Do FAs want to come here?

[chiguy79]

Players go to a) where they get paid the most B) where they could win a WS every year and c) close to family/home (a lessor consideration for most)....in Matsui's case we didn't fit any of the three criteria, we can/should win the AL Central each year but we are not in the Angels/Boston/NY league of WS contenders each year, we also don't pay top $$ to free agents so I don't think it is anything the Sox are doing wrong, I think they have been pretty smart of late and field a competitive team.

 

Why go for a big $$ free agent who if it doesn't pan out cost you years of rebuilding, we don't have the ability to buy out our mistakes like LAx2/NYx2/BOS/Cubs, etc.

[witesoxfan]

Why would he want to come here as opposed to the Angels, who have won their division and made the playoffs for the last 5 years? Especially after seeing the success his former teammate Bobby Abreu had with the Angels? Is this inside info, Jason?

 

The A's won the division in 2006. Just a small point, but worth noting.

[iamshack]

The A's won the division in 2006. Just a small point, but worth noting.

Ahh, good catch.

[kwolf68]

FA will come to the White Sox. Chicago is always ranked as the favorite visiting city in MLB. Players generally go to the place that offers them the most cash. The White Sox aren't known for that, and if it becomes a bidding war, they usually drop out.

 

It has nothing to do with wanting to play for Ozzie or on the other side of town, wanting to play at Wrigley Field. Its all about the benjamins.

 

 

Ding! It has nothing to do with not wanting to play for the Sox. Everyone thinks EVERY player wants to play for Boston and the NYY...why is that? Well, because those teams pay prime DOLLARS + they are also competitive.

 

If the Sox field a competitive team (which we most often do) and paid what the Bankees paid (which they never do) then we'd be in the mix for every damn free agent we wanted.

 

The Sox are playing from a different business model and that model says we will NOT be able to sign CC Sabathia, Mark Texeira or AJ Burnett in one off season, let alone all 3 of them.

 

The Cubs will pay good money, but they are stupid so you can't put them into the mix with the Red Sox and Yanks

[WCSox]

Well, I'll agree to disagree. I think LA/Anaheim is a more attractive option for most free agents than the South Side, and in Matsui's case, there is a far bigger asian population in SoCal than in Chicago. I think all things being even, he would have chosen LA over here 10 times out of 10.

 

So Cal pretty much destroys Chicago in terms of lifestyle as well. Much better climate, much more scenic, and more to do in general. The biggest negative about So Cal is cost of living, and that matters a lot less when you have tens of millions in the bank.

 

[iamshack]

Ding! It has nothing to do with not wanting to play for the Sox. Everyone thinks EVERY player wants to play for Boston and the NYY...why is that? Well, because those teams pay prime DOLLARS + they are also competitive.

 

If the Sox field a competitive team (which we most often do) and paid what the Bankees paid (which they never do) then we'd be in the mix for every damn free agent we wanted.

 

The Sox are playing from a different business model and that model says we will NOT be able to sign CC Sabathia, Mark Texeira or AJ Burnett in one off season, let alone all 3 of them.

 

The Cubs will pay good money, but they are stupid so you can't put them into the mix with the Red Sox and Yanks

I think for the most part money does do most of the talking, but when we're talking about established veteran players who already have banked tens of millions of dollars throughout their careers, they usually go places where they have a chance to win. Now that's not saying that if the Yankees offered $2 million, and the Pirates offered $10 million, that player would not choose the Pirates, but if the numbers are anywhere close to the same ballpark, the veteran player usually chooses the team he feels has a better chance of winning.

[Ranger]

I don't think so... when's the last time the sox went out and got a free agent to come here that wasn't looking to 'rebuild his image' because of injury or attitude/performance problem. (Putz, Jones, Vizquel, Pods, Garcia, Colon, Dye, AJP, (alexei, iguchi, viceiedo were from out of country) Also overpay: (Dotel, Linebrink)... I think this organization has a bad rep around the MLB because of Ozzie and KW. Ozzie because he's an ass and will slam his players publicly and bench them when they don't perform. (Swisher situation, Crede, Cabrera, Magglio) and KW because of the lack of commitment on long term deals (which is a good thing) and things like the Cabrerea situation where he offered arb but told him he would sit on the bench. Therefore Cabrera lost millions in free agency and a decent contract so KW could get a draft pick..

 

No. Players aren't afraid to come here because of those two. In fact, you ever notice the only players that have anything bad to say about either of those two are players that weren't very good when they were here? If you believe players don't want to play here because of Ozzie and KW, you also have to believe they don't want to play in a city where you can get booed on opening day for going 0 for 4.

 

And you're going to complain about benching players when they don't perform? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Um, isn't sticking with underperfomring players something that most fans b**** about?

 

Cabrera was totally different because the guy had some mysterious degenerative knee condition and was going to Austria to have it looked at, and he wouldn't let the Sox examine him for themsleves. Screw that, I wouldn't have wanted to pay him either. That's a lot of money to throw around.

 

The real answer is more along the lines of the following:

 

Also, keep in mind the Sox don't get in bidding wars and the last time they almost landed a big FA (Hunter) the Angels swooped in at the last moment.

 

 

 

The same people who are slamming the Sox for signing Scott Linebrink are complaining that no free agents want to come here. In order to get FA's to come here, the sox have to overpay, just like other teams do. That means offering more money and more years than the next team,despite what the players true "value" is. That usually doesn't turn out very well, as many teams are saddled with huge contracts that they cannot get rid of. The Cubs are the perfect case in point.

 

[iamshack]

No. Players aren't afraid to come here because of those two. In fact, you ever notice the only players that have anything bad to say about either of those two are players that weren't very good when they were here? If you believe players don't want to play here because of Ozzie and KW, you also have to believe they don't want to play in a city where you can get booed on opening day for going 0 for 4.

 

And you're going to complain about benching players when they don't perform? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Um, isn't sticking with underperfomring players something that most fans b**** about?

 

Ordonez was totally different because the guy had some mysterious degenerative knee condition and was going to Austria to have it looked at, and he wouldn't let the Sox examine him for themsleves. Screw that, I wouldn't have wanted to pay him either. That's a lot of money to throw around.

 

The real answer is more along the lines of the following:

Edited for accuracy.

[southsider2k5]

No. Players aren't afraid to come here because of those two. In fact, you ever notice the only players that have anything bad to say about either of those two are players that weren't very good when they were here? If you believe players don't want to play here because of Ozzie and KW, you also have to believe they don't want to play in a city where you can get booed on opening day for going 0 for 4.

 

And you're going to complain about benching players when they don't perform? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Um, isn't sticking with underperfomring players something that most fans b**** about?

 

Cabrera was totally different because the guy had some mysterious degenerative knee condition and was going to Austria to have it looked at, and he wouldn't let the Sox examine him for themsleves. Screw that, I wouldn't have wanted to pay him either. That's a lot of money to throw around.

 

The real answer is more along the lines of the following:

 

I think you mean Magglio Ordonez, right?

[Ranger]

Edited for accuracy.

 

 

I think you mean Magglio Ordonez, right?

 

 

Of course. I responded to the previous post and was even thinking of Mags awful curly hair and the constant staring-directly-into-the-sun face while I was typing.

 

Therefore, my apologies to b-rye because I was thinking about Mags when he was talking about Orlando.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Ranger

[Ranger]

But in terms of business, I think that's kind of a smart move on the Sox part. You tell a guy (Cabrera) you're offering arb but have every intention of letting the younger player take over the postion the follwoing year. You're being truthful to the player and at the same time, enticing him to decline arbitration which means you get picks. All the while knowing you will never have Cabrera play for you ever again anyway. That's just smart maneuvering.

[iamshack]

But in terms of business, I think that's kind of a smart move on the Sox part. You tell a guy (Cabrera) you're offering arb but have every intention of letting the younger player take over the postion the follwoing year. You're being truthful to the player and at the same time, enticing him to decline arbitration which means you get picks. All the while knowing you will never have Cabrera play for you ever again anyway. That's just smart maneuvering.

It's smart maneuvering, but it's borderline unethical given the current economic situation. By offering arbitration to a player in this economic climate, you make him somewhat undesirable as a FA because the team that signs him has to surrender an unprotected draft choice. This is fine and all, if you are trying to work within the spirit of the rules and keep the player for the betterment of your team. However, if you're doing it just because you know the player will eventually be signed and you'll receive a draft pick as compensation, all the while not wanting that player's services for your own team, well, that's a bit shady.

 

I'm a gambling man, and so I like the move, but it's really sort of exploiting a weakness in the current system and economic conditions that was not meant to be exploited.

[Ranger]

It's smart maneuvering, but it's borderline unethical given the current economic situation. By offering arbitration to a player in this economic climate, you make him somewhat undesirable as a FA because the team that signs him has to surrender an unprotected draft choice. This is fine and all, if you are trying to work within the spirit of the rules and keep the player for the betterment of your team. However, if you're doing it just because you know the player will eventually be signed and you'll receive a draft pick as compensation, all the while not wanting that player's services for your own team, well, that's a bit shady.

 

I'm a gambling man, and so I like the move, but it's really sort of exploiting a weakness in the current system and economic conditions that was not meant to be exploited.

 

 

That's what agents are for.

 

And, besides, when the Sox offered him arbitration, the economic landscape really hadn't taken hold at that point in the offseason. It wasn't known just how difficult it would be for some players to get jobs or to make the kind of money they would've made in prior years. People may have known it would be rough, but I'm not sure they knew just how rough.

 

What the Sox did is not unethical. It's part of the game and if your team didn't try to take advantage of the system as it is, you probably wouldn't be happy about it. And it isn't as if there was no risk to the Sox. Cabrera would've been well within his rights to say, "fine, I'll take the deal." Again, his agent should've advised him of that.

[iamshack]

That's what agents are for.

 

And, besides, when the Sox offered him arbitration, the economic landscape really hadn't taken hold at that point in the offseason. It wasn't known just how difficult it would be for some players to get jobs or to make the kind of money they would've made in prior years. People may have known it would be rough, but I'm not sure they knew just how rough.

 

What the Sox did is not unethical. It's part of the game and if your team didn't try to take advantage of the system as it is, you probably wouldn't be happy about it. And it isn't as if there was no risk to the Sox. Cabrera would've been well within his rights to say, "fine, I'll take the deal." Again, his agent should've advised him of that.

 

I agree with the first two points.

 

To your last point, I said it was borderline unethical. If Cabrera accepts arbitration, and the White Sox do indeed bench him, you don't think that it could have rather large ramifications on the guy's career?

[WCSox]

I agree with the first two points.

 

To your last point, I said it was borderline unethical. If Cabrera accepts arbitration, and the White Sox do indeed bench him, you don't think that it could have rather large ramifications on the guy's career?

 

Given how much money these players make and the pension/health care plans that they get, it's difficult for me to get upset at an organization for playing hardball with them on occasion.

 

[iamshack]

Given how much money these players make and the pension/health care plans that they get, it's difficult for me to get upset at an organization for playing hardball with them on occasion.

Oh, I agree. I'm not sympathizing with Cabrera here. All I am saying is that what the Sox did in regards to him last year was exploiting the rule in a manner which was not really envisioned when the rule was created.

 

Due to the current economic conditions and by extension, the value of pre-arb players and draft picks has increased to a point which is higher than envisioned when the FA rule was created (at least in my opinion - obviously I wasn't there when it was). FA's should not be penalized in the marketplace such that it actually diminishes their ability to sign a lucrative contract.

[BurlyMan56]

I still find it hard to believe Luis Terrero, Andy Gonzalez and Brent Lillibridge all were payed to play major league baseball. I remember Hawk saying something along the lines of this about Luis Terrero. "I talked to a scout the other day regarding Luis and he said there are 29 other ball clubs that would love to have a Luis Terrero. This guy has all the tools and potential to be a good ball player"

[iamshack]

I still find it hard to believe Luis Terrero, Andy Gonzalez and Brent Lillibridge all were payed to play major league baseball. I remember Hawk saying something along the lines of this about Luis Terrero. "I talked to a scout the other day regarding Luis and he said there are 29 other ball clubs that would love to have a Luis Terrero. This guy has all the tools and potential to be a good ball player"

Terrero actually had some pretty insane tools. Big power, speed, big arm...he just couldn't hit major league pitching with any kind of consistency.

[WCSox]

Oh, I agree. I'm not sympathizing with Cabrera here. All I am saying is that what the Sox did in regards to him last year was exploiting the rule in a manner which was not really envisioned when the rule was created.

 

Due to the current economic conditions and by extension, the value of pre-arb players and draft picks has increased to a point which is higher than envisioned when the FA rule was created (at least in my opinion - obviously I wasn't there when it was). FA's should not be penalized in the marketplace such that it actually diminishes their ability to sign a lucrative contract.

 

I see what you're saying, but the market isn't going to be favorable to free agents 100% of the time, nor should that be expected in a free market system. Especially considering how salaries exploded during the '90s. Free agents got theirs back then, thanks to the MLBPA screaming bloody murder whenever a salary cap was brought up during CBA negotiations. Not that the owners are without culpability (*cough* collusion *cough*), but given their contentious history with the MLBPA, it should be expected that a franchise will use a severe recession to its economic advantage. That's just the cost of doing business.

 

That said, I have no problem with setting a rookie salary cap to protect veteran salaries. But as long as the MLBPA does, aging vets with diminishing skills like Cabrera are going to get the short end of the stick every once in a while.

 

Terrero actually had some pretty insane tools. Big power, speed, big arm...he just couldn't hit major league pitching with any kind of consistency.

 

Yep, Terrero was hitting the snot out of the ball when he came up in '07. I saw him absolutely swat a pitch over the left field wall at Safeco. I don't think that the ball was even on its downslope by the time that it hit the seats.

 

[gatnom]

Yep, Terrero was hitting the snot out of the ball when he came up in '07. I saw him absolutely swat a pitch over the left field wall at Safeco. I don't think that the ball was even on its downslope by the time that it hit the seats.

 

I seem to remember him hitting a home run ridiculously deep into the stands at the cell, like a few rows short of the concourse type deep.

[Dick Allen]

Oh, I agree. I'm not sympathizing with Cabrera here. All I am saying is that what the Sox did in regards to him last year was exploiting the rule in a manner which was not really envisioned when the rule was created.

 

Due to the current economic conditions and by extension, the value of pre-arb players and draft picks has increased to a point which is higher than envisioned when the FA rule was created (at least in my opinion - obviously I wasn't there when it was). FA's should not be penalized in the marketplace such that it actually diminishes their ability to sign a lucrative contract.

He always could have accepted the arbitration and been in line for a $10 million-$11 million contract. The Sox could have waived him and paid 20%, but if he didn't show a decline in skill in spring training there would have been a grievance filed and a good chance he would collect his money.

[simba43]

I seem to remember him hitting a home run ridiculously deep into the stands at the cell, like a few rows short of the concourse type deep.

I saw him the other day serving hot dogs at the YMCA

[Leonard Zelig]

I saw him the other day serving hot dogs at the YMCA

 

Are you still staying there? Is it as fun as they say?