Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[Balta1701]

Figured I'd wait to post this until we actually saw if the Governor signed it. She did.

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed a state bill Friday that requires police to determine whether a person is in the United States legally, which critics say will foster racial profiling and discrimination but supporters say will crack down on illegal immigration.

 

The Republican governor also issued an executive order that would require additional training for local officers on how to implement the law without engaging in racial profiling.

 

...

The bill requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.

 

Previously, officers could check someone's immigration status if the person is suspected in another crime.

If I wasn't white, I wouldn't drive through Arizona after this without my passport, they might not like an out of state driver's license. Come to think of it, I'm not going to Arizona.

 

"And I will own a recreational vehicle. And I will drive from state to state. Do they let you do that? No Papers?"

[NorthSideSox72]

Figured I'd wait to post this until we actually saw if the Governor signed it. She did.

If I wasn't white, I wouldn't drive through Arizona after this without my passport, they might not like an out of state driver's license. Come to think of it, I'm not going to Arizona.

 

"And I will own a recreational vehicle. And I will drive from state to state. Do they let you do that? No Papers?"

I would like to have seen Montana.

 

[Balta1701]

I would like to have seen Montana.

I'm glad I saw the Grand Canyon when I did. Shame I didn't get to Spring Training.

[EvilMonkey]

 

The bill requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally

 

So, if they pull over an old van packed with 14 hispanic looking people in it for speeding, nobody speaks english and they don't have a drivers license or state issued ID, you don't want them asking if they really belong here?

[G&T]

The bill requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally

 

So, if they pull over an old van packed with 14 hispanic looking people in it for speeding, nobody speaks english and they don't have a drivers license or state issued ID, you don't want them asking if they really belong here?

 

You needed a law to question in that situation?

 

The question will be, what does "reason to suspect" mean. My guess would be just beyond the level to make an inquiry. So, if a cop sees a brown guy looking over his shoulder the cop can approach and inquire as to what he's doing or where he is going. If the cop doesn't like the answer, he can ask for papers.

Edited April 23, 2010 by G&T

[EvilMonkey]

You needed a law to question in that situation?

 

Actually, yeah, you probably DO need a law that allows them to ask that. otherwise LaRaza and the ACLU would be howling with indignation every time a latino was asked for ID during a traffic stop. They will still howl, but now they can point to a law that lets them do it.

[farmteam]

That's not the point though. The point is that, as written (or perhaps more accurately, as what is reportedly written), this law gives local authorities WAY too much leeway in whom they can ask for papers from. And that's not even touching whether or not this law is even within a state's jurisdiction.

[farmteam]

Also, in reference to the traffic stop, if the scenario you posted occurred, and the driver could not produce a valid driver's license, then they would be charged with a crime, and if my understanding of the old law is correct, would have allowed them to follow up on whether or not the person was an illegal immigrant.

[StrangeSox]

The bill requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally

 

So, if they pull over an old van packed with 14 hispanic looking people in it for speeding, nobody speaks english and they don't have a drivers license or state issued ID, you don't want them asking if they really belong here?

 

You really think your given scenario will be the only time this is used?

 

If you're brown, don't drive in AZ. Unless you want to be harassed.

[G&T]

Actually, yeah, you probably DO need a law that allows them to ask that. otherwise LaRaza and the ACLU would be howling with indignation every time a latino was asked for ID during a traffic stop. They will still howl, but now they can point to a law that lets them do it.

 

Because every Latino drives with a van full of other Latinos who can't speak English and can't produce licenses?

 

In your scenario such a request for documentation would be constitutionally permissible. The scenario they are after is the one I posted.

[kapkomet]

I'm glad I saw the Grand Canyon when I did. Shame I didn't get to Spring Training.

 

Really? You're too immigranty?

[kapkomet]

You really think your given scenario will be the only time this is used?

 

If you're brown, don't drive in AZ. Unless you want to be harassed.

 

 

Hey look! A straw man arguement!

 

 

I'm kidding. I actually agree with you all on this one that this law goes WAY too far. I agree with the principle, but totally disagree with the implementation.

[G&T]

That's not the point though. The point is that, as written (or perhaps more accurately, as what is reportedly written), this law gives local authorities WAY too much leeway in whom they can ask for papers from. And that's not even touching whether or not this law is even within a state's jurisdiction.

 

Yeah this is thorny. The feds have plenary power over immigration so I thought there was field preemption. But I think the argument would be that this is criminal procedure. They aren't charging the person (that would be the feds). Only mandating that the police make inquiry where reasonable suspicion exists.

[southsider2k5]

Ah yes, distraction from the fact that the Federal government has completely failed in the area of immigration for generations now.

[StrangeSox]

That doesn't excuse this ridiculous policy.

[clyons]

"Men fight for freedom, then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves."

 

I'd never be asked to produce my "papers" because I'm WASPY, but as I understand this law, if I don't have my drivers' license on me, I'd be subject to arrest depending upon the good-faith belief of the police that I might be illegal. That makes me uncomfortable.

Edited April 24, 2010 by PlaySumFnJurny

[CrimsonWeltall]

Breaking news: Sheriff Joe Arpaio has just filed for over 1,000,000 arrest warrants

[Balta1701]

"Men fight for freedom, then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves."

 

I'd never be asked to produce my "papers" because I'm WASPY, but as I understand this law, if I don't have my drivers' license on me, I'd be subject to arrest depending upon the good-faith belief of the police that I might be illegal. That makes me uncomfortable.

If the state of Arizona doesn't want an obvious discrimination lawsuit every time they arrest someone who is latino and isn't an illegal immigrant, then they're going to have to actually make sure that they arrest some white people just to make the numbers look better.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm all for the demand-side changes, and penalties being made more severe for hiring or transporting illegals. But I agree with the majority here, the police intervention aspect of this bill is scary-vague. It allows for far too much abuse.

 

[kapkomet]

If the state of Arizona doesn't want an obvious discrimination lawsuit every time they arrest someone who is latino and isn't an illegal immigrant, then they're going to have to actually make sure that they arrest some white people just to make the numbers look better.

 

Yes. I agree.

 

/faints

[mr_genius]

Breaking news: Sheriff Joe Arpaio has just filed for over 1,000,000 arrest warrants

 

haha

[BigSqwert]

"This week, Arizona signed the toughest illegal immigration law in the country which will allow police to demand identification papers from anyone they suspect is in the country illegally. I know there’s some people in Arizona worried that Obama is acting like Hitler, but could we all agree that there’s nothing more Nazi than saying "Show me your papers?" There’s never been a World War II movie that didn’t include the line "show me your papers." It’s their catchphrase. Every time someone says "show me your papers," Hitler’s family gets a residual check. So heads up, Arizona; that’s fascism. I know, I know, it’s a dry fascism, but it’s still fascism." --Seth Meyers

[Middle Buffalo]

Arizona is the state that previously refused to acknowledge Martin Luther King's holiday, and it's the state that recently voted overwhelmingly to recognize English as the official language. If you believe that it's the "illegal" part of "illegal immigrant" that worries Arizonans, you're wrong. This all has to do with the color of the skin of the people in question.

[jasonxctf]

if i understand the law correctly, the following could happen.

 

A hispanic guy is walking back to an apartment building with groceries. A police officer says, hmmm, he may be illegal.

He could pull up to the guy and ask him for his papers to prove he's a citizen.

 

Is this correct? There is no "probable cause" just suspicion.

[NorthSideSox72]

if i understand the law correctly, the following could happen.

 

A hispanic guy is walking back to an apartment building with groceries. A police officer says, hmmm, he may be illegal.

He could pull up to the guy and ask him for his papers to prove he's a citizen.

 

Is this correct? There is no "probable cause" just suspicion.

That will be a key question in any legal questions. Probable cause still needs to be the rule, so if this law works on "suspicion", it probably won't survive a legal test.