I don't think Lieberman is that stupid. Regardless of what happens on the Presidential level, odds are a stronger Dem majority in the Senate. That kind of betrayal would wind up with a Lieberman stripped of all seniority.

I'd love to see more guys like Lieberman who have the freedom and courage to support either party at times. Imagine if more did cross the aisles based on issues, not labels.

 

I'm dreaming, I know.

Could you please tell me exactly what McCain stands for that is so untypically Republican?

But here's the one other thing to keep in mind. In 2004, against an admittedly weak Democratic candidate who it seemed no one in the party really was fired up to vote for (he wasn't Bush and that was his best trait) Karl Rove still had to turn out an extra 1 million or so evangelical voters just to eek out a victory against Mr. Kerry.

 

Since then, the Democrats have seemingly become much, much more motivated (Hell, they had a record primary turnout last night in Florida with no one really campaigning there!) and it seems that at least a good chunk of the party is excited by the 2 remaining candidates.

 

If the extra voters who appeared in 04 to help push Bush over the top aren't as motivated this time around, then that could doom McCain from the start.

I know that I heard that a large reason for the huge Florida turnout was a number of referendums that were on the ballots.

I'd love to see more guys like Lieberman who have the freedom and courage to support either party at times. Imagine if more did cross the aisles based on issues, not labels.

 

I'm dreaming, I know.

So Tex, do you feel that Mr. Lieberman and Mr. McCain are right about the Iraq war and the Iran war they'd like, that Mr. Bush's problem is that he hasn't been militaristic enough?

 

I'm not sure how much value I place in the willingness to reach across party lines like you describe...but I do think it's worth while to judge people based on which issues they reach across party lines on. And Joe Lieberman reaches across party lines in that he wants to invade people like a Republican. Do you think that's a positive trait, wanting to invade Iran right now?

Yup.

 

And Hillary received more votes than any other candidate.

But here's the one other thing to keep in mind. In 2004, against an admittedly weak Democratic candidate who it seemed no one in the party really was fired up to vote for (he wasn't Bush and that was his best trait) Karl Rove still had to turn out an extra 1 million or so evangelical voters just to eek out a victory against Mr. Kerry.

 

Since then, the Democrats have seemingly become much, much more motivated (Hell, they had a record primary turnout last night in Florida with no one really campaigning there!) and it seems that at least a good chunk of the party is excited by the 2 remaining candidates.

 

If the extra voters who appeared in 04 to help push Bush over the top aren't as motivated this time around, then that could doom McCain from the start.

 

If Obama wins the nomination, maybe. And yes, I'm including, but not limiting this to the race card. But Hillary sends the moderates to McCain.

If Obama wins the nomination, maybe. And yes, I'm including, but not limiting this to the race card. But Hillary sends the moderates to McCain.

In 2004, Kerry won the independent/moderate vote by quite a bit IIRC, but it wound up being Rove's base turnout strategy that won the day.

In 2004, Kerry won the independent/moderate vote by quite a bit IIRC, but it wound up being Rove's base turnout strategy that won the day.

 

I don't see anything in this statement that is relevent today. 2004, Kerry, Rove. Not being critical at all, but it's a different ballgame.

Could you please tell me exactly what McCain stands for that is so untypically Republican?

He's got a better environmental record than the rest of them. He's more clearly and definitely anti-torture. He's been willing to write bills with and work with members of the other party in the Senate. He's against a constitutional ban on gay marriage. He's more moderate on immigration. He made an attempt, albeit a failed one, to reform campaign finance. Those are some of the big ones.

 

He's got a better environmental record than the rest of them. He's more clearly and definitely anti-torture. He's been willing to write bills with and work with members of the other party in the Senate. He's against a constitutional ban on gay marriage. He's more moderate on immigration. He made an attempt, albeit a failed one, to reform campaign finance. Those are some of the big ones.

I'd just like to point out...how in the world did we get to an era where being anti-torture was a position held by 1 party and not the other? Sorry to interject, just had to.

I'd just like to point out...how in the world did we get to an era where being anti-torture was a position held by 1 party and not the other? Sorry to interject, just had to.

 

3000 dead American's can change people's minds about how to treat people trying to kill us.

I'd just like to point out...how in the world did we get to an era where being anti-torture was a position held by 1 party and not the other? Sorry to interject, just had to.

 

Just some of those feathers on the tip of the wing.

3000 dead American's can change people's minds about how to treat people trying to kill us.

 

And our freedom of speech

And our freedom of religion

And our freedom from illegal search and seizure

etc.

 

And Balta, you are correct. Crossing for the wrong reasons is not a good thing. But not crossing because of some party pressure is not good either.

And our freedom of speech

And our freedom of religion

And our freedom from illegal search and seizure

etc.

 

And Balta, you are correct. Crossing for the wrong reasons is not a good thing. But not crossing because of some party pressure is not good either.

 

Freedom of speech. Reminds me of something that happened here last week. Mitch McConnell made an appearance near me (in Paducah) in a small movie theater. As he came out of the theater, he was approached by the theater manager and her daughter (about 12 years old I think) with mom carrying a videocam. She asked McConnell if he'd talk to her about the Iraq war. He brushed her off. The daughter went ballistic! Screeching something at him, I couldn't understand her. He, or someone in his party said, "That'll be enough of that". Now, I know I used quotes but it may not be exact. The kid cameback with "Whatcha going to do about it?"

 

The next day, the lady was fired from her job. Now she is applying for a new job, Representative from the KY 1st District in the US House of Representatives.

 

I have heard the video made you tube. Her name is Heather Ryan, so a Heather Ryan, Mitch McConnell search my find it. I don't know. However, a citizen should absolutely have the right to question an elected official without fear of losing their job. The kid was way out of line, but the kid is a kid. Ryan said on local radio that McConnell demanded she be fired. That ain't right. I hope she sues.

Edited January 30, 200818 yr by YASNY

Freedom of speech. Reminds me of something that happened here last week. Mitch McConnell made an appearance near me (in Paducah) in a small movie theater. As he came out of the theater, he was approached by the theater manager and her daughter (about 12 years old I think) with mom carrying a videocam. She asked McConnell if he'd talk to her about the Iraq war. He brushed her off. The daughter went ballistic! Screeching something at him, I couldn't understand her. He, or someone in his party said, "That'll be enough of that". Now, I know I used quotes but it may not be exact. The kid cameback with "Whatcha going to do about it?"

 

The next day, the lady was fired from her job. Now she is applying for a new job, Representative from the KY 1st District in the US House of Representatives.

 

I have heard the video made you tube. Her name is Heather Ryan, so a Heather Ryan, Mitch McConnell search my find it. I don't know. However, a citizen should absolutely have the right to question an elected official without fear of losing their job. The kid was way out of line, but the kid is a kid. Ryan said on local radio that McConnell demanded she be fired. That ain't right. I hope she sues.

 

In exactly how many jobs could you accost someone and not expect to lose your job?

In exactly how many jobs could you accost someone and not expect to lose your job?

 

She, from what I understand, didn't accost him. She, as citizen of the US and the commonwealth of KY, asked to speak to and question of one of her elected representatives. And to clarify the situation, Ryan wasn't 'on the job'. She was on the street as a citizen. I'll grant the bratty ass kid was way out of line, but still, no politician to have to power to demand someone be fired for questioning them.

McCain needs a good old fashioned bible thumper to be his running mate. He needs someone to pacify the religious right who hate him.

 

Huckabee! Huckabee! Huckabee!

She, from what I understand, didn't accost him. She, as citizen of the US and the commonwealth of KY, asked to speak to and question of one of her elected representatives. And to clarify the situation, Ryan wasn't 'on the job'. She was on the street as a citizen. I'll grant the bratty ass kid was way out of line, but still, no politician to have to power to demand someone be fired for questioning them.

he was approached by the theater manager and her daughter

 

I'm wondering if she used her position as the Theater Manager to gain access? Since it was at the theater, or am I misreading those statements?

I'm wondering if she used her position as the Theater Manager to gain access? Since it was at the theater, or am I misreading those statements?

I honestly don't know. She may have had insider information as to his schedule or something. And, let me make this clear, I have not seen the video. I'm just going on what I have heard on local coverage as to what has happened, and am trying to give an as honest portrayal of the situation as I can.

And I'm just seeing highlights and as we all know, there is always more to the story, it is never perfectly clear.

She, from what I understand, didn't accost him. She, as citizen of the US and the commonwealth of KY, asked to speak to and question of one of her elected representatives. And to clarify the situation, Ryan wasn't 'on the job'. She was on the street as a citizen. I'll grant the bratty ass kid was way out of line, but still, no politician to have to power to demand someone be fired for questioning them.

 

She was at her place of employment, stuck a camera in the face of a politician, and then her daughter yelled at him. I can't imagine any place of employment that would take kindly to that.

And I'm just seeing highlights and as we all know, there is always more to the story, it is never perfectly clear.

 

Exactly. here's what I know and heard. And I heard the audio from the tape. Ryan was not out of line in her questioning. There was no vulgarity. She said basically this ... again, I'll use quotes but I'm paraphrasing due to not having a transcript in front of me ... "Senator McConnell, can I ask you about the Iraq war? Senator? Senator McConnell, can I ask you about the Iraq war? Senator McConnell, what are you hiding? " ... Basically, that was as far as she went. Her voice was 'forceful' but not too much so, imo. And know, I have no idea what she was refering to with the 'hiding' question.

She was at her place of employment, stuck a camera in the face of a politician, and then her daughter yelled at him. I can't imagine any place of employment that would take kindly to that.

 

Bingo. I think you and I are on the same path here. There are certainb venues that I have to be very careful about what I say and do. Certainly a work function, while I am in uniform would carry different expectations than a public events away from work. If she was away from work, I agree with YAS's comments, but at work, different rules.

Bingo. I think you and I are on the same path here. There are certainb venues that I have to be very careful about what I say and do. Certainly a work function, while I am in uniform would carry different expectations than a public events away from work. If she was away from work, I agree with YAS's comments, but at work, different rules.

 

That's pretty much how I feel. If she would have done it somewhere else, fine, freedom of speech and all, but when you are at your place of employment, you cross into the line of swinging your fist into someone else's nose. This is someone elses bottom line we are talking about potentially.

Bingo. I think you and I are on the same path here. There are certainb venues that I have to be very careful about what I say and do. Certainly a work function, while I am in uniform would carry different expectations than a public events away from work. If she was away from work, I agree with YAS's comments, but at work, different rules.

 

I believe I stated she was out on the street as nothing more than a citizen. She was not "at work", not on the clock and her daughter's obvious lack of judgement should not have cost her the job. Embarrassing yes, worthy of having a senator getting your ass fired? No. After all, the kid with the big mouth is about 12. Should mama have raised her kid to respect adults? Absolutely! But should the actions of a child in a public, and I emphasize public, setting cost someone a job because it pisses off a powerful senator? Not in this country, it shouldn't.