Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[Balta1701]

Walking outside isn't suspicious enough. What would your argument be? He looks illegal so I reasonable suspected him to be illegal? Come on. Let's use common sense here.

Oh come on, you know full well that a police officer in a public area has nearly unlimited power to decide that a person looks suspicious.

[Jenksismyhero]

Oh come on, you know full well that a police officer in a public area has nearly unlimited power to decide that a person looks suspicious.

 

of being illegal? how? what's your criteria? any competent defense attorney (and judge) would get that thrown out instantly. I can't imagine there's much on the books about what an illegal alien looks like. He's got to be doing something, probably in concert with other people, in a specific setting, etc.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Jenksismybitch

[BigSqwert]

Oh come on, you know full well that a police officer in a public area has nearly unlimited power to decide that a person looks suspicious.

I couldn't imagine Sheriff Joe Arpaio and his henchmen would ever do something like that.

 

A little insight from an Arizonian:

I’ve avoided getting involved in the kind of activist politics I’m used to, and it’s because I’m afraid of drawing local attention (Sheriff Joe Arpaio and the rest of them) to my kids. I’ve never had this feeling before; the authorities here are absolutely lawless. Look up "Arpaio" in archive articles at Phoenix's New Times and you'll see what I mean.

 

The MCSO (Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office) uses physical intimidation against anyone they see as a critic. They’ve parked unmarked cars across the street from the home of the State Attorney General (Terry Goddard). Maricopa County residents have paid tens of millions in lawsuit settlements because of use of force in Arpaio’s lockup (a tent city, inmates forced to wear pink underwear-- not kidding).

 

Item: Last year Arpaio and County Attorney Andy Thomas filed a civil RICO lawsuit against all the Maricopa County Supervisors, four of the state Judges for the Maricopa County jurisdiction, plus various county employees, supposedly over corruption in building a new courthouse office building in Phoenix. (Dropped 2 weeks ago, Thomas resigned and is running for state AG.) Not one shred of evidence was ever offered. Item: County Supervisor Don Stapley was arrested in the county parking structure in Phoenix and booked, because they filed charges against him related to non-disclosure of financial transactions on disclosure forms.

[Balta1701]

of being illegal? how? what's your criteria? any competent defense attorney (and judge) would get that thrown out instantly. I can't imagine there's much on the books about what an illegal alien looks like. He's got to be doing something, probably in concert with other people, in a specific setting, etc.

Because if there's one thing illegal immigrants have...it's competent, high-priced defense attorneys.

[Rex Kickass]

Because if there's one thing illegal immigrants have...it's competent, high-priced defense attorneys.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Wrong. Only after "lawful contact" can they then get to the "reasonable suspicion" part. It's not circumventing anything. As written they cannot just simply walk up to every brown person and ask for proof of their status.

Wrong? You are ignoring what I was pointing out, and what G&T further described. Its not how they get to reasonable suspicion that is the problem - its what happens after that. No one other than you is focusing here on the reasonable suspicion criteria, because that's not the issue. The problem is the law wants action from police based on reasonable suspicion that normally requires probable cause.

 

[BigSqwert]

What a wonderful law.

 

PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

 

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

 

He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”

 

3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.

 

Jackie tells 3TV, “It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal.”

 

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

 

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

 

Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He's legit. It's the first time it's ever happened.”

 

Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option

[EvilMonkey]

Btw, liked this one:

They are probably the same place NOW is whenever Clinton was messing with Lewinski, or wherever Nancy hides when yet another Democrat gets exposed to the light of day in her most ethical congress evah.

[NorthSideSox72]

What a wonderful law.

This is exactly the situation that I think will not stand a court test, nor should it. A guy gets pulled over, shows ID that is OK for everyone else, and yet he's expected to hit a higher bar. He can't, and then he's arrested, without any sort of probable cause (that we are aware of - there may be more to the story). This is embarrasing for Arizona, and this country. It truly is.

 

[EvilMonkey]

For everyone crying about having ailens carry thier 'papers', this is right from the US Code concerning Aliens and Nationality.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/us...8&TYPE=TEXT

 

(e) Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties

 

Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times

carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of

alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him

pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails to

comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a

misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to

exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.

 

[BigSqwert]

This is exactly the situation that I think will not stand a court test, nor should it. A guy gets pulled over, shows ID that is OK for everyone else, and yet he's expected to hit a higher bar. He can't, and then he's arrested, without any sort of probable cause (that we are aware of - there may be more to the story). This is embarrasing for Arizona, and this country. It truly is.

Just wait until more white people that could get mistaken for Hispanic go through things like this. I know I'd be a target if I lived there since I've been mistaken as someone that could be Hispanic on many occasions.

[Rex Kickass]

For everyone crying about having ailens carry thier 'papers', this is right from the US Code concerning Aliens and Nationality.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/us...8&TYPE=TEXT

 

And if you're a citizen but the police officer doesn't believe you?

[NorthSideSox72]

And if you're a citizen but the police officer doesn't believe you?

As the example above shows.

 

[BigSqwert]

The slew of expected boycotts is going to hurt the state. It has already cost Arizona a convention.

 

Just minutes after Brewer signed 1070 into law on Friday, the American Immigration Lawyers' Association canceled their annual fall convention. They had planned to host the September event in Scottsdale.

 

"We can't in good conscious spend the organization's money in a state that's going to pursue these kinds of policies," said Regina Jeffries of the AILA.

 

[G&T]

What a wonderful law.

 

It failed to occur to me that this could impact interstate commerce. That doesn't bode well for the law. Meanwhile, that case shows that the legislature will have to declare certain documents presumptively valid to establish citizenship.

[G&T]

For everyone crying about having ailens carry thier 'papers', this is right from the US Code concerning Aliens and Nationality.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/us...8&TYPE=TEXT

 

That's a federal law. The feds should be adminstering it, not state police.

[Middle Buffalo]

We all know what looks suspicious and what doesn't. And if you can't then you can't harass those people. That's the point. Sure a small percentage of people will get harassed for no good reason, they'll sue, and they'll most likely get compensated. That's how our system works. No different than any other law out there that cops abuse and enforce illegally.

 

My viewpoint on this is talking with my cop buddies who work in the worst areas of Chicago. They're limited in what they can do despite what common sense would dictate. This legislation should have been worded differently, and should have included more detail as to what reasonable suspicion means. But the intent of the law is good, and I don't see much abuse happening that wouldn't happen with any other law.

Here's a very real situation that could happen to me.

 

I work with a Mexican guy who recently became a citizen. He doesn't speak English, and he looks like any illegal you might see on the streets here in AZ. And, he's not going to learn English any time soon because he's in his late 50's, and it's not that easy to learn another language late in life. So, he's pretty much always going to fit this profile.

 

If I have him in my car, and I roll through a stop or don't signal (pretty common traffic violations), a cop who see might pull me over. The cop can look in my car and see my friend, and, having "reasonable suspicion" that I have hired a day laborer, start asking questions. If my friend doesn't have the proper id on him, my friend will be detained. Unlawfully. He's an American citizen, but he fits the profile of illegal immigrant. In this case, I could also be cited and have to prove that I am innocent.

 

It's easy for you to say that my friend can sue, etc., but one of the rights we all have is innocent until proven guilty. A passenger who's in my car while I commit a traffic violation has done nothing wrong and shouldn't have to prove it. And neither should I.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

That's a federal law. The feds should be adminstering it, not state police.

While State Police work for and on behalf of the state, they are also expected to work with federal authorities to assist in enforcing their laws where situations present themselves. That of course ends up being a highly subjective and inconsistent expectation, but, its part of the picture for them.

 

[Balta1701]

The slew of expected boycotts is going to hurt the state. It has already cost Arizona a convention.

Phoenix has bids in on both 2012 political conventions.

[NorthSideSox72]

Phoenix has bids in on both 2012 political conventions.

I think we know exactly how that will go.

 

[Balta1701]

Polling data in Arizona suddenly showing a 26 point surge amongst Latino voters for the Dem governor candidate.

 

Even if this law gets overturned...the state of Arizona has a large and rapidly growing Latino population. This bill could easily change the national voting dynamics, as noted in the Kos post I linked to.

[Texsox]

It sounds like if you are brown in Arizona you are now guilty of being here illegally until you can prove you are innocent.

[StrangeSox]

This law is as race-neutral as voting literacy test laws.

[kapkomet]

If they can't "go solely based on race" then this law wouldn't exist and you know that.

 

 

Ok, this thread's grown by 4 pages, and I'm reading through. But, the police have to have someone detailed and can't just stop someone based on finding out their citizenship.

[StrangeSox]

Yes, but we all know the numerous ways they accomplish that. Burnt out taillight, tinted windows, etc.