Piracy around the Horn of Africa

[kapkomet]

Here's the actual question then...what body has the authority to try the survivor? Somalia itself doesn't even have a court system, they haven't had a government in 20 years. Current law is essentially out of date because no one has had to deal with pirates as a major problem in such a long time. Current extant law would have exactly what you don't want; pirates captured by a country would be tried by the country that captured them or that they had attacked. In this case, they'd attacked a U.S. flagged ship, were captured/killed by the U.S., so the only option currently in the law would be for the U.S. to try them.

 

Unless, of course, the U.S. were to acknowledge the legitimacy of an international body, like the International Criminal Court. Which is of course what I'd prefer, but the U.S. has refused to participate in that court because of the fact that it could someday try U.S. citizens for things like ordering or committing torture and other war crimes.

I, like lf just said, think it should go the tribunal route.

 

[lostfan]

The SCOTUS has shot down the Bush Administration's travishamockery of military tribunals, where evidence obtained under torture was allowed, where there was no appeal, where the government got to play both judge and prosecutor, where 95% of the evidence was withheld from the defense, etc. They have not shut down the military court system. The issue currently is that the military court system has no jurisdiction here unless it is given jurisdiction by Congress.

Then that solves it for me, as far as what I want the government to do.

[mr_genius]

Apparently the pirates are just enviornmentalists who are just a bit misunderstood...

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-vazq...s_b_186015.html

 

[HuskyCaucasian]

Far right goes nuts over Obama's handling of the pirates, only to be proven to be fools just days... even hours... later.

[mr_genius]

the biggest scandal in all this is how the facist media is treating these so called pirates.

 

the correct term to use when referring to these young men is 'economic freedom fighters'.

Edited April 13, 2009 by mr_genius

[Balta1701]

Then that solves it for me, as far as what I want the government to do.

Personally, I'd prefer setting up a system such that maritime crime can wind up being offered to the ICC. The U.S. may have a justice system that can take care of the people doing this, but a lot of the other countries that have ships out there don't have any urge to deal with them, and will thus just pay the ransom or hand them back to Somalia.

[mr_genius]

Personally, I'd prefer setting up a system such that maritime crime can wind up being offered to the ICC. The U.S. may have a justice system that can take care of the people doing this, but a lot of the other countries that have ships out there don't have any urge to deal with them, and will thus just pay the ransom or hand them back to Somalia.

 

i believe the individuals whom shot the economic freedom fighters should stand trial. for murder.

[lostfan]

the biggest scandal in all this is how the facist media is treating these so called pirates.

 

the correct term to use when referring to these young men is 'economic freedom fighters'.

[kapkomet]

i believe the individuals whom shot the economic freedom fighters should stand trial. for murder.

If this were Iraq under a GWB adminstration, they would... and John Kerry would be proud to talk about our soldiers raping and killing in the middle of the night again, even though he was lying through his teeth.

[Balta1701]

I think we can probably all agree that this is a bad idea.

Dutch commandos freed 20 Yemeni hostages on Saturday and briefly detained seven pirates who had forced the Yemenis to sail a "mother ship" attacking vessels in the Gulf of Aden, NATO officials said.

 

In a separate incident, gunmen from Somalia seized a Belgian-registered ship and its 10 crew, including seven Europeans, further south in the Indian Ocean.

 

"The Pompei is heading slowly towards the Somali coast," Peter Mertens, a spokesman for a Belgian government crisis centre, said. "We have had visual contact from a helicopter of a Spanish navy ship."

 

Somali sea gangs have captured dozens of ships, taken hundreds of sailors prisoner and made off with tens of millions of dollars in ransoms despite an unprecedented deployment by foreign navies in waters off the Horn of Africa.

 

The attacks have disrupted U.N. aid supplies, driven up insurance costs and forced some shipping companies to route cargo round South Africa, rather than risk approaching Somalia.

 

NATO Lieutenant Commander Alexandre Fernandes, speaking on board the Portuguese warship Corte-Real, said the 20 fishermen were rescued after a Dutch navy frigate on a NATO patrol responded to an assault on a Greek-owned tanker by pirates firing assault rifles and grenades.

 

Commandos from the Dutch ship, the De Zeven Provincien, pursued the pirates, who were on a small skiff, back to their "mother ship", a hijacked Yemeni fishing dhow.

 

"We have freed the hostages, we have freed the dhow and we have seized the weapons... The pirates did not fight and no gunfire was exchanged," Fernandes told Reuters. The Corte-Real is also on a NATO anti-piracy mission.

 

He said the hostages had been held since last week. The commandos briefly detained and questioned the seven gunmen, he told Reuters, but had no legal power to arrest them.

 

"NATO does not have a detainment policy. The warship must follow its national law," he said.

 

"They can only arrest them if the pirates are from the Netherlands, the victims are from the Netherlands, or if they are in Netherlands waters."

I feel this makes a very strong case for an international agreement allowing these guys to be tried before the international courts. Because right now, the alternative is releasing them. Somehow that doesn't strike me as a very effective method of dealing with these guys. Getting the U.S. to take the lead here in setting up a legal way of dealing with crimes on the high seas would be an excellent step.

[Texsox]

Forgotten in all this is the snipers accomplished their mission without hurting a single pirate parrot. That's some shooting.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think we can probably all agree that this is a bad idea.

I feel this makes a very strong case for an international agreement allowing these guys to be tried before the international courts. Because right now, the alternative is releasing them. Somehow that doesn't strike me as a very effective method of dealing with these guys. Getting the U.S. to take the lead here in setting up a legal way of dealing with crimes on the high seas would be an excellent step.

Note this key phrase in that article:

 

The warship must follow its national law

 

If US law allows for detainment and trial in its maritime law, they can do it. And I think US law does indeed allow for it. Easy solution - have all the NATO multi-national vessels be flagged as US ships (or other countries with similar laws). And if other countries like Belgium have their own ships there, just leave them out of the hunt, and try to encourage them to change their laws or stay the hell out of the way.

 

[Texsox]

Note this key phrase in that article:

 

 

 

If US law allows for detainment and trial in its maritime law, they can do it. And I think US law does indeed allow for it. Easy solution - have all the NATO multi-national vessels be flagged as US ships (or other countries with similar laws). And if other countries like Belgium have their own ships there, just leave them out of the hunt, and try to encourage them to change their laws or stay the hell out of the way.

 

If they are flagged NATO, won't they have to follow NATO law. Which IIRC, would then call for a NATO resolution authorizing those actions. Hmm, a pirate war . . .

[NorthSideSox72]

If they are flagged NATO, won't they have to follow NATO law. Which IIRC, would then call for a NATO resolution authorizing those actions. Hmm, a pirate war . . .

That was my point.

 

[Texsox]

That was my point.

 

Would NATO pass a resolution?

 

The key here is actually someone helping that nation. And by helping it may take an invasion. Too bad they don't have anything worth keeping or it would already have been done. Oil is the key to save citizens from evil.

[NorthSideSox72]

Would NATO pass a resolution?

 

The key here is actually someone helping that nation. And by helping it may take an invasion. Too bad they don't have anything worth keeping or it would already have been done. Oil is the key to save citizens from evil.

No, they wouldn't. My point is, give them the tools they need to act - flag all the coalition ships you can as a country that actually has useful on-point laws.

 

[Texsox]

No, they wouldn't. My point is, give them the tools they need to act - flag all the coalition ships you can as a country that actually has useful on-point laws.

 

That sounds great on the surface, but how do you reconcile what would in effect be ignoring your own country's laws? Presumably, the laws of your country reflect your morals, ethics, etc. Is there a danger in setting those aside?

 

I guess the route that would fit is to have each country rewrite their piracy laws to reflect modern realities or hire the thugs of the world to deal with the problem.

[NorthSideSox72]

That sounds great on the surface, but how do you reconcile what would in effect be ignoring your own country's laws? Presumably, the laws of your country reflect your morals, ethics, etc. Is there a danger in setting those aside?

 

I guess the route that would fit is to have each country rewrite their piracy laws to reflect modern realities or hire the thugs of the world to deal with the problem.

No, I am not saying that a country flag their own vessels otherwise. I am saying that vessels flagged as NATO (not flagged as a country specifically) should choose a NATO country flag that gives them the tools they need. And NATO should focus on getting the countries with the most useful laws, the most involved in this. Countries like Belgium, who are basically impotent for this purpose, should be encouraged to provide assistance in some other theatre.

 

[Texsox]

No, I am not saying that a country flag their own vessels otherwise. I am saying that vessels flagged as NATO (not flagged as a country specifically) should choose a NATO country flag that gives them the tools they need. And NATO should focus on getting the countries with the most useful laws, the most involved in this. Countries like Belgium, who are basically impotent for this purpose, should be encouraged to provide assistance in some other theatre.

 

Ah, good plan.

 

The root is fixing Somalia, but that is in the eye of the beholder

[NorthSideSox72]

Ah, good plan.

 

The root is fixing Somalia, but that is in the eye of the beholder

Fixing Somalia is a huge, expensive and dangerous undertaking, and I am not sure we could even do that right now if we wanted to. Better to do an amalgam of other things:

 

--Make sure the coalition vessels are flagged with countries with the right laws, as I said

--Work with the Somali interim government to do land raids, as they have proposed, by providing some guidance, equipment and money

--Special Forces units to go in and start picking off these guys on land

--Work with shipping companies to get them to either not go into this area, or be required to have armed security on board

--Establish some very specific paths through the area, like flight paths, that the coalition recommends ships stay within - this will dramatically reduce the amount of sea space the coalition ships need to patrol

 

[southsider2k5]

Any talk yet about the Obama administration having to decide what to do with the 16 year old boy who could be facing life in prison, or even the death penalty for his role as a pirate and kidnapper?

[kapkomet]

Any talk yet about the Obama administration having to decide what to do with the 16 year old boy who could be facing life in prison, or even the death penalty for his role as a pirate and kidnapper?

Bringing him to trial in the US is wrong, I know that much. This was an international civilian incident and should be tried in international court.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Fixing Somalia is a huge, expensive and dangerous undertaking, and I am not sure we could even do that right now if we wanted to. Better to do an amalgam of other things:

 

--Make sure the coalition vessels are flagged with countries with the right laws, as I said

--Work with the Somali interim government to do land raids, as they have proposed, by providing some guidance, equipment and money

--Special Forces units to go in and start picking off these guys on land

--Work with shipping companies to get them to either not go into this area, or be required to have armed security on board

--Establish some very specific paths through the area, like flight paths, that the coalition recommends ships stay within - this will dramatically reduce the amount of sea space the coalition ships need to patrol

 

I don't understand why ships don't do this now. From all accounts, these pirates usually attack with just a handful of people. If ships would have 2-3 paid, armed security personnel on board or even a small cache of weapons they could bring out on their own, wouldn't that be enough of a deterrent to cut down on some of this hijackings?

 

I was thinking, an organization like Blackwater, who is a private military contractor could make some money here. They arent exactly beloved in Iraq right now (if they're even still allowed to be there) but I'd think they could make some money here if they offered to "police" this region a little bit

[BigSqwert]

Bringing him to trial in the US is wrong, I know that much. This was an international civilian incident and should be tried in international court.

Agreed

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Bringing him to trial in the US is wrong, I know that much. This was an international civilian incident and should be tried in international court.

 

 

I disagree. He attacked a U.S. ship and took hostage of a U.S. citizen. IMO, they have every right to bring him to trial in the U.S. That being said, despite my initial reaction of being glad he'd have to face a U.S. judge for his actions, I am now kind of feeling bad for him. He is only 16-18 years old, appears to have little education, knows no English, is thousands of miles away from home in a country that is nothing like his homeland - he must be terrified. He needs to answer for his actions, but I do feel kind of bad for him. Especially if he was only doing this because he was somewhat manipulated into doing so as his father says (which could very well be false).