And so would Comedian (and Rorschach to a lesser extent, IMO). That book/movie would be a great topic for discussion on moral ambiguity.

 

I think you could throw Dr. Manhattan into that mix as well, although eventually he became more amoral/above morality at the human perspective.

I thought about Watchmen characters, but I thought that not many people would get the reference.

 

Ow hell, there's a $hitload of you geek-types on this site.

 

The same argument could be made for several of the above, basically all of the archetypal vigilantes. But the ability to rationalize away moral dilemmas to your own satisfaction doesn't mean the rationale carries weight with society at large. The hallmark of these characters as sociopaths is going to be the personal moral relativism that allows them to behave the way they do.

 

But that's why I don't find him to be morally ambiguous. It's pretty clear cut where it would stand based on what you are putting him in.

I thought about Watchmen characters, but I thought that not many people would get the reference.

I dunno. It's pretty much the Citizen Kane of graphic novels for whatever that's worth.

Edited February 9, 201016 yr by Thunderbolt

But that's why I don't find him to be morally ambiguous. It's pretty clear cut where it would stand based on what you are putting him in.

 

My assumption in this exercise is that it is society's mores that define moral acceptability and ambiguity, and not those of the sociopath in question.

Bart Simpson

Yeah. . . I wasn't really talking to you.

 

 

In that case, I decline as well...

Weak one: Dr. Cox of Scrubs

Better one: Snape of Harry Potter

Sammy Sosa

Holden Caulfield

In that case, I decline as well...

 

Rats. . .

 

When did this become the sexually ambiguous thread?

Holden Caulfield

 

Antihero, yes. Morally ambiguous. . . open for discussion.

Sherlock Holmes (the original from A.C. Doyle, not Robert Downey Jr.)

Better one: Snape of Harry Potter

 

Isn't it pretty clear by HP7 where he stands?

Isn't it pretty clear by HP7 where he stands?

 

That only means he ultimately found redemption. As a former Death Eater during Voldemort's first reign, I'd say he qualifies for moral ambiguity.

 

Did we read the same book? Where he was always working with dumbledore out of love for HPs Mamai, and then protects the boy throughout his entire life? Was it ever written expressly that he killed for Voldemort? I don't remember it.

Did we read the same book? Where he was always working with dumbledore out of love for HPs Mamai, and then protects the boy throughout his entire life? Was it ever written expressly that he killed for Voldemort? I don't remember it.

 

Some of us read them more closely is all.

 

Snape was a Death Eater. Killing for Voldemort is never indicated as a prerequisite for becoming a Death Eater, or Draco Malfoy would not have become a full-fledged Death eater in his father's stead in HBP. The penseive flashbacks on Goblet of Fire portray Karkaroff on trial singling Snape out as a Death Eater, and this is confirmed by Dumbledore who also adds that Snape renounced Voldemort prior to his fall (His love for Lilly bears directly on this, naturally). The current-day events of Goblet indicate that Karkaroff, Snape, and other former Death Eaters are feeling the pull of a newly returned Voldemort via the burning of their Death Eater marks, etc.

 

That Snape was able to deceive Voldemort into believing him to still be loyal is not only a testament to the occlumency prowess of Snape, but obviously to a past history in which Snape must have been wholly devoted to the Dark Lord.

 

Yes, by the time of Voldemort's demise immediately prior to the beginning of Book 1, Snape had been put on a path of redemption aided by Dumbledore. But the need for redemption comes from the dark past that Snape spent the rest of his life trying to atone for.

 

Maybe the distinction between a morally ambiguous character who continues down a path of moral ambiguity and an antihero seeking salvation for past sins is the dichotomy we are wrestling with here, yes?

Edited February 9, 201016 yr by FlaSoxxJim

I unno, it's hard for me to call Snape ambiguous he showed altruism constantly and never seemed to personally have a moral failing. Being a death eater might have merely, and likely, been out of self preservation. And that self preservation led to the saving of the boy who killed the dark wizard.

Sandra Bullock's character in The Proposal

Al Swearengen from Deadwood

 

(also one of the all-time best characters from any show)

I unno, it's hard for me to call Snape ambiguous he showed altruism constantly and never seemed to personally have a moral failing. Being a death eater might have merely, and likely, been out of self preservation. And that self preservation led to the saving of the boy who killed the dark wizard.

 

Self-preservation had nothing to do with saving Harry — either time. As per Deathly Hallows, Snape was a Death Eater until he overheard Trelawney give her prophesy to Dumbledore. Once he realized Voldemort's interpretation of the prophesy meant the death of his love Lilly Potter (as well as Harry and James who mattered little to Snape), he sought out Dumbledore to beg him to save Lilly. Dumbledore asked Snape what he would do/give to save Lilly, and Snape said, "Anything." Only then did he become "Dumbledore's Man", and prior to that he was as morally corrupted as the rest of Voldemort's followers.

Al Swearengen from Deadwood

 

(also one of the all-time best characters from any show)

Oh man, great one there. Love Ian McShane and that character.

The Sheriff in Deadwood, Seth Bullock, also would qualify I suppose.

I don't care for Timothy Olyphant nearly as much as McShane.

I think a really good one would be John Travoltas character in Swordfish. I also think Claire Daines character in Brokedown Palace could fit the category.

Oh man, great one there. Love Ian McShane and that character.

The Sheriff in Deadwood, Seth Bullock, also would qualify I suppose.

I don't care for Timothy Olyphant nearly as much as McShane.

I'm currently rewatching Deadwood. It's easy to forget how great McShane is in it, but his character really makes the show. I don't mind Olyphant much, but it's clear that his character doesn't even compare to Swearengen.

 

Also, it amazes me how underrated Deadwood is. Such a fantastic series.

Edited February 9, 201016 yr by Felix

I'm currently rewatching Deadwood. It's easy to forget how great McShane is in it, but his character really makes the show. I don't mind Olyphant much, but it's clear that his character doesn't even compare to Swearengen.

 

Also, it amazes me how underrated Deadwood is. Such a fantastic series.

I couldn't agree more.

 

I think I might have to do some ebay hunting tonight...