The Democrat Thread

[bmags]

Here's an absolutely vital article to read:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/comme...in-1821215.html

 

If you guys want to talk about real news, I'm here.

[kapkomet]

Think I´ll write this here, also, I can´t find apostrophes on a portuguese keyboard, so bear with me.

 

When did Republicans start to think it´s okay to act completely terrified by the terrorists. What happened to bring it on?

 

I get the they aren´t citizens therefore shouldn´t be held in civilian courts arguments, I get that. BUt the OMG THE TERRORISTS ARE COMING arguments? What the hell? Grow a f***ing pair.

Well, I'll try to address this with some substance rather then the Kaperbolic ™ bulls***.

 

The trials of the original World Trade Center bombings was an epic clusterf***. Osama bin Laden obtained the names that was on the witness list, how the names were obtained, the intelligence used, etc. and used that as a part of the planning for the 9-11 attacks.

 

The problem with making these trials civilian trials in our country, as you partially alluded to, is that they aren't citizens, yet now, they're covered as citizens under our trial system. They can simply let him off because he didn't get his rights read (aka, technicality). That's horrible decision making on Eric Holder's part. I understand that he's seen all the evidence and made the decision based on it, but it's a poor decision, especially when earlier in the week he wanted others put in the military tribunal system.

 

If KSM wants to act as his own attorney, he can and will be given all the evidence he wants or needs to defend himself. That would be opening up the entire playbook on everything we have on Al Queda, potentially. And that will go right back over to Pakistan. I know that Al Queda isn't what it once was, but they can attack if they get the means to do it.

 

Now, since you Dems have screamed that this man was "tortured" - if I were KSM, I'd simply say that he was coerced into his admissions. Bad move - again, why would Eric Holder even put himself in this situation? It's stupid, at best, and damn dangerous at worst.

 

Now, I didn't mock you or your opinion, and I'd appreciate you doing the same. I am curious to see your defense of the decisions.

 

[bmags]

Right, those are hypotheticals, but one, Holder clearly would not have held a trial if he didn't believe he had a convictable amount of evidence that wasn't gathered through torture (and, as has been documented extensively, there was a while he wasn't tortured and information was gathered).

 

As for the technicality part, that's fairly absurd. BUt I'll reference a couple posts

 

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/...f_people_--.php

 

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives...nd-warriors.php

 

There is not a chance in hell they get acquitted. But also, even if some charges they get off to on technical grounds, there are loads of charges they can be put on.

 

That deferential to the gov't in terror cases is an understatement, cases with truly light evidence (liberty six, imo) still ended up in them getting substantial jail time.

[kapkomet]

Right, those are hypotheticals, but one, Holder clearly would not have held a trial if he didn't believe he had a convictable amount of evidence that wasn't gathered through torture (and, as has been documented extensively, there was a while he wasn't tortured and information was gathered).

 

As for the technicality part, that's fairly absurd. BUt I'll reference a couple posts

 

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/...f_people_--.php

 

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives...nd-warriors.php

 

There is not a chance in hell they get acquitted. But also, even if some charges they get off to on technical grounds, there are loads of charges they can be put on.

 

That deferential to the gov't in terror cases is an understatement, cases with truly light evidence (liberty six, imo) still ended up in them getting substantial jail time.

I agree in part, as I mentioned in my original post, that Holder knows what evidence is held. What I don't understand is, why even subject yourself to the chance that they get any new or substantial information via a trial, and also, the military tribunals are exactly for this sort of thing. Oh, but the people of NYC deserve to get to put these guys on trial? I don't think they give a s***, as long as they fry for it. Now, I'm not running around saying the world will be set on fire like Gu9l1an1, et. al. is, but I can see the point that it's absurd to put this in a very public display.

 

[bmags]

Well, to be fair, greenwald went on a rampage because only a certain number of suspects were chosen for public trial. Many others are still kind of in limbo. So I'm thinking he has a pretty tight seal on these cases.

 

These men are being tried because their verdict is certain. It's not exactly a true symbol of our legal system, but, whatever, I just want them convicted and GITMO's jail shut down.

[lostfan]

Well, I'll try to address this with some substance rather then the Kaperbolic ™ bulls***.

 

The trials of the original World Trade Center bombings was an epic clusterf***. Osama bin Laden obtained the names that was on the witness list, how the names were obtained, the intelligence used, etc. and used that as a part of the planning for the 9-11 attacks.

 

The problem with making these trials civilian trials in our country, as you partially alluded to, is that they aren't citizens, yet now, they're covered as citizens under our trial system. They can simply let him off because he didn't get his rights read (aka, technicality). That's horrible decision making on Eric Holder's part. I understand that he's seen all the evidence and made the decision based on it, but it's a poor decision, especially when earlier in the week he wanted others put in the military tribunal system.

 

If KSM wants to act as his own attorney, he can and will be given all the evidence he wants or needs to defend himself. That would be opening up the entire playbook on everything we have on Al Queda, potentially. And that will go right back over to Pakistan. I know that Al Queda isn't what it once was, but they can attack if they get the means to do it.

 

Now, since you Dems have screamed that this man was "tortured" - if I were KSM, I'd simply say that he was coerced into his admissions. Bad move - again, why would Eric Holder even put himself in this situation? It's stupid, at best, and damn dangerous at worst.

 

Now, I didn't mock you or your opinion, and I'd appreciate you doing the same. I am curious to see your defense of the decisions.

That really isn't an Obama Administration decision though (at least not in total), the SCOTUS made that ruling back in I think '06 and the Bush Administration never really developed anything after that to adjust. Besides reworking the tribunals this is really the first attempt by the government to actually move forward since then, at least how I understand it. Eric Holder isn't really making up procedures, he's trying to go with established law in a way he knows is going to succeed.

 

In this case though torture really isn't that relevant. Yeah it won't be admissible in civilian court but I'm sure (as you started getting at) the government had enough evidence to prosecute him before they even captured him.

Edited November 18, 2009 by lostfan

[lostfan]

Well, to be fair, greenwald went on a rampage because only a certain number of suspects were chosen for public trial. Many others are still kind of in limbo. So I'm thinking he has a pretty tight seal on these cases.

 

These men are being tried because their verdict is certain. It's not exactly a true symbol of our legal system, but, whatever, I just want them convicted and GITMO's jail shut down.

One thing I have to say about Greenwald is that he's consistent. He saves his worst venom for Republicans but he's been pretty livid at Obama and the Dems lately.

[kapkomet]

That really isn't an Obama Administration decision though (at least not in total), the SCOTUS made that ruling back in I think '06 and the Bush Administration never really developed anything after that to adjust. Besides reworking the tribunals this is really the first attempt by the government to actually move forward since then, at least how I understand it. Eric Holder isn't really making up procedures, he's trying to go with established law in a way he knows is going to succeed.

 

In this case though torture really isn't that relevant. Yeah it won't be admissible in civilian court but I'm sure (as you started getting at) the government had enough evidence to prosecute him before they even captured him.

The military tribunals could and should keep "jurisdiction" over this. It's precedence, SCOTUS decisions be damned - rewrite the law and get it set up the right way. Although, I can't remember exactly how all that went down right now and frankly I'm too lazy to look at it at 12:30 at night.

[lostfan]

The military tribunals could and should keep "jurisdiction" over this. It's precedence, SCOTUS decisions be damned - rewrite the law and get it set up the right way. Although, I can't remember exactly how all that went down right now and frankly I'm too lazy to look at it at 12:30 at night.

There's still some people (i.e. Nashiri) that are going to be getting tribunals.

[bmags]

And this new consensus that our justice system is completely rigged for the defense is so hilariously false.

[NorthSideSox72]

I hate her and the TMZification we're really starting to see in politics these days. My roommate watches Morning Joe on MSNBC (the other shows are no better, frankly) and within five minutes I found myself getting visibly angry.

 

The stories aren't about what the issues are, the stories are about how popular the issues are or what Sarah Palin wrote on her facebook page.

 

Her facebook page, for christsakes! When did the media become seventh grade homeroom?

 

I find myself listening to NPR, occasionally reading a couple blogs and that's about it anymore. I'm actively trying to stay disengaged because I don't want any part of campaign 2012 when its only 2009. It makes me sad.

NPR and PBS (at least the one here in Chicago, WTTW), are some of the best news sources around. Unfortunately, they have minimal resources, so they don't report on nearly as much as the big kids can.

 

[lostfan]

And this new consensus that our justice system is completely rigged for the defense is so hilariously false.

Yeah I don't really get that. If anything, the deck is stacked AGAINST people being charged with terrorism.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Palin is a far right goddess. Simple as that. She is an idol.

 

She's really not. Simple as that.

 

I hear probably 10 times more about her in this thread than I do in every day news. An interview her comes on, I change the channel; I see an article on msn.com, I don't click it; I see an article in the newspaper, I don't read it.

 

You greatly underestimate how many Republicans simple couldn't care less about her anymore. I wish she would just go away, and i'm fairly confident that's the majority opinion of people with half a brain now.

[lostfan]

She's really not. Simple as that.

 

I hear probably 10 times more about her in this thread than I do in every day news. An interview her comes on, I change the channel; I see an article on msn.com, I don't click it; I see an article in the newspaper, I don't read it.

 

You greatly underestimate how many Republicans simple couldn't care less about her anymore. I wish she would just go away, and i'm fairly confident that's the majority opinion of people with half a brain now.

I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that she isn't going away. She unfortunately has more influence on the direction of national political topics than I'd care for her to have but I can't control that. I don't really take her seriously, she's just something for me to occasionally laugh at and mock.

 

On Republicans who say substantive things on a regular basis, I'm all ears. I like the debate.

[NorthSideSox72]

She's really not. Simple as that.

 

I hear probably 10 times more about her in this thread than I do in every day news. An interview her comes on, I change the channel; I see an article on msn.com, I don't click it; I see an article in the newspaper, I don't read it.

 

You greatly underestimate how many Republicans simple couldn't care less about her anymore. I wish she would just go away, and i'm fairly confident that's the majority opinion of people with half a brain now.

Yeah, I tend to agree. Just saw a poll recently posted, about various potential GOP Prez candidates for 2012. Something like 70% of people felt that she was nto qualified to be President - 70%. Even among GOP'ers, it was near 50%, and she was beaten badly by the other potentials in most categories. Palin is only a story because two groups of people keep making her relevant - her lunatic followers (of which there are a small number), and the far left who want to use her as a punching bag. No one else cares.

 

[bmags]

She, being a former VP candidate, is clearly not going away. And she's making sure of it. I also think it's false to say she isn't popular among republicans. Clearly the numbers of people she draws are not democrats.

[NorthSideSox72]

She, being a former VP candidate, is clearly not going away. And she's making sure of it. I also think it's false to say she isn't popular among republicans. Clearly the numbers of people she draws are not democrats.

Depends on how you define "popular". I think she's wildly popular with a certain segment of the GOP, but the rest just see her as noise at this point. That's what I have seen.

 

[lostfan]

Depends on how you define "popular". I think she's wildly popular with a certain segment of the GOP, but the rest just see her as noise at this point. That's what I have seen.

Ann Coulter anyone?

 

In fairness to Palin she is NOWHERE NEAR as maliciously ignorant as Coulter, the comparison is just for the extent of her influence.

[bmags]

Anytime you are polling as pulling 40% or more of your base, that's popular.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Anytime you are polling as pulling 40% or more of your base, that's popular.

OK, then she's popular by your standards. Doesn't really change what I was trying to say. She's has a cult following, if you will.

 

[Balta1701]

OK, then she's popular by your standards. Doesn't really change what I was trying to say. She's has a cult following, if you will.

In a multi-way primary though...a cult following of 40% of the voters is enough to, you know, win.

[bmags]

So, Sen. Sessions (R-backwater craziness), just had opening statements saying that these men (tha terrorists) were prisoners of war. WHAT THE HELL?!?! First they wanted them to be called enemy combatants to avoid the Geneva Convention, now they are saying they are POWs? What the hell is he talking about?

[NorthSideSox72]

In a multi-way primary though...a cult following of 40% of the voters is enough to, you know, win.

You are assuming mutual exclusivity. The poll numbers I saw (I'll have to go find it) had Palin's numbers less than all the others in every positive way. She was trounced. Palin may have 30% support, but others had well above that, adding up to more than 100%.

 

[Soxy]

Stay Classy. Unbelievable.

[Balta1701]

Stay Classy. Unbelievable.

Is the "Unbelievable" there sarcastic? Because I don't see what about it is unbelievable.