Warriors and wusses

[Controlled Chaos]

I hope someone comes home from Iraq and gives this piece of s*** what he's asking for.

 

January 24, 2006

 

Joel Stein:

Warriors and wusses

I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.

 

I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.

 

And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.

 

But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.

 

Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.

 

Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."

 

The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.

 

I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.

 

After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.

 

But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.

 

I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.

 

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

 

And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.

 

I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.

 

I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.

 

Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.

[CanOfCorn]

Wow...I just lost a lot of respect for Joel Stein.

 

What does he expect the troops to do? Lay down their weapons and surrender? Get shot? Walk through the desert and/or mountains to Turkey for a safe haven?

NOw I'm all for being out of Iraq, but this guy is out of his gourd. I mean, c'mon, a lot of those people joined to have their college paid for...a lot of those people joined to get out of bad situations at home. It seems he portrays them as blood thirsty, kool-aid drinking mongrels.

 

I think someone needs to be embedded in Iraq for a couple of years to truly see what the troops have to deal with.

[Middle Buffalo]

I can't say that I'm a big fan of the war, but this guy is a total a**hole. People who put themselves in harms way for your freedom should ALWAYS be celebrated.

[jasonxctf]

to play devils advocate, how are these soldiers protecting my freedom again?

[Wong & Owens]

People who put themselves in harms way for your freedom should ALWAYS be celebrated.

 

Not agreeing with Stein's article, but my freedom was at no point at risk due to any Iraqi invasion.

[Middle Buffalo]

to play devils advocate, how are these soldiers protecting my freedom again?

By serving your country in the armed forces.

[Middle Buffalo]

Not agreeing with Stein's article, but my freedom was at no point at risk due to any Iraqi invasion.

I agree, that's why I don't support the war in Iraq. The people who are serving in the military are following orders, though, and it's silly to think that they can just walk away from their posts.

[jasonxctf]

By serving your country in the armed forces.

 

 

so who are they protecting my freedom from? who is attacking my freedom? (a question that may open more domestic issues now than foreign)

[southsideirish71]

Well Mr Stein should go back to working for Martha Stewart instead of writing a trash piece like this.

[Rex Kickass]

I think soldiers ought to be celebrated. They do the country's dirty work and do it for pretty low pay. Even if we disagree with the policy, it makes no sense to denigrate the people charged with carrying the policy out no matter how they feel about it.

[Middle Buffalo]

so who are they protecting my freedom from? who is attacking my freedom? (a question that may open more domestic issues now than foreign)

I think we'll go around in circles if we argue this point because I'm not really sure we disagree with each other. I disagree with Stein's stance against our military. I think that our freedom is the result of all of our military past and present. That should be celebrated.

 

As for who is attacking your freedom - how about GWB.

[CanOfCorn]

Remember, you can walk away from your job at any time without repercussions, people in the armed forces can get tossed in jail if they do.

 

They are following orders. They are representing you whether you like it or not. They are still Americans, just like you. They still wear the flag on their sleeve.

 

Don't kill the messenger (so to speak). And that's what Stein is doing here.

[southsideirish71]

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

 

Actually what this dolt forgets is that a lot of people joined the military after some group slammed planes into buildings killing innocent people who were not part of the war machine, but were just going to work and such. I am sure he bought his flag and acted like a patriot because it was the cool thing to do. Now of course being anti war is the cool thing. Being antiwar is one thing, being anti solider is another. Before they went to Iraq our warriors went to the country that supported this terror, toppled those who aided and assisted this attack and then sent Osama into hiding. You can question the government, that is your right as a democracy. But for those who question the brave men and women who protect this country, I can only say that you look foolish and stupid. Just as the so called peace activists who spit at our soliders who came home from Vietnam. What a disgrace. This article makes good toliet paper and that is about it. This article is a disgrace to those who have payed the ultimate price in that name of our country.

[Middle Buffalo]

This article makes good toliet paper and that is about it. 

It doesn't. I tried. Chaffed a little.

[Balta1701]

It doesn't.  I tried.  Chaffed a little.

So do you get the LAT delivered in Arizona, or did you just use your computer?

[mr_genius]

i read this article a couple days ago and came to the conclusion that the author is a total doucebag.

 

he's probably gettin out his "you're a murderer!" protest signs for when troops arrive home from service.

[Middle Buffalo]

So do you get the LAT delivered in Arizona, or did you just use your computer?

I just rubbed against the monitor.

[sox4lifeinPA]

so who are they protecting my freedom from? who is attacking my freedom? (a question that may open more domestic issues now than foreign)

 

 

I think this is a really funny stance. Personally, I'm happy to live in ignorance of what's out there trying to take away my freedoms...but GUARANTEED there are elements out there trying to destroy what we have.

 

but all of you knew that 9/11 was going to happen :rolly

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

so who are they protecting my freedom from? who is attacking my freedom? (a question that may open more domestic issues now than foreign)

 

 

Who is attacking your freedom? You must have slept in on 9-11.

 

 

:rolly

 

 

 

Whenever this country has needed its Armed Forces a bunch of guys with US Army, US Marines, US Air Force, US Navy and US Coast Guard showed up and did the job. You may not think we do a whole lot with our time in that small little world you live in but if you'd open up your eyes and look around you you'd realize that we do a whole hell of a lot to keep this nation safe.

[Middle Buffalo]

Whenever this country has needed its Armed Forces a bunch of guys with US Army, US Marines,  US Air Force, US Navy and US Coast Guard  showed up and did the job.  You may not think we do a whole lot with our time in that small little world you live in but if you'd open up your eyes and look around you you'd realize that we do a whole hell of a lot to keep this nation safe.

Why all this hanging out in Germany?

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

Wins and intangibles are all that matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Steve Bartman's my idol]

It is possible to "Love the warriors, and hate the war!".

[LowerCaseRepublican]

But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.

 

Actually what this dolt forgets is that a lot of people joined the military after some group slammed planes into buildings killing innocent people who were not part of the war machine, but were just going to work and such. I am sure he bought his flag and acted like a patriot because it was the cool thing to do. Now of course being anti war is the cool thing. Being antiwar is one thing, being anti solider is another. Before they went to Iraq our warriors went to the country that supported this terror, toppled those who aided and assisted this attack and then sent Osama into hiding. You can question the government, that is your right as a democracy. But for those who question the brave men and women who protect this country, I can only say that you look foolish and stupid. Just as the so called peace activists who spit at our soliders who came home from Vietnam. What a disgrace. This article makes good toliet paper and that is about it. This article is a disgrace to those who have payed the ultimate price in that name of our country.

When soldiers force Iraqis to jump off a bridge to their death, I can question them. When Gen. Taguba's report talks about "widespread" (his word) torture and abuse going on at US run facilities in Iraq, I can question them.

 

When people propel fake myths about spit upon Vietnam soldiers, that makes a person look foolish. Jerry Lembcke, an associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam combat veteran, has written a well documented book, "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam" (New York University Press, 1998) that thoroughly debunks the tales of protesters "spitting upon" Vietnam vets. Lembcke conducted extensive research to ascertain that there were no contemporaneous news reports or police complaints lodged to substantiate the claims that began appearing in the media about 1991. The perpetuation of such myths only blocks the healing of Vietnam veterans from our "culture of victimization," and it serves the agenda of those pro-war forces who place fear and intimidation in the path of open debate on the pressing issues of the moment.

 

What is a disgrace to those who have paid the ultimate price for our country is that our leaders (both the Republican architects of the plans and the warhawk complicit Democrats) sent soldiers into a country that did not threaten us, did not attack us and did not have any of the weapons of mass destruction that we said they did. In fact, damn near every reason that the Administration has given us has been debunked (chem weapons, nukes, WMD, etc.) It is only a further slap in the face that they sent them in without having any post-war plans set up -- not to mention the lack of body armor, etc.

 

Somehow all that seems to sting a bit more than some guy's column in the LA Times. But then again, I guess it is chic to bash the so-called liberal media.

[sox4lifeinPA]

LCR, what are you going to teach again?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

When soldiers force Iraqis to jump off a bridge to their death, I can question them.  When Gen. Taguba's report talks about "widespread" (his word) torture and abuse going on at US run facilities in Iraq, I can question them.

 

When people propel fake myths about spit upon Vietnam soldiers, that makes a person look foolish.  Jerry Lembcke, an associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam combat veteran, has written a well documented book, "The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam" (New York University Press, 1998) that thoroughly debunks the tales of protesters "spitting upon" Vietnam vets. Lembcke conducted extensive research to ascertain that there were no contemporaneous news reports or police complaints lodged to substantiate the claims that began appearing in the media about 1991. The perpetuation of such myths only blocks the healing of Vietnam veterans from our "culture of victimization," and it serves the agenda of those pro-war forces who place fear and intimidation in the path of open debate on the pressing issues of the moment.

 

What is a disgrace to those who have paid the ultimate price for our country is that our leaders (both the Republican architects of the plans and the warhawk complicit Democrats) sent soldiers into a country that did not threaten us, did not attack us and did not have any of the weapons of mass destruction that we said they did.  In fact, damn near every reason that the Administration has given us has been debunked (chem weapons, nukes, WMD, etc.)  It is only a further slap in the face that they sent them in without having any post-war plans set up -- not to mention the lack of body armor, etc.

 

Somehow all that seems to sting a bit more than some guy's column in the LA Times.  But then again, I guess it is chic to bash the so-called liberal media.

 

 

Ive told you before and I'll tell you again. The pseudo-support you leftists offer the military is not welcome.

 

Your assertion that soldiers were not spat upon is debateable at best, especially considering your sources, but one thing that is not debateable is that America completely failed to support the men and women in uniform who fought there. It was people just like YOU who poured salt in the physical and emotional wounds caused by the war. Your source, Mr Lembecke, is laughable at best. Lembcke is a s***bag with an agenda that makes him not as dilligent in pursuing things that hurts his agenda. Lembcke was a member of Vietnam Vets Against the War, a radical anti-war group, and it's obvious to the reasonable observer that such a man, who in his spare time joined in chorus with John Kerry in calling US soldiers rapists and murderers, would paint his fellow leftist, hippie pieces of s*** in a more positive light than they should be. I guess you freely assumed nobody would check this guys background out huh?

 

 

You leftists just love to whine and cry about troops not having body armor but you convieniently leave out the fact that literally thousands of troops who would have died in previous wars are alive thanks to the armor they went to war with. Additionally I laughed like hell when you posted that story about the side plate armor that hasn't been issued yet. Many US soldiers, myself included, have made it clear that too much body armor denies them mobility and makes them more likely to be hurt or killed. Recall your ECON 101 about the law of diminishing returns........it applies here also.

 

There is indeed a great disgrace here and thats how leftists like you hide behind dead soldiers to take cheapshots at the President. The people aren't buying it, however, and thats why you continue to lose election after election.

Edited January 27, 2006 by NUKE_CLEVELAND