Depth

[ptatc]

Actually, a right handed hitting outfielder who can play LF is very important. Some might consider Ozuna passable in LF....I don't. I love his hustle and what he brings to the team on offense, but his defense is mediocre. Just like having a strong back-up righty catcher, it's very important in our division to have someone we can play in LF against the likes of C.C., Johan, etc. We need all the help we can get on offense vs tough LHP. I love how people like to say it's minute details, but it's those tiny details which really hurt us last year (lack of back-up CF, terrible back-up catcher, no long relief).

 

I continue to disagree. We were hurt by poor pitching. If MB and the rest of the pitchers all have don't have subpar years, we win. The same thing applies this year. The only reason those handful of games we lost last year due to poor right handed back ups make a difference is because the pitchers blew so many other games.

 

If the pitching does well we win, if the pitching dalters all of the good right handed backups won't do us any good.

 

I know we continue to disagree on this and have different philosophies on how to win but that's the way it goes.

[RockRaines]

Actually, a right handed hitting outfielder who can play LF is very important. Some might consider Ozuna passable in LF....I don't. I love his hustle and what he brings to the team on offense, but his defense is mediocre. Just like having a strong back-up righty catcher, it's very important in our division to have someone we can play in LF against the likes of C.C., Johan, etc. We need all the help we can get on offense vs tough LHP. I love how people like to say it's minute details, but it's those tiny details which really hurt us last year (lack of back-up CF, terrible back-up catcher, no long relief). There were numerous games where are pathetic back-up outfielders (as well as our disgraceful starting LF) added about 3 or 4 more earned runs to our starting pitcher due to not making a routine play or making a bone-headed decision. It seems like Garland really suffered from terrible defense the first few months of the season.

I would say the pitching rotation posting bottom of the league ERA's after the all star break was alot more important than the 3rd bat off the bench. But, maybe you could win 1-5 more games with your reasons above, then again, maybe not.

[fathom]

I would say the pitching rotation posting bottom of the league ERA's after the all star break was alot more important than the 3rd bat off the bench. But, maybe you could win 1-5 more games with your reasons above, then again, maybe not.

 

I'm not saying that adding a right handed hitting back-up outfielder would lead to 20 more wins. Like you mentioned, it could add about 3-5 more wins, which makes a huge difference in our division. One of the biggest thing our team needs to learn is how to even put up a decent effort against Rogers, Santana and Sabathia. We lost to them about 85 pct of the time last year, and even though those guys are great pitchers, it puts us at a serious disadvantage when we face those teams. I still think that a competent left fielder would help our pitchers out a lot, as well as having a right fielder that charged the ball more efficiently in order to stop teams from going first to third or second to home on every ball hit into the outfield. I love Jermaine Dye....but I think he's thrown out one guy at third or home since he's been with the White Sox.

[Gregory Pratt]

It seems like Garland really suffered from terrible defense the first few months of the season.

 

It's hard to defend balls that aren't in the yard anymore. 'Cause I seem to remember Garland giving up about twenty homeruns by the AS break.

 

I remember several pitchers suffering from poor, poor defense at certain points.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 31, 2007 -> 02:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Mackowiak's case, that is only because the pitchers were on the mound more than he was in CF. Put him in CF for 162 games, and based on his performance last year, we lose more games because of Mack in CF than because of the pitching.

B.S.

 

Simple as that.

[Balta1701]

B.S.

 

Simple as that.

Hey, I'm calling that one the way I see it. By my eyes when Rob Mackowiak was playing CF, in an overwhelming majority of those games he directly cost the White Sox 1 run, and indirectly usually led to at least a couple more scoring. In other words, in any game, the White Sox still had say a 50% shot at a quality start last season, but in a much higher percentage of games where he started in CF, Rob Mackowiak's defense in CF did horrific damage.

[Pants Rowland]

Hey, I'm calling that one the way I see it. By my eyes when Rob Mackowiak was playing CF, in an overwhelming majority of those games he directly cost the White Sox 1 run, and indirectly usually led to at least a couple more scoring. In other words, in any game, the White Sox still had say a 50% shot at a quality start last season, but in a much higher percentage of games where he started in CF, Rob Mackowiak's defense in CF did horrific damage.

 

Game 3 Cubs at Sox - Mack misplays ball off Barret's bat leading to RBI triple followed shortly thereafter by Jacque Jones 2 run homer. Cubs avoid sweep. There are more but I was there for that and was well-positioned to see how Mack's poor read/jump/dive/tumble directly cost the Sox the game but the bullpen got hit with the Earned runs and loss. He easily cost the Sox 2 to 4 games last year. Everyone keeps blaming the starters for the 2006 disappointment but the outfield defense took a toll on the pitch counts throughout the year.

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 31, 2007 -> 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, I'm calling that one the way I see it. By my eyes when Rob Mackowiak was playing CF, in an overwhelming majority of those games he directly cost the White Sox 1 run, and indirectly usually led to at least a couple more scoring. In other words, in any game, the White Sox still had say a 50% shot at a quality start last season, but in a much higher percentage of games where he started in CF, Rob Mackowiak's defense in CF did horrific damage.

The Sox were 26-23 with Mack starting in CF. EDIT: Forgot to take out games where he started in LF or at 3B.

Here are the scores of the games Mack started in.

 

2_8

5_3

4_2

4_0

9_2

6_5

6_5

4_1

4_5

4_8

5_2

6_1

4_7

9_3

3_2

2_3

7_5

0_5

8_12

8_6

2_6

0_8

8_1

13_5

1_0

7_4

6_5

9_10

4_2

11_15

4_2

6_9

4_6

2_5

5_0

4_7

7_8

6_4

6_5

4_10

4_1

1_7

7_5

4_5

7_8

5_7

3_2

3_4

2_4

 

There are only four games where the Sox lost by one run, and how is Mack fully responsible if the pitcher continues to get rocked? Next thing you know people will be blaming him for Jacque Jones', who can't hit LHP to save his life, homer off of Neal Cotts.

QUOTE(Beltin @ Jan 31, 2007 -> 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Game 3 Cubs at Sox - Mack misplays ball off Barret's bat leading to RBI triple followed shortly thereafter by Jacque Jones 2 run homer. Cubs avoid sweep. There are more but I was there for that and was well-positioned to see how Mack's poor read/jump/dive/tumble directly cost the Sox the game but the bullpen got hit with the Earned runs and loss. He easily cost the Sox 2 to 4 games last year. Everyone keeps blaming the starters for the 2006 disappointment but the outfield defense took a toll on the pitch counts throughout the year.

Hey what do you know.

 

Mackowiak's bat won us a game against Huston Street and the A's.

Edited February 1, 2007 by santo=dorf

[RockRaines]

I love Jermaine Dye....but I think he's thrown out one guy at third or home since he's been with the White Sox.

His presence alone makes them run less. I cant recall anyone really testing his arm.

[fathom]

His presence alone makes them run less. I cant recall anyone really testing his arm.

 

I have to disagree with this. Teams were challenging Dye at every chance they got last year. His arm is strong, it's just he doesn't charge the ball at all.

[Vance Law]

Actually, a right handed hitting outfielder who can play LF is very important.

 

Important is a relative term.

How important is a backup right handed outfielder to a team's success.

Where does it rank on a list of, say, the 50 most important things for a baseball team.?

If it ranks 50th, is it really "important"?

 

The Sox do have a backup right-handed left fielder in Ozuna. If your claim is that the sum of his abilities, offensive and defensive, is somehow inferior to the typical backup right-handed outfielder, how much?

 

I would claim that the difference between the league average backup right handed outfielder and Ozuna (that is their net effects on the baseball games over the course of the season) is insanely insignificant.

 

 

Important stuff list

-

#49 Mai Tai guy's booze hose working properly

#50 getting a better backup right-handed outfielder than Ozuna

Edited February 1, 2007 by Vance Law

[GoodAsGould]

I have to disagree with this. Teams were challenging Dye at every chance they got last year. His arm is strong, it's just he doesn't charge the ball at all.

 

you must of been watching a different sox than than the rest of us.

[fathom]

you must of been watching a different sox than than the rest of us.

 

Nope, I'm pretty confident of my observation regarding Dye in the outfield. Dye had an amazing year with the bat last season, but his defense was mediocre. Mediocre isn't bad when you compare it to the horses*** we have in LF.

Edited February 1, 2007 by fathom

[qwerty]

Nope, I'm pretty confident of my observation regarding Dye in the outfield. Dye had an amazing year with the bat last season, but his defense was mediocre. Mediocre isn't bad when you compare it to the horses*** we have in LF.

 

Dye is nothing out there defensively compared to before his leg was shattered... which is very understandable.

Last year dye's arm was more accurate than in 2005. The 2005 season dye would over throw the cut off man almost daily. I agree with you about his lack of charging the ball... he basically will wait until the ball rolls to his glove. Personally i don't believe teams are very scared of running on dye... if anything it should be seen as an oppurtunity.

[DBAHO]

Dye's defense has slipped a bit no doubt, but it's not like he's below average as a RF compared to others in the league.

 

I mean look at a guy like Vlad Guerrero who has a hell of an arm, but can overthrow to the cutoff man or to third base quite occasionally. He's got the skills, but is quite wild, if you will.

 

At least compared to Podsednik, Dye looks like a godsend out in the OF.

 

But with less Mackowiak, and hopefully more non Pods alternatives in LF, the OF defense will be improved in 07, which will help us win an extra game or 2, which could be crucial in this division when it's all said and done.

[NorthSideSox72]

Nope, I'm pretty confident of my observation regarding Dye in the outfield. Dye had an amazing year with the bat last season, but his defense was mediocre. Mediocre isn't bad when you compare it to the horses*** we have in LF.

 

Dye is nothing out there defensively compared to before his leg was shattered... which is very understandable.

Last year dye's arm was more accurate than in 2005. The 2005 season dye would over throw the cut off man almost daily. I agree with you about his lack of charging the ball... he basically will wait until the ball rolls to his glove. Personally i don't believe teams are very scared of running on dye... if anything it should be seen as an oppurtunity.

 

I agree with both of you, he isn't agressive towards the ball. But regarding his arm, I wanted to point out the play last year where he got to a soft single along the right field line, slipped to one knee in the wet grass, saw the guy going for 2, and gunned him down with a sidearm/submarine throw from one knee (or just getting off that knee, not sure).

 

His arm is still above average in strength and accuracy. He's just lost some speed and footing.

[Pants Rowland]

Hey what do you know. Mackowiak's bat won us a game against Huston Street and the A's.

 

I would hope to have a little more production out of my backup than one heroic pinch hit moment. I think we all fell in love with Mack when he beat Hawkins and the Cubs in a double header two years ago. That and the fact that he is a local guy with a passion for the Sox gave him a free pass last year. Overall, he was pretty disappointing both offensively and defensively.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Beltin'Bill

[Balta1701]

His arm is still above average in strength and accuracy. He's just lost some speed and footing.

The other side of the token with Dye is that there is an easy solution to the worries about him having lost a few steps in the outfield; put a freaking track star in Center Field who can cover a lot of space into the Right-Center gap. That way, Dye can cheat towards the line, and make up for some of the issues that come with age and injury.

 

Oh, if only we had a guy who could play a dynamite Center Field defense and cover an enormous amount of ground. Quick, get Mackowiak some steroids.

 

There are only four games where the Sox lost by one run, and how is Mack fully responsible if the pitcher continues to get rocked? Next thing you know people will be blaming him for Jacque Jones', who can't hit LHP to save his life, homer off of Neal Cotts.

 

Hey what do you know.

 

Mackowiak's bat won us a game against Huston Street and the A's.

I understand your point, but its still not what my eyes told me repeatedly last year. In a lot of those games that were lost by more than 1 run, there was always some sort of defining moment, like a 6th inning Vazquez collapse for example, that would wind up really hurting the team, and Mack would invariably be directly involved in that. I guess that it looks like the numbers just don't back me up on this one, but my eyes say that simply playing Anderson 155+ games in CF last year turns the White Sox into a playoff team solely because of his defense.

[Vance Law]

I would hope to have a little more production out of my backup than one heroic pinch hit moment. I think we all fell in love with Mack when he beat Hawkins and the Cubs in a double header two years ago. That and the fact that he is a local guy with a passion for the Sox gave him a free pass last year. Overall, he was pretty disappointing both offensively and defensively.

 

This is one of the more bizarre comments that I've seen. You must be joking, lying, willfully ignoring the facts, and or basing your comment on one game that you saw. Mackowiak was a better hitter than the majority of our regulars. He hit .295 with a .365 OBP. Those numbers are better than Iguchi, Crede, Pierzynski, Pods, Anderson, and Uribe.

[Pants Rowland]

This is one of the more bizarre comments that I've seen. You must be joking, lying, willfully ignoring the facts, and or basing your comment on one game that you saw. Mackowiak was a better hitter than the majority of our regulars. He hit .295 with a .365 OBP. Those numbers are better than Iguchi, Crede, Pierzynski, Pods, Anderson, and Uribe.

 

Maybe I am being harsh but I recall a very streaky hitter whose defense was tough to watch. My example was from a game I attended in which Mack was brought in to pinch hit, did not deliver, and then cost the Sox the game in the late innings. My seats are very close to the area the play happened and he was brutal on multiple levels. Granted, he should not have been out there to begin with, but it was one of several examples last year when a combination of Pods in Left and Mack in Center put extra pressure on the man on the bump.

 

Maybe Mack's defensive shortcomings were exacerbated by being out of position and being next to Pods most of the time. Whatever the reason, I am not blaming him, just stating how I feel. Stats can be misleading sometimes. Mack may have decent looking numbers on paper, but there are a lot of fans who watched a whole slew of games last year and can not recall much contribution from Mack outside of his performance against Street.

 

Tell me what your stats say about Joe Crede's 2005 regular season? On paper he had some disappointing numbers but we all remember his clutch offensive contributions that year, not to mention the fact that his defense more than made up for his offensive shortcomings.

 

I know Mack is a reserve, but his defense and streaky hitting stick out far more in my mind. Further, better numbers than 2006 versions of Pods, Anderson, and Uribe is comparable to being the World's Tallest Midget.

[nitetrain8601]

Reason why Erstad is a waste and shouldn't be considered for anything other than minor league assignment is summed up perfectly by Nate Silver. Not because of the money so much, but the opportunity cost of playing time for Ryan Sweeney, Brian Anderson and Josh Fields is too much. As Silver says, we're better off giving an opportunity to these guys and see if they fail or not than giving an aging veteran who just doesn't have it anymore anymore PT.

 

Here are the PECOTA projected EqAs for some plausible candidates for LF and CF playing time this season in Chicago.

 

Josh Fields .272

Brian Anderson .267

Ryan Sweeney .265

Luis Terrero .261

Rob Mackowiak .259

Scott Podsednik .256

Jerry Owens .246

Pablo Ozuna .234

Darin Erstad .225

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=164

[hammerhead johnson]

Maybe I am being harsh but I recall a very streaky hitter whose defense was tough to watch. My example was from a game I attended in which Mack was brought in to pinch hit, did not deliver, and then cost the Sox the game in the late innings. My seats are very close to the area the play happened and he was brutal on multiple levels. Granted, he should not have been out there to begin with, but it was one of several examples last year when a combination of Pods in Left and Mack in Center put extra pressure on the man on the bump.

 

Maybe Mack's defensive shortcomings were exacerbated by being out of position and being next to Pods most of the time. Whatever the reason, I am not blaming him, just stating how I feel. Stats can be misleading sometimes. Mack may have decent looking numbers on paper, but there are a lot of fans who watched a whole slew of games last year and can not recall much contribution from Mack outside of his performance against Street.

 

Tell me what your stats say about Joe Crede's 2005 regular season? On paper he had some disappointing numbers but we all remember his clutch offensive contributions that year, not to mention the fact that his defense more than made up for his offensive shortcomings.

 

I know Mack is a reserve, but his defense and streaky hitting stick out far more in my mind. Further, better numbers than 2006 versions of Pods, Anderson, and Uribe is comparable to being the World's Tallest Midget.

 

You tried your hardest. I'll give you that.

 

However, I do believe that Vance Law owns you.

[Balta1701]

Reason why Erstad is a waste and shouldn't be considered for anything other than minor league assignment is summed up perfectly by Nate Silver. Not because of the money so much, but the opportunity cost of playing time for Ryan Sweeney, Brian Anderson and Josh Fields is too much. As Silver says, we're better off giving an opportunity to these guys and see if they fail or not than giving an aging veteran who just doesn't have it anymore anymore PT.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=164

So, 1 question...you're citing a statistic which says that Luis Terrero would be a better outfield performer than Mackowiak, Podsednik, Owens, or Ozuna. So in other words, why should I trust it?

[DBAHO]

So, 1 question...you're citing a statistic which says that Luis Terrero would be a better outfield performer than Mackowiak, Podsednik, Owens, or Ozuna. So in other words, why should I trust it?

And Josh Fields hitting .272 would be wishful thinking I would have thought.

[nitetrain8601]

So, 1 question...you're citing a statistic which says that Luis Terrero would be a better outfield performer than Mackowiak, Podsednik, Owens, or Ozuna. So in other words, why should I trust it?

 

Scott Podsednik was the most worthless hitter last year in baseball. You don't remember seeing that list? Yes, I would take that source because the person who wrote that studies baseball, does mathematical research and forms his opinion based off that.