Our manager is clueless with the bullpen

[qwerty]

For those who believe we would have a better record if Ozzie wasn't our manager, what a load of BS. Look at our record in 1 run games. Look at the players he forced KW to bring in.

 

Now yes Perez should not have been playing at 1st for Konerkp. But a lot of ppl hav been b****ing lately, "Give Konerko a rest, he can't hit for s***".

 

Alex you say there aren't a lot of SS's who hit worse than Juan Uribe. Let me start a list;

Orlando Cabrera

Juan Castro

Cristian Guzman

Royce Clayton

Adam Everett

Rafael Furcal

Marco Scutaro

Jack Wilson

 

Now a lot of people are also complaining, why wasn't Marte brought in instead of Walker? Do you think it would have been a good move after last night? Everyone is saying, he isn't pitching like the Marte of old, and is getting hit hard. What's to say that wouldn't of happened again, and his confidence would be even more shot?

 

Cliff Politte just isn't used enough. Period.

 

Of course if Walker didn't pitch tonight, more questions would start getting asked. What's the point in having a lefty reliever, if you are not going to use him. At least now, he's off the team, which is what a lot of people wanted in the 1st place.

 

And Jabroni, I ask you this. Do you still think Kevin Walker has the POTENTIAL to be a better pitcher than Neal Cotts? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it. 

 

Marte has been hit hard once in his last two appearances, the rocket double to erstad. Marte did get the double play but it was botched by iguchi. He did walk a run in but the point is he should have never had the chance to walk a run in. Two days ago now he gave up to pop out singles ( both of which should have been caught and there is no way around it). Rowand didn't even need to dive for that ball if he was running full speed ahead and podsednik literally watched the ball bounce in front of him. Marte has pitched well lately considering he is back to popping that fastball at 94-96.

 

Neither politte or marte have been overused contrary to what i keep reading. I don't understand where people are getting that from. Politte has been in 19 games and pitched 20 and a third innings. Marte on the other hand has pitched in 26 games while only recording 19 and two thirds innings pitched. If that is being overworked i don't know what to say.

 

We need a left handed reliever and another right handed reliever if we are serious about this year.

 

If you get the chance flop on aim.

[fathom]

Can someone get a record of the games we have lead, before it's gone to the pen. I know it's been bad, but it hasn't been as monumental as say Cleveland's bullpen last season.

 

 

We have 8 losses so far from our bullpen. That's almost half of our losses.

[DBAHO]

I could care less about the cost. I don't beleive highly in our minor league system, I do not watch a game today to think about two years from now. I watch to win this year. Thats all. next year will come . By the way our minor league system sucks. 1 out of twenty will make it. thats it. Trade the others if it means the playoffs. Sorry if you disagree. they are ALL unproven. This is why KW trades them. He knows they won;t make it it big.

Ok let's go through our minor league stocks here.

Brandon McCarthy - Already made it with the big club.

Brian Anderson - .295/.365/.503 at Charlotte

Ryan Sweeney - .303/.383/.379 at B-Ham

Gio Gonzalez - 4-2, 1.77 ERA, 71 K's, 18 BB's at Kanny (very close to W-S)

Sean Tracey - 6-1, 2.95 ERA, 42 K's, 29 BB's at B-Ham

Ray Liotta - 4-0, 2.45 ERA, 54 K's, 14 BB's at Kanny

Chris Young - .259/.344/.508 at B-Ham

Jerry Owens - .297/.354/.357 at B-Ham

 

I think more than 1 out of 20 are going to make it somehow.

 

To say the minor leagues aren't important is ignorant. How do you think the Minnesota Twins have gone about plugging their holes over the past few seasons?

[DBAHO]

We have 8 losses so far from our bullpen.  That's almost half of our losses.

And the Cubs had what 14 right? How many total wins do the bullpen have so far?

[Flash Tizzle]

I could care less about the cost. I don't beleive highly in our minor league system, I do not watch a game today to think about two years from now. I watch to win this year. Thats all. next year will come . By the way our minor league system sucks. 1 out of twenty will make it. thats it. Trade the others if it means the playoffs. Sorry if you disagree. they are ALL unproven. This is why KW trades them. He knows they won;t make it it big.

 

Aside from McCarthy, whom definetly needs additional velocity on his pitches (or a quality changeup), I'm not confident in any pitching/positional prospect aside from Tracey/Jenks/Andersen. It's disheartening watching Twins plug hole after hole, year after year, when valuable pieces leave. They may be the exception, but we're the team competing with them. So we damn well better step it up and start producing talent.

 

I don't understand how they operate, the Twins, in their drafts. Is their just a pitcher available throwing 95 mph which EVERY team overlooks, yet the Twins seemingly know his potential. And their positional players-- how successful have they been these last few years? Watch when Brian Andersen joins the club in September. He'll probably start on a 1-25 slump, yet he's undeniably our top rated outfielder. We'll be resurrecting the Joe Borchard excuse of "small sample sizes," and "not everyone is successful immediately. (insert name) waited this long..." Meanwhile, a Twins jobber will be up in September batting .500 over 10 games.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[DBAHO]

Aside from McCarthy, whom definetly needs additional velocity on his pitches (or a quality changeup), I'm not confident in any pitching/positional prospect aside from Tracey/Jenks/Andersen. It's disheartening watching Twins plug hole after hole, year after year, when valuable pieces leave. They may be the exception, but we're the team competing with them; so we damn well better step it up and start producing talent.

 

I don't understand how they operate, the Twins, in their drafts. Is their just a pitcher available throwing 95 mph which EVERY team overlooks, yet the Twins seemingly know his potential. And their positional players-- how successful have they been these last few years? Watch when Brian Andersen joins the club in September. He'll probably start on a 1-25 slump, yet he's likely our top rated outfielder. Meanwhile, a Twins jobber will be up in September batting .500 over 10 games.

The Twins had what 3 first round picks at last year's draft? Mainly when their big name players get too expensive, they get the 2 extra picks, and rebuild.

 

And I'd put Gio as our best pitching prospect behind B-Mac easily.

[nvxplorer]

We have 8 losses so far from our bullpen.  That's almost half of our losses.

Yes, the bullpen has definite problems, but they do have 21 saves, leading the AL and second to St. Louis 23. Pretty amazing, actually, considering the poor performances lately.

[nvxplorer]

If the Sox have had problems with minor league talent, it can be attributed to low draft picks after finishing first or second every year but one (I believe) since 1993.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Can someone get a record of the games we have lead, before it's gone to the pen. I know it's been bad, but it hasn't been as monumental as say Cleveland's bullpen last season.

 

even though we've blown some leads, (3 blown saves in 3 days), that's distorted. The craptastic give-outs-away-and-make-every-game-close offense we have puts more pressure on the pen, i.e. smaller leads than almost any other in baseball.

 

YOu can't expect to get 3 innings of shutout ball from your pen every night, and I think that's what a lot of us are expecting around here. Just because you lead 4-3 after 6 innings doesn't make it an automatic win.

 

Here's the win expectancy with a 1-run lead in at the beginning of each inning.

 

6. 65%

7. 68%

8. 73%

9. 82%

 

Now compare that with a 2-run lead.

 

6. 76%

7. 80%

8. 85%

9. 91%

 

It's not so much the bullpen killing us, as the weak ass offense.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I could care less about the cost. I don't beleive highly in our minor league system, I do not watch a game today to think about two years from now. I watch to win this year. Thats all. next year will come . By the way our minor league system sucks. 1 out of twenty will make it. thats it. Trade the others if it means the playoffs. Sorry if you disagree. they are ALL unproven. This is why KW trades them. He knows they won;t make it it big.

most teams would kill for 1 in 20. Baseball is a crapshoot.

[Flash Tizzle]

If the Sox have had problems with minor league talent, it can be attributed to low draft picks after finishing first or second every year but one (I believe) since 1993.

 

I know I'll be ripped for this, but I've always wondered if one bad season; one where we're holding one of the worst records in baseball, would be worth it if it netted our organization a Mark Prior, Ben Sheets, Joe Mauer, or another 'can't miss prospect.' I'm positive Twins fans don't care whether or not their team was terrible in the late 90's, 2000. It brought them a core group of players defending a three time divisional championship.

 

Obviously, holding the best record in baseball far exceeds any notion of selecting a great player in the amateur draft. My question is if you look over our record the last several years, we've lost the division handily. Most notably in 2002. Did it matter to anyone whether or not our club finished over .500, 15 game behind the Twins? And be honest. Moral victories (finishing in second) mean very little, IMO.

 

I'd rather win, let me make that fact clear. And, no, I'm sure Kansas City fans are not happy because of their position in the draft. Looking back in a few years, however, if the next Randy Johnson is drafted by the Royals and they're in contention, their fans won't care too much about these dreadful years.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[Rowand44]

Ya, I'm not going to read this whole thread, I'll just add my thoughts. Ozzie is in love with the damn lefty-lefty bulls*** to damn much. If there's lefties coming up it's automatically a lefty coming in, Neal and Damaso have worked a little lately so he brings in Kevin Walker, why? because he's a damn lefty. Absolutely inexcusable mistake, ozzie definitely cost us the game, horrible, horrible managing today.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Obviously, holding the best record in baseball far exceeds any notion of selecting a great player in the amateur draft. My question is if you look over our record the last several years, we've lost the division handily. Most notably in 2002. Did it matter to anyone whether or not our club finished over .500, 15 game behind the Twins? And be honest. Moral victories (finishing in second) mean very little, IMO.

 

I'd rather win, let me make that fact clear.  And, no, I'm sure Kansas City fans are not happy because of their position in the draft.  Looking back in a few years, however, if the next Randy Johnson is drafted by the Royals and they're in contention, their fans won't care too much about these dreadful years.

 

So here's the conundrum.

 

The Sox need to compete to fill the ballpark,

a terrible season would be Millions in lost revenue,

that would show up the following season in the form of a lower payroll,

which would result in a team much more likely to finish with a piss poor record,

which would gain you multiple years of great draft picks, but...

No Fans.

 

You think the attendence is poor now, just wait for back to back to back 90 loss seasons.

[nvxplorer]

Ya, I'm not going to read this whole thread, I'll just add my thoughts.  Ozzie is in love with the damn lefty-lefty bulls*** to damn much.

Lefty/lefty isn't bulls***. It's an age old tactic used by every manager, all the time.

 

Ozzie isn't in "love" with the pitcher/batter stategy any more than any other manager.

[Rowand44]

Lefty/lefty isn't bulls***. It's an age old tactic used by every manager, all the time.

 

Ozzie isn't in "love" with the pitcher/batter stategy any more than any other manager.

Yes he is, he's in love with the matchup game more then any other manager in baseball. That strategy works sometimes but in a lot of instances it's the wrong thing to do. Just cause a pitcher is left handed doesn't mean he's going to get a left handed hitter out.

[jackie hayes]

Looking back in a few years, however, if the next Randy Johnson is drafted by the Royals and they're in contention, their fans won't care too much about these dreadful years.

B/c the Expos did so well w/ theirs?

 

I don't know if it's such a big deal that we're drafting low. Johnson was a 2nd rounder, after all. Even if you get the first pick, and even if the guy is signable, you can easily end up with Jered Weaver or Kris Benson instead of Mark Prior. Factor in injury, and you can always miss.

 

Then you see Albert Pujols, 13th round, and you just wanna cry.

[Milkman delivers]

Lefty/lefty isn't bulls***. It's an age old tactic used by every manager, all the time.

 

Ozzie isn't in "love" with the pitcher/batter stategy any more than any other manager.

 

He puts in Cotts to face lefties when lefties bat much better against him than righties. He has Everett play against righty pitchers even though his BA against righties is horrendous. Etc.

[nvxplorer]

Yes he is, he's in love with the matchup game more then any other manager in baseball.  That strategy works sometimes but in a lot of instances it's the wrong thing to do.  Just cause a pitcher is left handed doesn't mean he's going to get a left handed hitter out.

On what do you base this assertion?

 

Where I live, I get A's/Giants games, and Alou will use three pitchers in one inning based on the matchups. Dusty Baker does the same thing. How can you say Ozzie does it more than any other manager in baseball? I know you can't be following every game and every team.

[Rowand44]

On what do you base this assertion?

 

Where I live, I get A's/Giants games, and Alou will use three pitchers in one inning based on the matchups. Dusty Baker does the same thing. How can you say Ozzie does it more than any other manager in baseball? I know you can't be following every game and every team.

Ok, good point. I should say he does it more then any other manager I know of, mostly al teams since I see much more al games then nl. He's just ridiculous with the matchup game at time, the lefty-lefty thing is the right thing to do at times but definitely not all the time.

[nvxplorer]

Ok, good point.  I should say he does it more then any other manager I know of, mostly al teams since I see much more al games then nl.  He's just ridiculous with the matchup game at time, the lefty-lefty thing is the right thing to do at times but definitely not all the time.

Yes, Ozzie may seem to overuse the strategy at times, but he's certainly not the only manager to do so. I just think it's unfair to blame every pitfall on Ozzie's use of matchups. I'm sure he does it more than some, and I know he does it less than others (watch Felipe Alou manage a close game if you get a chance). Thanks for clearing it up, though. I've seen this assertion made by many, and it's to the point of becoming cliche, not to mention innaccurate.

[nitetrain8601]

Yes, Ozzie may seem to overuse the strategy at times, but he's certainly not the only manager to do so. I just think it's unfair to blame every pitfall on Ozzie's use of matchups. I'm sure he does it more than some, and I know he does it less than others (watch Felipe Alou manage a close game if you get a chance). Thanks for clearing it up, though. I've seen this assertion made by many, and it's to the point of becoming cliche, not to mention innaccurate.

 

Difference is that Ozzie at least has some people who could get the job done(Hermy, Marte, Politte) and SF and the Cubs have no one and are looking for bullpen guys.

[Flash Tizzle]

So here's the conundrum.

 

The Sox need to compete to fill the ballpark,

a terrible season would be Millions in lost revenue,

that would show up the following season in the form of a lower payroll,

which would result in a team much more likely to finish with a piss poor record,

which would gain you multiple years of great draft picks, but...

No Fans.

 

You think the attendence is poor now, just wait for back to back to back 90 loss seasons.

 

I was thinking about this very concern before I read your reply. Attendence in the late 90's was very poor with a struggling Sox team.

 

/offtopic

 

No shock the Cubs are one of the few exceptions.

 

Prior and Wood, as well as a favorable September schedule, were the main reasons for the Cubs 2003 playoff push. Once in the postseason, both dominated.

 

These two were selected high in the draft due to the horrid Cub teams which preceeded them. If not for Gonzalez' botched grounder, or Prior becoming unglued for one inning, Cub fans could have credited the terrible seasons for both pitchers.

 

The attendance, as we all know, remains high whether or not the team is contending. As a result, the payroll is high, and any reasonable salaries can be used to pay either Prior or Wood as the Tribune sees fit.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[quickman]

Ok let's go through our minor league stocks here.

Brandon McCarthy - Already made it with the big club.

Brian Anderson - .295/.365/.503 at Charlotte

Ryan Sweeney - .303/.383/.379 at B-Ham

Gio Gonzalez - 4-2, 1.77 ERA, 71 K's, 18 BB's at Kanny (very close to W-S)

Sean Tracey - 6-1, 2.95 ERA, 42 K's, 29 BB's at B-Ham

Ray Liotta - 4-0, 2.45 ERA, 54 K's, 14 BB's at Kanny

Chris Young - .259/.344/.508 at B-Ham

Jerry Owens - .297/.354/.357 at B-Ham

 

I think more than 1 out of 20 are going to make it somehow.

 

To say the minor leagues aren't important is ignorant. How do you think the Minnesota Twins have gone about plugging their holes over the past few seasons?

 

 

I dissagree, Look up Munoz stats a few year a go, and honel, and ring, and Almonte, and rauch, and stumm and borchard, and on and on. Just because they have good stats this year means nothing. I can pick out a hell of alot more that don't make it than do make it. My point is, I really do not care if you trade these guys to get me a World series team. Thats the point of playing. Everyone here were chirping about how great all of those mentione above were. For various reasons they won't make it. Most do not make it period. And I cannot beleive you bring up the name of jerry owens. Please.

[quickman]

most teams would kill for 1 in 20. Baseball is a crapshoot.

 

 

thank you , my point exactly

[quickman]

I know I'll be ripped for this, but I've always wondered if one bad season; one where we're holding one of the worst records in baseball, would be worth it if it netted our organization a Mark Prior, Ben Sheets, Joe Mauer, or another 'can't miss prospect.' I'm positive Twins fans don't care whether or not their team was terrible in the late 90's, 2000. It brought them a core group of players defending a three time divisional championship.

 

Obviously, holding the best record in baseball far exceeds any notion of selecting a great player in the amateur draft. My question is if you look over our record the last several years, we've lost the division handily. Most notably in 2002. Did it matter to anyone whether or not our club finished over .500, 15 game behind the Twins? And be honest. Moral victories (finishing in second) mean very little, IMO.

 

I'd rather win, let me make that fact clear.  And, no, I'm sure Kansas City fans are not happy because of their position in the draft.  Looking back in a few years, however, if the next Randy Johnson is drafted by the Royals and they're in contention, their fans won't care too much about these dreadful years.

 

 

 

No because we wouldn't sign the best player because he would have boras as an agent. We would go with a can miss prospect, who would give us a discount because he plays two sports.Most minor leagears are completely worthless as players and should only be used as trading pawns.