to know a good amount of baseball, and just because I disagree with you, it doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion

Thank you. You have my respect as well.

 

I admit that my opinion is pure speculation. Who knows? Ozzie may be a dumb as a rock, but I doubt it. I try to ignore the press conferences and think outside that box. To be honest, I think what is said to the press, by anyone, is mostly bull anyway. No manager is going to divulge his true strategy for all the world to see. The lefty/lefty reason was what was given for bringing up Walker in the first place. That's a valid reason, but that is not the ONLY reason he was called up.

 

Pitcher/batter matchups are as common as foul balls. Every manager does it - all the time. It's not something that makes Ozzie out of the ordinary. He may do it more than some, less than others. You and I certainly aren't qualified to make any comparisons - unless you have a connection with a statistician.

 

I guarantee you, there's a lot more to today's decisions than what we realize. Whether those decisions were wise or foolish is open for debate, but it's much more complex than what we can determine from viewing the game.