Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[Balta1701]

From purely an economic standpoint, what is the difference between legal and illegal immigration?

Because of worker protections, legal immigration is more expensive to employers. If they qualify for public services, it can also be more expensive for taxpayers...however, if they're being paid under the table or with cash, then they could also begin paying taxes on currently untaxed income.

 

We're also spending $20 billion a year trying to enforce the difference between the 2, which is probably the single biggest cost on the list.

[Texsox]

My biggest concerns about the harsher penalties for companies.

 

You don't prosecute a retail store for accepting a counterfeit bill, so prosecuting a company for accepting a counterfeit social security card or birth certificate seems wrong also.

 

Putting innocent people out of work because the guy in the mail room and six guys on the factory floor turned out to be illegal doesn't seem right.

 

Illegals pay thousands of dollars to arrive here to work. There is money to be made getting them the documents to get these jobs.

 

The enforcement. It's easy to target a huge processing plant like Swift, but how do you investigate the tens of thousands of small companies that hire less than 10 employees?

 

We need to have a guest worker program, tied to jobs, where businesses can hire immigrants for low paying jobs. Currently it is too expensive to hire immigrants legally for entry level jobs. So we have a system where it makes sense for an accountant from India, a doctor from the Philippians, or an Italian tool and die maker to immigrate here and take a job paying $$$$ but they have to hire an American to take care of their landscaping and be their nanny.

[Balta1701]

Technically, if a business were to accept a bunch of counterfeit bills, aren't they basically SOL, in terms of not getting that money?

[mr_genius]

My biggest concerns about the harsher penalties for companies.

 

they have decided to run an illegal operation, they should accept the consequences.

 

You don't prosecute a retail store for accepting a counterfeit bill, so prosecuting a company for accepting a counterfeit social security card or birth certificate seems wrong also.

 

they knowingly hire illegally. it is cheaper and saves them money.

 

We need to have a guest worker program, tied to jobs, where businesses can hire immigrants for low paying jobs.

 

hire local, legal workers. if they can't afford to do so they should re-evaluate their business plan. McDonalds had like a million applicants for 50,000 low paying jobs.

Edited May 28, 2011 by mr_genius

[mr_genius]

Technically, if a business were to accept a bunch of counterfeit bills, aren't they basically SOL, in terms of not getting that money?

 

I would assume so, otherwise these same types of businesses running illegal operations would just print out fake money, buy their own products, and have the Feds reimburse them for their 'hardship' of getting counterfeit money.

Edited May 28, 2011 by mr_genius

[Texsox]

Yes, they are sol on the money but we also do not then arrest the owner for counterfeiting or the clerk for engaging in counterfeiting activities. The difference is "knowingly hiring". Of course there are some companies that are knowingly hiring illegals, but there are many thousands more that are not knowingly hiring them. The workers arrive with driver's licenses and social security cards. Some are fake, some are borrowed. That is the majority of the workers. Are we going to shut down a farm because they were fooled by a counterfeit birth certificate? Shut down a Title company because a guy in the mail room used someone else's driver's license and social security card? Once we start litigating "knowingly" we're going to be spending a lot of time and money.

 

Again, the reason this has gotten huge again, even after that great GOP President Reagan granted amnesty, is money. For the government, it is less low income workers collecting benefits, for the companies, it is a ready pool or workers willing to work jobs that Americans do not want to work. Imagine at a commencement address the speaker saying, we've educated you for 12 years, kid here's your diploma now follow the crops like nomads, living in shacks and picking crops as they come into season. Grab that dish towel and get into that kitchen and wash some dishes. Grab the handle of that rake and start landscaping that legal immigrant's home. Grab a knife and start processing carcasses in that slaughterhouse.

 

Immigrants sowed the tobacco fields of Jamestown, creating the first boomtown in America. Immigrants planted, tended, and picked cotton in the south, creating a second boomtown in our history. Immigrants built the Erie Canal, linking the great lakes with New York, Immigrants died by the thousands building the transcontinental railroad. Immigrants have fought our wars and built our skylines. We have taught for generations the immigrant story through the eyes of Europeans who arrived through New York. Perhaps if generations of kids learned our immigration heritage by studying the Asians that arrived through San Francisco or the Hispanics that walked here or who became Americans when the border suddenly moved through war or treaty we would have a better collective memory of the American story.

[mr_genius]

Are we going to shut down a farm because they were fooled by a counterfeit birth certificate? Shut down a Title company because a guy in the mail room used someone else's driver's license and social security card? Once we start litigating "knowingly" we're going to be spending a lot of time and money.

 

for repeat offenders? heck yea shut them down, and charge the owner with a felony. sucking at running a business is not a valid excuse to having an illegal operation. if you constantly hire illegal workers, on accident, you obviously do not have the needed skills to run a business. these guys are found guilty of this over and over, but they just keep doing it. the cheap labor is very profitable.

 

Grab that dish towel and get into that kitchen and wash some dishes. Grab the handle of that rake and start landscaping that legal immigrant's home. Grab a knife and start processing carcasses in that slaughterhouse.

 

better than no job. people will take these jobs, but they won't work for the same price as an illegal work force. just look at the turnout for low paid McDonalds jobs, but those were at least minimum wage.

 

now if have suddenly become a hard line Libertarian, and you want to remove all worker protections (including minimum wage) and have a total free for all open-boarders no government mad max economy, so be it. but I am against that.

 

Immigrants sowed the tobacco fields of Jamestown, creating the first boomtown in America. Immigrants planted, tended, and picked cotton in the south, creating a second boomtown in our history. Immigrants built the Erie Canal, linking the great lakes with New York, Immigrants died by the thousands building the transcontinental railroad. Immigrants have fought our wars and built our skylines. We have taught for generations the immigrant story through the eyes of Europeans who arrived through New York. Perhaps if generations of kids learned our immigration heritage by studying the Asians that arrived through San Francisco or the Hispanics that walked here or who became Americans when the border suddenly moved through war or treaty we would have a better collective memory of the American story.

 

America currently lets in more Immigrants than any other country in the world.

 

[Texsox]

You are ignoring the fact that most illegals that are caught are working for more than minimum wage, they were working for the prevailing wages. Convenience stores that get robbed repeatedly should be put out of business, they obviously have no clue how to run a business. Just having illegals on the payroll should not be the criteria, prosecution should hinge on "knowingly" which will be very expensive to prove.

 

Yes, we allow in accountants, doctors, and all sorts of professionals, but dammit, their gardeners and nannies better be US citizens.

[Texsox]

We certainly can invest tens of millions of dollars in enforcement, perhaps collect millions in fees, force closed hundreds of businesses, putting millions of Americans, illegal and legal, out of work. I wonder if that will really be in our best interest. Or we could put together a guest worker program, allowing for unskilled immigrants to work here legally.

[mr_genius]

You are ignoring the fact that most illegals that are caught are working for more than minimum wage, they were working for the prevailing wages.

 

then they can find legal workers. problem solved. if they can't find low skilled workers in this economy, give up and do something else. again, this shows me a lack of business skills, not a need for illegal workers.

 

Convenience stores that get robbed repeatedly should be put out of business, they obviously have no clue how to run a business.

 

that is a bad analogy. a better analogy would be a convenience store that sells cocaine gets busted. illegal activity, just like using illegal workers. these people hiring illegals are not victims, if anything, they are criminals.

 

prosecution should hinge on "knowingly"

 

no, it should not.

Edited May 29, 2011 by mr_genius

[Texsox]

So if you accept a counterfeit birth certificate or a social security card for someone other than who it was issued for, you should be charged and your business closed? Come on. How is it any different than accepting a counterfeit bill? There are thousands of different birth certificates issues by towns, counties, and states. There is only one twenty dollar bill. Yet a business should be an expert on birth certificates but not American currency?

[mr_genius]

So if you accept a counterfeit birth certificate or a social security card for someone other than who it was issued for, you should be charged and your business closed? Come on.

 

if they are chronic offenders yes. if they are having problems, they need to hire someone, or get some advice, on how to become a competent and lawful organization.

 

How is it any different than accepting a counterfeit bill?

 

because getting fooled and trading goods for a counterfeit bill is not illegal. it is illegal to make the bill. it is different because the vendor did not commit a crime. when hiring an illegal worker you have committed a crime. your 'counterfeit bill' analogy you keep using is not viable.

[Balta1701]

for repeat offenders? heck yea shut them down, and charge the owner with a felony. sucking at running a business is not a valid excuse to having an illegal operation. if you constantly hire illegal workers, on accident, you obviously do not have the needed skills to run a business. these guys are found guilty of this over and over, but they just keep doing it. the cheap labor is very profitable.

FWIW, this would mean that every Walmart in the country would have been shut down by the government as Walmart was a serial employer of Illegals.

[mr_genius]

FWIW, this would mean that every Walmart in the country would have been shut down by the government as Walmart was a serial employer of Illegals.

 

good. if they constantly hire illegal workers, get caught, continue to hire illegals the store should be shut down and if it's endemic of the entire organization and they refuse to fix the problem they should not be allowed to operate.

 

the execs that knew about it should have been charged.

[Texsox]

There are somewhere close to 10,000,000 undocumented workers in America. How many different companies are they working for? Are you really going to spend all the time and money to bring those employers to justice? And my analogy is valid. Illegals walk in with real social security cards and (usually) counterfeit birth certificate. Do you really think someone can be an expert on every local, county, and state birth certificate? Do you really think Walmart knows someone is here illegally and hires them anyway?

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

There are somewhere close to 10,000,000 undocumented workers in America. How many different companies are they working for? Are you really going to spend all the time and money to bring those employers to justice? And my analogy is valid. Illegals walk in with real social security cards and (usually) counterfeit birth certificate. Do you really think someone can be an expert on every local, county, and state birth certificate? Do you really think Walmart knows someone is here illegally and hires them anyway?

 

It would still be trillions cheaper than legalization

[Balta1701]

It would still be trillions cheaper than legalization

A number just as made up as last time.

[kapkomet]

A number just as made up as last time.

 

 

lemme blog about it... then it will be true.

[Texsox]

It would still be trillions cheaper than legalization

Which is why the government has allowed this issue to exist for a hundred years. The only way for it to cost less is to create a guest worker program with a smaller benefit list than currently offered to legal workers.

[Balta1701]

Which is why the government has allowed this issue to exist for a hundred years. The only way for it to cost less is to create a guest worker program with a smaller benefit list than currently offered to legal workers.

They've allowed it to exist for 100 years because it's the only way we can keep those dirty lazy Irish Japs Slavs mexicans out.

[Jenksismyhero]

since this has become the Immigration Thread, here's some more bulls*** from this awful state of Illinois:

 

http://articles.chicagobreakingnews.com/20...igher-education

 

(1) why does the gov't need to be involved in private donations?

 

(2) not costing a dime is bulls***, because they're using a state-funded group to manage it

 

(3) wtf are we allowing illegal immigrants societal benefits like the college cost savings plan?

 

I understand (though don't necessarily agree) with the idea that we shouldn't punish children for their parents' illegal acts. But that's what makes #3 infuriating to me. We do absolutely nothing in this country to keep people from immigrating here illegally.

[bmags]

excellent bill.

[mr_genius]

(2) not costing a dime is bulls***, because they're using a state-funded group to manage it

 

it will cost billions. Quinn is full of it. Just like his 'Budget Cuts'. When he actually increased spending, but cut his 'Original Budget'. Which is not a spending cut.

Edited June 2, 2011 by mr_genius

[StrangeSox]

SB1070 ruling today, 9th circuit reversed in part and affirmed in part.

 

Most of the key provisions (3 of 4) are invalid.

 

edit2: but not "check your papers," though the court isn't closing off any other challenges to that aspect in the future.

 

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-1179h9j3.pdf

Edited June 25, 2012 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

The Supreme Court has issued 5-3 decision in favor of U.S. government, with Justice Kennedy saying that the government has significant power to regulate immigration and while Arizona may have signifacnt frustrations they may not have policies that undermine federal law.

 

This is a win for the federal government and a loss for Arizona.