Russia v Georgia

[southsider2k5]

Speaking of war crimes...

 

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...6-12377,00.html

 

Russia cluster bombed Georgia - claim

 

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From correspondents in Tbilisi | August 15, 2008

 

INTERNATIONAL rights group Human Rights Watch said today it had evidence that Russian aircraft had dropped cluster bombs on Georgia, including the flashpoint city of Gori, killing at least 11 civilians.

 

The New York-based non-governmental organisation said the dead included a Dutch journalist and that dozens more had been wounded.

 

Human Rights Watch said its researchers had spoken to doctors and victims and had examined photographic evidence that led them to conclude cluster bombs had been used in Gori and the nearby town of Ruisi, south of South Ossetia.

 

"Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw,'' said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch, in a statement.

 

"Russia's use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines.''

 

Dropped from aircraft or fired from artillery, cluster bombs explode in midair, scattering bomblets. They pose a lasting threat as many bomblets fail to explode on impact and act as landmines.

 

A landmark international convention banning cluster munitions was formally adopted by 111 countries in Ireland in May in a move that organisers hoped would stigmatise the lethal weapons as much as landmines.

 

Russia and Georgia did not take part.

 

"This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel's war with Hezbollah in Lebanon,'' said the rights group.

[lostfan]

...you know we use those regularly too right?

[southsider2k5]

...you know we use those regularly too right?

 

Two wrongs make a right?

[lostfan]

Two wrongs make a right?

It's the pot calling the kettle black - we're in a pretty weak condition to criticize. It'd be different if they were, say, using chemical weapons, because we don't do it. But for us to make a fuss about something we regularly do (and have done recently) doesn't pass muster with people outside this country.

[southsider2k5]

It's the pot calling the kettle black - we're in a pretty weak condition to criticize. It'd be different if they were, say, using chemical weapons, because we don't do it. But for us to make a fuss about something we regularly do (and have done recently) doesn't pass muster with people outside this country.

 

That is probably why the US isn't raising a stink about it. Since I don't cluster bomb anyone, I don't see the problem with me pointing it out.

[lostfan]

That is probably why the US isn't raising a stink about it. Since I don't cluster bomb anyone, I don't see the problem with me pointing it out.

Fair enough

[kapkomet]

Woe is me, AmeriKKKa sucks. I hate our country, we have no moral standing anymore... we can't confront "evil" of our time because of the "moral equivalancy" test... woe is me, woe is me, I'm SOOOOOO ashamed! Kaperbole ™.

 

 

Now that I have that out of the way, forget WMD's, forget "terrorism", forget all that. Saddam Hussein's Iraqi government was in clear violation of AGREED UPON cease fire agreements brokered (in part) by the same Russians who think it's ok to over-run a country who has close ties to the United States... oh wait, that's not it, it's because said country controls the energy pipelines to Europe. But the US is only in Iraq for the oil... just ask any card carrying member of the Democrat party.

 

You know what's funny? I don't see plastered all over the news the chants of "no blood for oil" or anti war protests all over the place in the streets of Moscow. I don't see any effegies (spelling) of Vlad Putin in a park designated to protest the "war" in Russia. I don't see the polls in Russia that say this war is "unpopular"... oh wait a minute, it's because those people would be DEAD.

 

Just thought I'd toss out a few thoughts about that, but then again, I'm just s*** slinging and it doesn't really mean anything anyway. Woe is me.

[Cknolls]

...you know we use those regularly too right?

 

 

On civilians in a populated city?

 

 

[lostfan]

The moral equivalency thing really does matter which is why it was such a big deal when we had to lay the smack down on our soldiers when they couldn't behave.

[lostfan]

On civilians in a populated city?

The article just said they used cluster bombs, it didn't say why, it didn't say they used them ON civilians (which, obviously, is bad if that's what happened).

 

And no, the United States has never intentionally targeted civilians and has avoided using munitions that would cause unnecessary collateral damage whenever possible... but the fact is we still use them.

[GoSox05]

On civilians in a populated city?

 

 

Actualy we do. Civilians have been killed in Basra and Baghdad from the bomblets. We also droped 1,765 cluster bombs in Kosovo.

 

 

The bomblets are often picked up by kids thinking they are toys.

 

 

"On one night, we received 35 dead from cluster bombs," Dr. Safaal-Amaidi, director of Najaf Teaching Hospital.

Edited August 15, 2008 by GoSox05

[Balta1701]

President Bush Wednesday promised that U.S. naval forces would deliver humanitarian aid to war-torn Georgia before his administration had received approval from Turkey, which controls naval access to the Black Sea, or the Pentagon had planned a seaborne operation, U.S. officials said Thursday.

 

As of late Thursday, Ankara, a NATO ally, hadn't cleared any U.S. naval vessels to steam to Georgia through the Bosporus and the Dardanelles, the narrow straits that connect the Mediterranean and the Black Seas, the officials said. Under the 1936 Montreaux Convention, countries must notify Turkey before sending warships through the straits.

 

Pentagon officials told McClatchy that they were increasingly dubious that any U.S. Navy vessels would join the aid operation, in large part because the U.S.-based hospital ships likely to go, the USNS Comfort and the USNS Mercy, would take weeks to arrive.

 

"The president was writing checks to the Georgians without knowing what he had in the bank," said a senior administration official.

 

"The president got out in front of the planning when he talked publicly about using naval forces," said a second senior administration official. "At that point we need to look at treaty obligations, our bilateral relations with the Turks and others, waterway restrictions and what kind of ships might be appropriate and usable — something like the Comfort or something already in the Med (Mediterranean)."

 

...

U.S. officials said the Turks hadn't cleared U.S. naval vessels to transit the Bosporus and the Dardanelles.

 

"The Turks haven't been helpful," said a State Department official. "They are being sluggish and unresponsive."

 

The Russian invasion of Georgia has almost certainly unnerved Turkey because it has huge energy and trade interests in adjacent Central Asia.

 

Turkey also may be reluctant to jeopardize the $24 billion in annual trade it does with Russia, which provides around 70 percent of its natural gas supplies. The Turkish Navy also shares the Black Sea with Russia's powerful Black Sea Fleet, which in part has prompted Ankara in recent years to restrict U.S. and NATO naval operations and exercises there.

Link.

[mr_genius]

Poland next?

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815/ap_on_...missile_defense

 

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.

 

 

[kapkomet]

I'm surprised that someone hasn't brought up the fact that we're getting aid faster to Georgia then we did Louisiana. (the article above notwithstanding).

 

[kapkomet]

Poland next?

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815/ap_on_...missile_defense

Russia won't do it.

[Balta1701]

Russia won't do it.

I can't imagine they'd be that foolish. But I can fully see them cutting off gas supplies to Poland and using energy as their best weapon.

[kapkomet]

I can't imagine they'd be that foolish. But I can fully see them cutting off gas supplies to Poland and using energy as their best weapon.

And that in the long run would be foolish as well, because if Russia goes out and does that (cuts off supplies) enough, they won't have any money to take over the world (again).

[Balta1701]

And that in the long run would be foolish as well, because if Russia goes out and does that (cuts off supplies) enough, they won't have any money to take over the world (again).

There are plenty of other people who will buy that gas and listen to Russia's commands. Turkey for example.

 

This is a direct consequence of the energy mess we've gotten ourselves in to...countries like Russia are able to win fights using energy as a club more powerful than their army and they can do so without getting other armies involved.

[kapkomet]

There are plenty of other people who will buy that gas and listen to Russia's commands. Turkey for example.

 

This is a direct consequence of the energy mess we've gotten ourselves in to...countries like Russia are able to win fights using energy as a club more powerful than their army and they can do so without getting other armies involved.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, seeing as how Turkey wants to remain in NATO.

 

[lostfan]

We still have the "food" card, btw. If our hand was forced.

[Balta1701]

I wouldn't be so sure of that, seeing as how Turkey wants to remain in NATO.

You're actually expecting that all of NATO will suddenly stop buying Russian Natural Gas to support Poland?

[kapkomet]

You're actually expecting that all of NATO will suddenly stop buying Russian Natural Gas to support Poland?

No, but Turkey isn't going to just "give in to the Russians" as you were (I think) alluding to.

 

[Balta1701]

No, but Turkey isn't going to just "give in to the Russians" as you were (I think) alluding to.

No, I was just saying that if Russia cuts off gas supplies to Poland as punishment for the missile system, they're not going to have any trouble selling it elsewhere. And Turkey's energy demand is clearly playing a role in their sluggishness regarding letting the U.S. aid Georgia.

[southsider2k5]

We still have the "food" card, btw. If our hand was forced.

 

Great point. I think they would blink a little quicker.

[Balta1701]

The WaPo today devoted a column inch or two to talking about Georgia's past human rights record.

But the situation inside Georgia belies Saakashvili's rhetorical commitment to freedom. Most glaring was his handling of opposition protests last fall. The State Department's 2007 Human Rights Report, released just a few months ago, found "serious problems" with Georgia's human rights record and notes "excessive use of force to disperse demonstrations"; "impunity of police officers"; and declining respect for freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly and political participation. Ana Dolidze, a democracy advocate and former chair of Georgia's Young Lawyers Association, has described in detail how Saakashvili acted quickly after entering office to empower the executive branch at the expense of parliament and to strengthen the government by "stifling political expression, pressuring influential media and targeting vocal critics and opposition leaders" -- including by using law enforcement agencies. Saakashvili is far from the morally pure democrat he would have the West believe he is.