NorthSideSox72 Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(Controlled Chaos @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:26 PM) Ditto...he would benefit greatly from a wise baseball mind that he respects and will listen to. Key, right there - gotta be someone he respects. In fact, I'd bet he'd be willing to help in the process. Generate a list of names that have the right knowledge set, and let him be involved in the interviewing and choosing, from that list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 And your point? He also never won a WS, never won back to back 90 game seasons, and had at that point only been over .500 ONCE. Ozzie is a winner and this years lack of success falls solely on the crap KW put together and the horrific years that several of our stars are having. There is no better option out there for a manager. This is a good move. I am trying to figure out which White Sox players have clearly overachieved this season. I would say Jenks, and ... maybe Wasserman for being a non drafted free agent who made the big leagues? Any other names escape me. Clearly Guillen did not overachieve either this year but I have no problem with this timing. It eliminates any discussion of his tenure over the winter, when the onus should be solely on getting better players and fixing whatever is wrong with minor league player development. Most importantly, and many here will probably disagree but it is sr. mgmt's way of placing the blame on the players and the general manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:32 PM) Key, right there - gotta be someone he respects. In fact, I'd bet he'd be willing to help in the process. Generate a list of names that have the right knowledge set, and let him be involved in the interviewing and choosing, from that list. jack Mckeon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 08:32 PM) I am trying to figure out which White Sox players have clearly overachieved this season. I would say Jenks, and ... maybe Wasserman for being a non drafted free agent who made the big leagues? Any other names escape me. Clearly Guillen did not overachieve either this year but I have no problem with this timing. It eliminates any discussion of his tenure over the winter, when the onus should be solely on getting better players and fixing whatever is wrong with minor league player development. Most importantly, and many here will probably disagree but it is sr. mgmt's way of placing the blame on the players and the general manager. I definitely agree with the last point you make, and this means there better be a massive, massive overhaul of the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(drive like jehu @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 08:35 PM) Y'all are treating this like KW is rewarding Ozzie with an extension when it's obviously a punishment. Ozzie wants to be fired. Ozzie isn't getting what he wants until he has a more successful season. KW's extension is telling Ozzie he better shape up or he is going to be stuck with teams like this seasons for many years to come. Wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 jack Mckeon I always thought Jeff Torborg but I don't think Cora is going anywhere. He has interviewed for manager jobs but not sure who would hire him. Guillen has control over who the coaches will be, Williams gave him that authority I believe two years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:24 PM) And your point? He also never won a WS, never won back to back 90 game seasons, and had at that point only been over .500 ONCE. Ozzie is a winner and this years lack of success falls solely on the crap KW put together and the horrific years that several of our stars are having. There is no better option out there for a manager. This is a good move. You don't give a manager a contract extension during a season in which they're possibly the worst team in the league. You decided to compare the '06 Indians to the '07 Sox, this has nothing to do with '05. You're the one who started the Wedge/Guillen comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 The perfect guy would be Fisk for bench coach, who Ozzie already likes. Too bad it ain't happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:40 PM) The perfect guy would be Fisk for bench coach, who Ozzie already likes. Too bad it ain't happening. How about someone with a little experience. Nossek was great as a counter balance, and a man with a lot of experience. Torborg would be fine, however Ozzie isnt going to get rid of his little buddy. Great more Greg Walker for the life of Ozzie's contract, I just can't wait. Edited September 4, 2007 by southsideirish71 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:40 PM) You don't give a manager a contract extension during a season in which they're possibly the worst team in the league. You decided to compare the '06 Indians to the '07 Sox, this has nothing to do with '05. You're the one who started the Wedge/Guillen comparison. Once again, a contract extension takes into consideration your career and track record as a manager, during both contract extensions I compared the manager's record. Wedge had ONE season of above .500 ball, Ozzie has a ring, 90 wins seasons and one horrible year which is basically 98 percent the players fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 08:32 PM) I am trying to figure out which White Sox players have clearly overachieved this season. I would say Jenks, and ... maybe Wasserman for being a non drafted free agent who made the big leagues? Any other names escape me. Vazquez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:42 PM) How about someone with a little experience. Nossek was great as a counter balance, and a man with a lot of experience. Torborg would be fine, however Ozzie isnt going to get rid of his little buddy. Great more Greg Walker for the life of Ozzie's contract, I just can't wait. Nossek is a good point. Which is why i would like someone like mcKeon who has lots of experience, and hopefully someone with a little more NL experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:45 PM) Vazquez And maybe Fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:44 PM) Once again, a contract extension takes into consideration your career and track record as a manager, during both contract extensions I compared the manager's record. Wedge had ONE season of above .500 ball, Ozzie has a ring, 90 wins seasons and one horrible year which is basically 98 percent the players fault. If it's so easy to divvy out the blame/recognition then how much of '05 was Ozzie's doing? I didn't realize it was so easy to figure out how much of an effect a manager has on a ballclub's success, are the good seasons good because of the manager and the s***ty seasons s***ty because of the players? I just don't think giving a manager a contract extension during one of the worst season's in club history is a very good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 08:48 PM) I just don't think giving a manager a contract extension during one of the worst season's in club history is a very good idea. If you're going to say it wasn't Ozzie's fault, it was the players....then KW or Walker or Cooper should be fired. I just can't believe this team is so bad, and the big four, in terms of coaches, are going to be back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Sox Fan Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 This is great news!! Great job, Kenny!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 (edited) The perfect guy would be Fisk for bench coach, who Ozzie already likes. Too bad it ain't happening. It is too bad, because knowledgeable catchers are generally very good as bench coaches and managers, assuming they can communicate. Catchers seem to know the most about the game, running the risk of generalizing here but it seems to ring true. Hah, edit - Sandy Alomar Jr. Edited September 4, 2007 by 29andPoplar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawa_sox Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(RockRaines @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 04:24 PM) And your point? He also never won a WS, never won back to back 90 game seasons, and had at that point only been over .500 ONCE. Ozzie is a winner and this years lack of success falls solely on the crap KW put together and the horrific years that several of our stars are having. There is no better option out there for a manager. This is a good move. I agree with this assessment 100%. Kenny put this team together. And I wouldn't fire him either. He thought Cooper could fix the new live arms and based on the team's track record it seemed a fair gamble. Besides, none of the pieces that were moved to make room for the new arms were worth keeping anyway. Kenny is aggressive and therefore more apt to make mistakes, as well as win championships. A manager should not be fired for making mistakes. He should be canned for not learning by them ......... anyway, back to the main topic at hand ...... Ozzie. He's done well when his players are performing as expected. He gets royally trashed with regularity on these boards ...... so what? Substitute his name with any other and it would be no different. And win or lose, the Sox have never had anyone as entertaining, fun and forthright as Ozzie. Who has? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29andPoplar Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 And maybe Fields. Yeah I would agree with Fields (certainly his power stroke, not his defense at 3B). Vazquez no, I would say he is finally meeting some long overdue expectations but it's hair splitting I suppose. The point being ... not many. Very few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:49 PM) If you're going to say it wasn't Ozzie's fault, it was the players....then KW or Walker or Cooper should be fired. I just can't believe this team is so bad, and the big four, in terms of coaches, are going to be back. I agree. I will not however, get into any arguments over managers and coaches. It's just such a tired, old and boring debate and there's NO tangible evidence to work which makes it that much worse. It would be nice if people would just avoid these boring debates and instead realize that some people are just not going to like a manger and some are going to love him and just let it be. There's just no way to make an airtight argument either way. The distribution of blame argument is one that's filled with circular logic and assumptions which makes for some seriously boring discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:48 PM) If it's so easy to divvy out the blame/recognition then how much of '05 was Ozzie's doing? I didn't realize it was so easy to figure out how much of an effect a manager has on a ballclub's success, are the good seasons good because of the manager and the s***ty seasons s***ty because of the players? I just don't think giving a manager a contract extension during one of the worst season's in club history is a very good idea. Really now? You would think that from following the team you could possibly recognize when a team plays at the level of its shoetops like this year. There was nothing ANY manager in baseball could do to right this ship this year. Look at the horrible years these guys are having. Which is why you use their career as a good gauge of their success. Ozzie is 329-293 with an 11-1 mark in the playoffs. Out of his 4 years of manager, this is the first time he will be under .500. I would say thats enough to warrant an extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 01:25 PM) You don't give a manager a contract extension during a season in which they're possibly the worst team in the league. Unless you're trying to get him to sign for as cheaply as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeGofannon Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 04:48 PM) If it's so easy to divvy out the blame/recognition then how much of '05 was Ozzie's doing? I didn't realize it was so easy to figure out how much of an effect a manager has on a ballclub's success, are the good seasons good because of the manager and the s***ty seasons s***ty because of the players? I just don't think giving a manager a contract extension during one of the worst season's in club history is a very good idea. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 (edited) QUOTE(J-MAN @ Sep 4, 2007 -> 03:05 PM) Bruce Levine reportins on ESPN Sox about to announce they signed Ozzie to a long-term contract extension! I believe nothing BR.......UCE says about the Sox he is so worthless it is unreal. Edited September 4, 2007 by Soxfest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Pratt Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 When Ozzie says, "If you think I'm the problem, fire me," he means, "It's not my fault, but if you think so, let's see how you f***ing do without me!" Ozzie's the only one I truly care for on this staff. I really think people are crazy when they talk about how "bad" Ozzie is as he handles pitching staffs excellent, for one, and players generally like him. We all know how I feel about the scouts, coaches, GM and owner. We all know I put so much blame on this lousy team of lousy players and old players. It became clear a week or so ago that Ozzie was saying, "This team is awful. Blame me? s***, go ahead, but the truth is these players are awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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